Flag amendment needs one more vote to pass Senate

Lord Borg · **Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:31 pm**

Political opinions are one thing, but your doing a little more then having an "opinion" on a current "war" or what not when you BURN a flag, that has been used sense the begining of a country's time.

Micteth-Son of Udas · **Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:35 pm**

this is allready protected by the constituion in the frist amendement by a ruling of the supreme court in the case Texas Vs. Johnson in which a man burned a flag on the steps an offical building of the goverment in texas, was arrested, prosicuted, convicted(law at the time was no flag burning in texas), he apealed, a higher court in texas over turned and texas then brought the case to the supreme court

Theresa · **Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:59 am**

You do know what an amendment is, right?

madlilnerd · **Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:15 am**

Old flags should be recycled into reuseable shopping bags to save trees.

[quote]It's wrong and horrifying to burn an effigy of the President, yes, but it's better than taking out your anger in a horribly negative, anti-American way on the American flag.[/quote]

And you know how you're saying how it's awful to burn a flag in an angry attack on the people of america. I'd say it's better to burn a flag to get your anger out than go out and shoot the general public (and I know people who are so anti american that they'd gladly do this).

It's just a piece of fabric, and the only thing that makes it different from every other rectangle on fabric in the world is that you tie it to a pole and worship it as some sort of unholy idol.
It's just a rectangle. Detach yourself from the rectangle.

In the words of my favourite art terrorist:
[img]http://www.artofthestate.co.uk/photos/Banksy_flag_waving.jpg[/img]

Theresa · **Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:20 am**

That's a pretty ridiculous statement, IMO.

BTW, no one, but you, compared burning a flag to shooting people... Thinking a flag is just a piece of cloth is ever so sad.

madlilnerd · **Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:29 am**

How is it "sad" to be detached from a rectangle?
If not worshipping a colourful 2D shape tied to a stick makes me "sad" then I guess I'm "sad".

A flag represents everyone in your country, including all the murderers and conmen and all the bad in a country. I don't carry round a flag because I don't want to be united with people I don't want to be associated with. I'd never actually burn a flag because it's insensitive and disrespectful to flag worshippers (just like throwing eggs at churches or peeling off Sikh bumper stickers).

Theresa · **Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:45 am**

Oh, yes, thank you for brining that up. I'd forgotten to address it.
How is respecting and honoring something "worshipping"?
I'm sure I don't know about how other nations view their flags, but in America, it doesn't just represent the land. It represents the people. All of the soldiers who have given their lives, all of the people who have taken this country, in less than 200 years, from infancy to a world power, etc... If by not associating youself with the "bad guys', you choose to disassociate yourself with the good ones, that's up to you. (But, by walking around as a human, you are associating yourself with other humans, good and bad...) And I've noticed that before, you've used avatars of people, musicians or whatever, that I'm sure other people use to represent themselves. Good and bad. But I guess that's ok?
Another main difference between the US and other countries. We weren't founded on a monarchy, or anything similar, but simply an ideal. And the flag represents that ideal, as well.
A flag is also a standard:

madlilnerd · **Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:51 am**

Oops, I forgot about that rule. Sorry.
I won't do it again.

I won't deny that America has good in it, with all the wonderful things that have developed over there (Rock and roll, medical breakthroughs..etc) and all the amazing surprising things that people do everyday, but when I see the American flag flying I see a symbol of conflict, a superpower founded on blood and slavery. Flags just make me think of war and bad things, because I think flags are somehow... pompus and unnecessary.

Burning flags is to me, not an attack on the people of a nation, but on the pompusness and corruption of their establishment.

Theresa · **Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:32 am**

Hitchhiker · **Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:06 pm**

A flag is just a piece of cloth though!

Yes, it may have special meaning. But it is still just a piece of cloth, and it is the utter pinnacle of capitalistic materialism to place the preservation of cloth over the freedom of human expression.

Human expression isn't worth much these days, of course.

As history demonstrates rather depressingly, humans have happily waged war after war over trivial matters and symbols. Symbols are quite dangerous in that respect, since they can influence human actions so much.

What is a flag, anyway? What happens if someone has an American flag beach towel and chooses to burn that? Is that a crime? Or a t-shirt with the American flag on it? A realistic 3D computer simulation of someone burning a flag? The amendment is rather impractical in this regard.

Why not ban the swastika? Because people have a freedom to use it, to exhibit it, even though yes, it may offend people. But now, to tell people that they don't have the right to freely express their discontent by burning the flag is Anti-American. It goes against what the flag stands for: freedom and liberty.

When freedom of expression dies, so too dies liberty and harmony. No longer can people feel like they are the creators of their own destiny, because suddenly they are able to see the yoke that, up until now, was invisible and easy to forget.

Theresa · **Sun Jun 25, 2006 3:15 pm**

Take a look around you. Does it seem that anyone knows their limits anymore? Slamming planes into the WTC and the Pentagon was AQ's "freedom of expression". In a society that doesn't know when to stop, should the "yoke" be visible? I'd think so. Is that my decision to make? Nope, society is making that decision all by themselves.

A flag itself may be made of a piece of cloth. But that is not what it is. It's the representation of a nation. Sometimes a representation of the soul of a nation. If you don't have a problem with someone walking all over your nation, that's fine. That's up to you. I, however, do have a problem with it. I've posted this ages ago, 80% or so of my family is military. They fought, and some gave their lives to protect what that flag represents. When you walk on it, burn it, spit on it, spurn it, you are doing it to them, not to a piece of cloth. The people burning it don't consider it just a 3'x5' piece of cloth, or they wouldn't be burning it, now would they? They see the stars and stripes as America. Their only purpose in what they do is to incite anger and hostility.

American's in general must have more of a respect for a nations flag than most, I'd have to assume. I don't think I've ever seen a news report, that I can recall, where an American is demonstrating by burning an Israeli flag, etc... I'm sure you can google and find one for me, but the fact that you had to search for it would only go to prove my point.

(You does not only refer to HH, but to anyone. [yes, some comments were in direct answer, but those should be clear])

Micteth-Son of Udas · **Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:40 pm**

im reply to Theresa:
in the court case i mentioned earlier, the guy who was burning the flag was doing it to protest the regan administration, not against those who died for america, yes the flag does represent america, and i see you point, it is a valid one, but this issue is like abortion , some for the law, some not, and i say debating it will not gett anything proven.

madlilnerd · **Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:47 pm**

Founder · **Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:25 pm**

PrankishSmart · **Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:30 am**

Flag burning is what freedom of speech is though it doesn't matter if you or I disagree with it. If the flag was property of someone else it's obvious vandalism, just like colouring the concrete, but it should not go more than that with the law IN MY OPINION.

Theresa · **Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:03 am**

Is there any other 'object' other than the flag that we're told how to take care of in the constitution? (That we can all own as personal property)

TrekkieMage · **Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:35 pm**

My take on the issue is summed up in two words: Red Herring.

All it is is an effort to energize the Republican base. I have not heard of major issues involving flag burning. Nearly all of the major issues I've heard of/seen have had the Republican party on the defensive: this puts them on the offensive.

I belive that American flag deserves a certain amount of respect, but my opinion is that is deserves more that to be a cheap plastic decoration for a car.

I also think that there are much more time sensitive and critical issues that Congress needs to deal with right now.

CJ Cregg · Commodore Joined: 05 Oct 2002 Posts: 1254

Well they voted and it failed by one vote as the prediction stated.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,201308,00.html

Now we wait for 2008 when i expect they put it up for another vote

Starbuck · **Sat Jul 01, 2006 4:52 pm**

I think this is a waste of time, because now demonstrators are just going to burn flags with one or two people and say they're disposing of it. Its not going to stop anyone from doing anything, so why bother? There have been many valid arguments in here. People DIED for our right to wave that flag and call it ours, but is banning it really going to do anything?

Cathexis · **Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:50 pm**