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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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 Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:43 pm |
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| LightningBoy wrote: | Is it smart to send a FEMA convoy through the hurricane? No. You have to wait for the hurricane to dissipate before you can send in effective help. Not only in New Orleans, but that Hurricane still existed to the north, blocking off Louisiana for a few days after it hit New Orleans.
I would say that there was some delay with the cure, but the prevention wasn't there at all. They could've evacuated, they could've saved lives, it was in the hands of local government. The levy rebuilding is moot, it wouldn't have helped, and it would've ended up being a waste of money anyways. The problem here were a lack of preparation in local government. They should've had an evacuation plan, they should've moved everyone out of there two days before it hit. Blanco should've called in more than 6000 national guardsmen to be prepared for this. FEMA was late, but frankly, FEMA should not have been expected to be the first line of help. FEMA had to wait.
The busses were there, it's hard to ignore that. Nobody should've been in that Superdome either. |
Exactly. There were SO MANY buses and yet they were not used. Also, the mayor didn't even enforce the mandatory evacuation. Boy do I wish that I could post O'Reilly's commentary...
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:41 pm |
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| LightningBoy wrote: | | Is it smart to send a FEMA convoy through the hurricane? No. You have to wait for the hurricane to dissipate before you can send in effective help. Not only in New Orleans, but that Hurricane still existed to the north, blocking off Louisiana for a few days after it hit New Orleans. |
Katrina came ashore at 6AM Monday morning. At approximately 11AM, Brown sent the memo to Chertoff asking his approval for FEMA to get involved. At that point Katrina was pounding the Gulf Coast, and approximately the time that the first breech occurred, which flooded the 9th Ward. It was a full 48 hours after Blanco had requested FEMA assistance--in advance of the storm. Resources could have been moved into place directly outside the storm perimeter, ready to move in when it passed.
24 hours later, the 2 other levees had breached, the worst-case-scenario had come to pass, and FEMA's response still was minimal. And Katrina was all the way up in Tennessee, now a tropical depression.
3 days later, Katrina had died a natural death over Canada, and thousands of people were dying unnatural deaths all across the Gulf Coast, and the federal response was still nowhere to be seen.
This is America, folks. That is *not* the best we can do.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:10 pm |
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You can point blame all over the place, but the fact is that MOST of the blame goes to Blanco, and in the case of New Orleans, Blanco and Nagin. It's so blatently obvious.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:06 am |
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There's enough "blame" to be spread around equally 3.14159265 times over.  You can trade blame and point fingers all you want, but it's really quite irrelevant.
The point is that the potential for blame exists in the first place! The point is that while living, breathing people are suffering, hungry, dying, or injured because of a natural disaster, their own government is too inept to help them. The blame doesn't belong with one agency, one person, or one administration. It belongs to the fact that every facet of the operation, each agency, person, and administration, are too caught up in blame-pointing, blame-evading, and political maneuvering to actually get anything done.
It's the same story with most other events, be they natural disasters or national security--each organisation and department of the government is too busy competing with each other for more money and prestige, or working against each other because of a historical rivalry. Politicians use this as an excuse to criticise the administration or the opposition. News networks compete for the best footage, rescue operations compete for more money and time. And when it's all done, one side blames the other as if that makes it all better, but it does not, because in the process lives that could have been saved were sacrificed for nothing more than the safety of blaming someone else. It's ridiculous, that we've advanced to a stage where the bureaucratic processes weigh more than human life itself. The blame game may be comforting, but it is deadly.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:45 am |
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I agree with you both. The ball was dropped on this one many times. Do I think it was PERSON X's fault? No. I think that all of these tiny, and bigger, mistakes led to this huge catastrophe.
I also don't think that this should be the American people's focus right now. IMO, the people who endured this should maintain top priority intsead of being overshadowed by all of the fingerpointing.
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Birdy
Socialist
Joined: 20 Sep 2004
Posts: 13502
Location: Here.
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| Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:27 pm |
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| LightningBoy wrote: | When was the last time a Category 5 hurricane hit Holland? The dykes were structually sound, but a Category 5 hurricane is an ENORMOUS force.
Not only do winds approach 200mph, they slam storm surge against these levies, which really would be nearly impossible to reckon with.
It's not feisable to have levies that can support that with the technology we have today. |
I know. Like, never, chances are it never will... I know. But still, half our country is well below seelevels.
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Seven of Nine
Sammie's Mammy
Joined: 16 Jun 2001
Posts: 7871
Location: North East England
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| Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:50 pm |
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Katrina is all my fault. I stamped my foot so hard when yelling at Samantha, that I caused a hurricane in the Atlantic. This then led to the deaths of thousands of people.
(Well, I'm just as much to blame as any other individual in this.)
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:59 pm |
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Really?
You have the responsibility for US federal disaster response? That's the JOB you're paid to do?
Didn't think so.
Thing is, when someone has a job, they should be expected to do it. When they don't, and people die because of that, then they should be held responsible for their mistakes.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:01 pm |
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We'd better remove God from his position, too, since it's His job to care for us all.
It wasn't one big identifiable mistake, it was a series of mistakes. Not to mention something that there was no precedent for, but hey, let's expect perfection.
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:04 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | | We'd better remove God from his position, too, since it's His job to care for us all. |
Well, since I'm not a Christian, I don't really have to worry about how well he's doing his job...
| Quote: | | It wasn't one big identifiable mistake, it was a series of mistakes. Not to mention something that there was no precedent for, but hey, let's expect perfection. |
Agreed that it was a series of mistakes.
And I certainly don't expect perfection.
I do expect reasonable competence.
Precedent? This sucker has been predicted for years--exactly as the scenario played out. We should have been better prepared.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:06 pm |
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For a category five and levees breaking? I think it's something we could prepare for until hell froze over, but until it happens, we can't know exactly what to do, or how we'll do it.
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:21 pm |
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^ Come on, girl, we're *Americans*. We're supposed to be able to pull off what other folks think is impossible.
Yes, there were plenty of things that could have been done at *all* levels--from the individual citizen right up to the President to prevent such a tragic loss of life.
The hurricane was an act of nature.
The mess afterwards was an act of man.
And more than 10,000 Americans died because of that.
That's *not* acceptable to me, and as an American I refuse to believe that's "the best we can do."
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:51 pm |
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| teya wrote: | ^ Come on, girl, we're *Americans*. We're supposed to be able to pull off what other folks think is impossible.
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Uh... wow. That's arrogant...
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:24 pm |
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You don't believe that the US is capable of setting goals and *achieving* them?
Okay, well, that attitude certainly explains the current culture of mediocrity that plagues us.
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:28 pm |
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Wow, that isn't what she said at all. Don't be rude.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:30 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Wow, that isn't what she said at all. Don't be rude. |
Thanks, Aaron. It isn't what I said. But, I did give her permission to put words in my mouth to give herself credibility, sooooo...
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:34 pm |
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Oh, I see. How justifiable,
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"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:51 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Wow, that isn't what she said at all. Don't be rude. |
Thanks, Aaron. It isn't what I said. But, I did give her permission to put words in my mouth to give herself credibility, sooooo... |
You call me arrogant because I think our country can do better than it has.
Then what *are* you saying?
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:56 pm |
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I believe you actually said the following:
| Teya wrote: | | Come on, girl, we're *Americans*. We're supposed to be able to pull off what other folks think is impossible. |
That would seem to imply that as Americans we're superior to others.
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"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:08 pm |
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Transcript: Bill O'Reilly's commentary from last night:
| Quote: | What Really Happened in the Wake of Hurricane Katrina?
What really happened in the wake of Hurricane Katrina (search)? That is the subject of this evening's "Talking Points Memo".
With so much misinformation and spin about Katrina, we decided to do a methodical investigation into exactly what happened after the hurricane ripped through New Orleans (search). And here's what we found out.
We begin with the Louisiana Hurricane Evacuation Plan (search), which is what the mayor and the governor were supposed to follow. One key provision in that plan states, "The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles may be used to provide transportation for individuals who require assistance in evacuating."
But those government vehicles were not used on a large scale to get people out of town. Instead, Governor Kathleen Blanco (search) and Mayor Ray Nagin (search) decided to allow New Orleans residents to stay if they wanted, even though a mandatory evacuation order had been issued by the mayor about 14 hours before the storm hit.
Nagin did authorize transportation to get folks to the Superdome (search), which was designated a refuge of last resort. However, most city buses stood idle and on low ground and were quickly flooded by Katrina.
Even though the mayor opened the Superdome to thousands, there was not nearly enough security inside, nor enough food and water. Mayor Nagin still has not explained why a mandatory evacuation is not mandatory. What say you, Mayor Nagin?
Now Governor Blanco also made major mistakes. After asking and getting the federal government to declare the hurricane zone a disaster area two days before the storm hit, the governor failed to send any National Guard (search) troops in to secure New Orleans and the surrounding parishes before the storm. Why?
She also failed to ask for more troops from the feds, knowing she only had about 6,000 to control the city of 1.3 million. Why not ask for more?
Like the mayor, Governor Blanco has no explanation. Surely she knew the potential for chaos. Why not send the Guard in immediately?
Then when the levees were breached, the Guard found itself unable to get into New Orleans. They're outside. It was not until Wednesday, August 31st, three days after the storm hit, that Blanco admitted she didn't have enough security in the city.
Once the levees were breached, the situation then became a national security issue. And the feds, already having the power to act, should have arrived in force. But the homeland security office and President Bush were 24 hours late in taking decisive action.
So summing up, the mayor allowed citizens to defy a mandatory evacuation and didn't use city buses to get them out of town. The governor didn't send the Guard in before the storm. And that caused the New Orleans police to be quickly overwhelmed. The evacuation plan clearly states that a refuge of last resort may not have food and water available, but I wonder how many people knew that.
Also, how did the mayor and governor think any kind of structure could be maintained without crowd control?
Again, we believe Blanco and Nagin should be forced to answer those questions. And that's “The Memo.”
Source |
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:21 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | I believe you actually said the following:
| Teya wrote: | | Come on, girl, we're *Americans*. We're supposed to be able to pull off what other folks think is impossible. |
That would seem to imply that as Americans we're superior to others. |
Now *you're* reading into my words.
All I was saying is that we *used* to set impossible goals and meet them.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:22 pm |
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May be what you meant to say, but it isn't what you said. I'm not the only one, nor is Aaron, to get that impression.
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:54 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | | May be what you meant to say, but it isn't what you said. I'm not the only one, nor is Aaron, to get that impression. |
Okay, I will remember that the next time we have a thread on "America, Policeman of the World."
My apologies to anyone who was offended by how I expressed that. My *intent* was to say--which I've been saying for days, and has been roundly dismissed as "fingerpointing"--that we, as a country *can* do better for our people. I truly believe that.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Thu Sep 08, 2005 3:26 pm |
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| teya wrote: | | Theresa wrote: | | May be what you meant to say, but it isn't what you said. I'm not the only one, nor is Aaron, to get that impression. |
Okay, I will remember that the next time we have a thread on "America, Policeman of the World."
My apologies to anyone who was offended by how I expressed that. My *intent* was to say--which I've been saying for days, and has been roundly dismissed as "fingerpointing"--that we, as a country *can* do better for our people. I truly believe that. |
Apples and oranges.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:22 pm |
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Okay, I just learned from Hannity's radio show that--and this was a report by FOX News' Major Garret--that the Red Cross had tractor trailers with TONS of food and medicine supplies READY before the hurricane struck New Orleans. However, when they contacted the state government, they were DENIED access to the city to bring those supplies to the Superdome.
Why? Because the state's "plans" were to use the building as a refuge of last resort, and had warned people that there would be no food and medicine, etc there. Because of this, they "could not" allow aid to come to the Superdome, because that would, get this, "encourage them to stay." Essentially they wanted to make their lives there MISERABLE so that they wouldn't have to deal with them any further, so that they would want to leave, and therefore DENIED the aid that the Red Cross provided! This is maddness! (Mind you, though, they didn't have everything, but they had a lot of food and water that would really have been useful.)
And what's also ridiculous is how governor Blanco has stated that only she can give the order for a mandatory evacuation of the city (and has yet to give it), preventing the mayor from at last forcing people to evacuate.
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