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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
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Location: United States of America
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 Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:58 pm |
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And that was my opinion, 
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
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| Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:10 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | | And that was my opinion, |
That I was arguing against it being protectable under freedom of speech and I implied that he didn't have freedom of speech? It's now an opinion for someone to say that another is opposed to it being allowed to be said by saying that something is wrong? Doesn't make sense...
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:12 pm |
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Perhaps for you, but I've started expecting less, so it's ok.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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| Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:35 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | | Perhaps for you, but I've started expecting less, so it's ok. |
I might as well just stop pointing out where you're mistaken, or say something that just doesn't make any sense.
Moving on...
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:41 pm |
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Or you could just say you don't understand, instead of looking for a hidden meaning, or some veiled slur against you. Like I said, leave your persecution complex off stv.
If "freedom of speech" could be used as a defense for Pat Robertson, it can also be used for the cartoonist. And I don't have to explain that to you.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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| Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:44 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | Or you could just say you don't understand, instead of looking for a hidden meaning, or some veiled slur against you. Like I said, leave your persecution complex off stv.
If "freedom of speech" could be used as a defense for Pat Robertson, it can also be used for the cartoonist. And I don't have to explain that to you. |
I never said that it wasn't free speech. I agree that it was his right to say that--just as it's mine to disagree with it. Then you bolded Freedom of Speech, like you were pointing that out to me. Fine, from now on I will ask you to explain something, although I still disagree with your statements in this topic--period.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:47 pm |
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This is the absolute LAST TIME I'm telling you this.
IF I AM ADDRESSING YOU SPECIFICALLY, I WILL EITHER QUOTE YOU, OR I WILL SAY, "REPUBLICAN_MAN".
Since I've said this twenty times, and again just yesterday, I'm assuming it's getting through now.
And I don't care if you agree with me or not. You don't need to...
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Some of us fall by the wayside
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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| Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:48 pm |
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Fine--I'm leaving in a minute, and this is my last post for a few hours, so I ask then: why did you bold "Freedom of Speech?" I would just like to know why it was bolded.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:51 pm |
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OMFW
Because I felt like it. Just like I felt like putting that in italics. Told you to stop trying to read into things and create things that just don't exist... God.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:49 pm |
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Interesting how you defended the cartoonist with "Freedom of Speech", but not Robertson. Strange....
| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | I'd rather have him taken out of power justifiably (as with Iraq), than through other, unjustified means |
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So instead you want another war?
| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Movies and video games aren't real. Making public statements supporting murder is. If people follow through with fake things, they may with real things, too. I'm not saying that people would kill Chavez over this, only that publically going around supporting violence can have violent consequences. If Dr. Phil said that we should murder Bush, would there be a problem with it? Yeah. |
Most things can have violent consequences. Way worse than what he did. That doesn't mean people's opinions should be shot down. You don't like it because of the violent conontations? Ok thats fine, but its still his right to say. I'd also like to mention that Chavez is not as "innocent" as he makes himself out to be.
| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | And yeah, it will make Chavez more of a public figure in the US. But that doesn't mean that everytime we want to bring someone to public knowledge, we should say that we should kill him/her. |
Sometimes that is what it takes. Not many people payed attention to Venezuala before this, nor Chavez. Same thing with Iraq before the war.
| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | And if inciting to riot is DOING something, than inciting violence as Robertson did is also DOING something. |
This is simply a matter of opinion. You see "inciting violence", I see "something that needed to be said."
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:16 pm |
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Nothing strange about it, really. It's the cartoonists job to make a caricature, joke, of what was said. And I've already posted what I think of Robertson.
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IntrepidIsMe
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| Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:22 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | I'd rather have him taken out of power justifiably (as with Iraq), than through other, unjustified means |
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So instead you want another war? |
No, I don't want any war. As I said "taken out of power justifiably."
| Founder wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Movies and video games aren't real. Making public statements supporting murder is. If people follow through with fake things, they may with real things, too. I'm not saying that people would kill Chavez over this, only that publically going around supporting violence can have violent consequences. If Dr. Phil said that we should murder Bush, would there be a problem with it? Yeah. |
Most things can have violent consequences. Way worse than what he did. That doesn't mean people's opinions should be shot down. You don't like it because of the violent conontations? Ok thats fine, but its still his right to say. I'd also like to mention that Chavez is not as "innocent" as he makes himself out to be. |
Nobody here is saying that Chavez is innocent of anything, we all agree that hes a tyrant who doesn't belong in power. And I agree, its his right to say it, but does that mean its correct for him to say it?
| Founder wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | And yeah, it will make Chavez more of a public figure in the US. But that doesn't mean that everytime we want to bring someone to public knowledge, we should say that we should kill him/her. |
Sometimes that is what it takes. Not many people payed attention to Venezuala before this, nor Chavez. Same thing with Iraq before the war. |
I don't think this was required to make Chavez more of a public figure here. Whats wrong with simply saying that hes a tyrant and a dictator, and stating his crimes? That would have the same effect, minus the obvious.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:31 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | I'd rather have him taken out of power justifiably (as with Iraq), than through other, unjustified means |
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So instead you want another war? |
No, I don't want any war. As I said "taken out of power justifiably."
But you also mentioned Iraq, thus the war comment.
| Founder wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Movies and video games aren't real. Making public statements supporting murder is. If people follow through with fake things, they may with real things, too. I'm not saying that people would kill Chavez over this, only that publically going around supporting violence can have violent consequences. If Dr. Phil said that we should murder Bush, would there be a problem with it? Yeah. |
Most things can have violent consequences. Way worse than what he did. That doesn't mean people's opinions should be shot down. You don't like it because of the violent conontations? Ok thats fine, but its still his right to say. I'd also like to mention that Chavez is not as "innocent" as he makes himself out to be. |
Nobody here is saying that Chavez is innocent of anything, we all agree that hes a tyrant who doesn't belong in power. And I agree, its his right to say it, but does that mean its correct for him to say it?
Maybe, maybe not. Its all a matter of opinion, as is most things. Maybe as a Christian leader, he should have chosen his words better. But I definitly don't think that it deserved the outrage or media coverage that it got. Its by far, ridiculous. I feel no sympathy towards the man he said it against.
| Founder wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | And yeah, it will make Chavez more of a public figure in the US. But that doesn't mean that everytime we want to bring someone to public knowledge, we should say that we should kill him/her. |
Sometimes that is what it takes. Not many people payed attention to Venezuala before this, nor Chavez. Same thing with Iraq before the war. |
I don't think this was required to make Chavez more of a public figure here. Whats wrong with simply saying that hes a tyrant and a dictator, and stating his crimes? That would have the same effect, minus the obvious. |
Like I said, the reason he did not state simply that, was because he was expanding on the comment that Chavez made about the US trying to assasinate him.
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IntrepidIsMe
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| Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:40 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | But you also mentioned Iraq, thus the war comment. |
I was responding to this: | Founder wrote: | | He was trying to say that instead of another Iraq, we should just assasinate him. |
when I said that.
| Founder wrote: | | Like I said, the reason he did not state simply that, was because he was expanding on the comment that Chavez made about the US trying to assasinate him. |
I don't think hes that passive. Hes made comments before that are pretty disturbing.
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"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:43 pm |
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I'm not sure what is more "justifiable". No, I'm not saying war and murder is the only answer, but there is very little else we could do to get rid of him.
| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | I don't think hes that passive. Hes made comments before that are pretty disturbing. |
I agree that he has said contreversial comments. I'm quite sure, that this will stay with him as well. Sadly. Its really not worth all the fuss.
I don't think he just said "Praise Jesus! By the way? We should assasinate Chavez." I think there was some kinda discussion on the show about that. He was just adding his two cents.
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IntrepidIsMe
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| Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:49 pm |
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There are always peaceful means.
His two cents, hmmmm. Like here: | Quote: | | In October 2003, he suggested that the State Department be blown up with a nuclear device. |
and here:
| Quote: | | He has also said that feminism encourages women to "kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." |
?
Perhaps if he had conducted himself with some restraint in the past, this wouldn't have been turned into the big deal it is today. The only person he has to blame is himself.
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"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Founder
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Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:53 pm |
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[quote="IntrepidIsMe"]There are always peaceful means.
His two cents, hmmmm. Like here: | Quote: | | In October 2003, he suggested that the State Department be blown up with a nuclear device. |
and here:
[quote]He has also said that feminism encourages women to "kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." | Quote: | ?
Perhaps if he had conducted himself with some restraint in the past, this wouldn't have been turned into the big deal it is today. The only person he has to blame is himself. |
Peace means nothing to a tyrant. I am interested in hearing what the "peaceful" ways are. (No, I'm not saying I don't believe you. i'm honestly interested.)
First of all, I never said any of those other comments were "part of an initial conversation." So bringng them up now means nothing. Like I said, I understand that he is contreversial. I don't agree with any PAST statements he made before, simply because they were ludicrous. We have to look at the bigger picture here. He said that a tyrant should be assasinated rather, than go through another war. This isn't as "terrible" as everyone is making it out to be.
Also, he has the media to blame as well. They blow everything out of proportion just for a quick story.
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IntrepidIsMe
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| Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:02 pm |
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I'm not going to pretend to have the answers for a peacful way to bring Chavez out of power. It would obviously be easier just to kill him. I mean... why didn't I think out such a technical plan?
I agree, peace doesn't mean anything to him. I mean peaceful ways to bring him out of power, or at least ways that may not involve foreign intervention, and if it does, by many nations. Not just the US.
I simply brought those up to show that he has a history of supporting violence. Why woud he consistantly say those kinds of things, if he doesn't mean them? You don't just go around crying wolf all the time for no reason, unless you mean it.
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"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Founder
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Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:12 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | I'm not going to pretend to have the answers for a peacful way to bring Chavez out of power. It would obviously be easier just to kill him. I mean... why didn't I think out such a technical plan?
I agree, peace doesn't mean anything to him. I mean peaceful ways to bring him out of power, or at least ways that may not involve foreign intervention, and if it does, by many nations. Not just the US.
I simply brought those up to show that he has a history of supporting violence. Why woud he consistantly say those kinds of things, if he doesn't mean them? You don't just go around crying wolf all the time for no reason, unless you mean it. |
No no no no no. I never said he doesn't mean them. I know he meant them. Most people say what they mean. He feels that if we do try and go against Chavez, we should assasinate him rather than launch another war. He definitly meant what he said.
I'm sure he apologized simply because of pressure and the media blowing it out of proportion. I don't know him, so I won't say he doesn't mean his apology. He honestly might have thought about it and came to the conclusion that it was wrong to say that. OR he simply couldn't deal with the negative exposure and crumbled.
He even tried to stumble out of an interview and say that he didn't say "assasinate" or mean it. Although, IMO, he did.
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Republican_Man
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| Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:34 pm |
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He has also said that we should block off the Syrian border and kill anyone who crosses through it, which would be terrorists shipping support in--I watched it on the show a few months ago. Do I agree with it? No. But the general idea is that we need to do something with the Syrian Border to stop the support the terrorists are getting in Iraq.
Also, please put into context the statement about the State Department. And I see nothing wrong with his feminism comment--although I disagree with it.
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IntrepidIsMe
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| Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:27 pm |
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I don't get all this "put it into context" bull. What he said is what he said. If he meant it in a different way, he should have said it in a different way.
Yeah, he just seems like a chauvinistic freak.
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"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Founder
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| Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:21 am |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | I don't get all this "put it into context" bull. What he said is what he said. If he meant it in a different way, he should have said it in a different way.
Yeah, he just seems like a chauvinistic freak. |
We aren't denying that he meant what he said. He did mean it. What we mean by "put it into context" is quoting him properly. He doesn't want to assasinate Chavez just cause. He is saying that it is preferable to another Iraq.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Sat Aug 27, 2005 11:24 am |
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Actually, since it's something he said on a nationally publicized TV show, it doesn't have to be put into context. If you are channel surfing, and a total nutcase, and those are the only words you hear, and take to heart...
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And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
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| Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:40 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | | Actually, since it's something he said on a nationally publicized TV show, it doesn't have to be put into context. If you are channel surfing, and a total nutcase, and those are the only words you hear, and take to heart... |
Well, sure, good point, but when you're debating it, you HAVE to put it into context. Otherwise, it's not honest debate.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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