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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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 Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:44 pm U.S. House passes flag-burning ban |
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| BBC News wrote: | US House passes flag-burning ban
The US House of Representatives has approved a constitutional amendment allowing lawmakers to ban flag burning.
The Republican-led House voted 286-130 on the divisive measure, which now goes before the Senate.
Similar moves in the past have failed to gather the three-thirds majority required for constitutional amendments in both houses of the US Congress.
The draft amendment aims to override a 1989 Supreme Court ruling protecting flag desecration as free speech.
The issue has been a rallying cause for conservatives ever since.
It gathered political momentum in the wake of the 11 September 2001 attacks on the US.
"Ask the men and women who stood on top of the World Trade Center," said Republican Randy Cunningham, a Californian congressman.
"Ask them and they will tell you - pass this amendment"
Senate hurdle
Wednesday's vote was the fifth time the Republican-dominated House has approved the amendment.
But so far it has failed to get the required 67 votes needed in the Senate.
However Democrats are divided on the issue, and recent changes in the Senate mean the measure could be approved.
"There are too many scenarios where we would lose," Terri Ann Schroeder of the American Civil Liberties Union - which opposes the amendment - told the New York Times.
The move does not directly prohibit desecration of the flag - but allows individual state legislatures and the US Congress to enact such a ban.
If the Senate in turn approves the amendment by a two-thirds majority, it still has to be ratified by 38 states.
The constitution has been amended 27 times, including the first 10 amendments known as the Bill of Rights.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/americas/4122814.stm
Published: 2005/06/23 11:02:27 GMT
� BBC MMV |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4122814.stm
Personally I think people should be allowed to burn anything they want, provided it isn't someone else's property and the item in question is not going to cause harm when burning (eg; one should not set fire to a heat-seeking proximity triggered intercontinent ballistic missile  ).
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:57 pm |
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^No. The banning of the burning of the flag is just what we should have.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:58 pm |
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While I think the people who actually do it are *beep*, not realizing that they are not only insulting one administration, but the entire nations history, (Americans, obviously), they pass a bill like this, and the land seizure so close? Which one is really freedom?
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Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:15 pm |
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I'm glad they passed this law. What reason do you have to desecrate a flag? Its just disrespectful. While the flag is just cotton and a pole to some people, its a symbol of freedom to others.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:27 pm |
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We just retired two flags. Was more... emotional? than I thought it'd be. I'm not unhappy they outlawed this, but I just don't understand their concept of "freedom".
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:27 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | I'm glad they passed this law. What reason do you have to desecrate a flag? Its just disrespectful. While the flag is just cotton and a pole to some people, its a symbol of freedom to others. |
Agreed. I think it's TERRORISM!
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:28 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: |
Agreed. I think it's TERRORISM! |
Hardly.
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:29 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | Agreed. I think it's TERRORISM! |
Hardly. |
Well, in a way. Not quite like Osama, but still, terrorism.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:31 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | | We just retired two flags. Was more... emotional? than I thought it'd be. I'm not unhappy they outlawed this, but I just don't understand their concept of "freedom". |
You don't have to understand it. Its just important to some people. Thats like being able to desecrate the Bible or the Bhagavad(sp?) Gita. Its important to people. To violate that is just wrong. There is no GOOD reason to burn the flag or any flag for that matter. I would get angry if someone burned the British flag, and I'm not British. Its just mean to do that. You only do that to be an A**. I mean...is there a good reason to do it?
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:35 pm |
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That's almost the word I used,  Just had a "hole" on the end. Personally, it pisses me off, and I'd probably be childish and punch the person.
I mean, like I said, we just properly burned two flags*, and even Dad just stood there and stared at them, no one spoke. People forget that a flag is so much more than a piece of cloth. They don't call it a country's "standard" for nothing.
*They were both ripped, I looked up how to retire them on several sites.
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:40 pm |
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It's not the act of burning a flag that I'm really worried about. I agree that the flag can be a powerful symbol.
As much as one may not want people to burn flags, they should be allowed to burn flags if they want to. Being a country that prides itself in freedom, the United States should not be allowed to dictate how its citizens express themselves--that sort of goes against the First Amendment. I'm not arguing that one should be able to burn a flag, just that one should have the freedom to burn a flag should they choose to do so.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:47 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | That's almost the word I used, Just had a "hole" on the end. Personally, it pisses me off, and I'd probably be childish and punch the person.
I mean, like I said, we just properly burned two flags*, and even Dad just stood there and stared at them, no one spoke. People forget that a flag is so much more than a piece of cloth. They don't call it a country's "standard" for nothing.
*They were both ripped, I looked up how to retire them on several sites. |
Well, if it's done properly, I'm fine with it.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:57 pm |
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If you make flagburning illegal, more people will do it.
It's an act of defiance. It is meaningless if there is nothing to say you can't do it. I am against this law. A Flag is a symbol, it IS important, and this law will cause MORE flags to be burned.
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:17 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | There is no GOOD reason to burn the flag or any flag for that matter. |
Yes there is, Like T was saying, In order to retire a flag that has served it's time, is old, torn, etc. You burn it and bury or scatter the ashes as a tribute to the what the flag stands for.
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"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." President Thomas Jefferson
"A man's respect for law and order exists in precise relationship to the size of his paycheck." Adam Clayton Powell Jr.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:19 pm |
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| Link, the Hero of Time wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | There is no GOOD reason to burn the flag or any flag for that matter. |
Yes there is, Like T was saying, In order to retire a flag that has served it's time, is old, torn, etc. You burn it and bury or scatter the ashes as a tribute to the what the flag stands for. |
*Sigh* Good Lord. Do you actually think EVERYONE that burns the flag does it for that reason?
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:22 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | *Sigh* Good Lord. Do you actually think EVERYONE that burns the flag does it for that reason? |
Oh, not at all. But that reason is a good reason. 
| Founder wrote: | | There is no GOOD reason to burn the flag or any flag for that matter. |
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:25 pm |
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Our Hero of Time, Link, is like, THE Boy Scout. Liiiiiiiiink, can you tell the proper procedures? (For retiring the flag).
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:29 pm |
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I'm not complaining about what T did. I'm just saying you're being naive by believing that everyone who burns the flag does it for that reason.
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:55 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | | Our Hero of Time, Link, is like, THE Boy Scout. Liiiiiiiiink, can you tell the proper procedures? (For retiring the flag). |
Yeah, they're simple, The only hard part is that none of the ashes from the flag are allowed to touch the ground.
There are multiple ways of doing it, one of the simple ways I was taught was that, everyone stands, The two flagbearers, with the flag about to be retired, walk up to the fire, As Taps is played and a moment of silence observed the flag is unfolded. There are some words said about the history of the flag, how it has served it's time, etc. The Taps is played again as the two people hold the flag by the corners and hold it over the fire. once the center is burned out, the two carefully place the rest of the flag in the middle of the fire. As the flag burns, the MC calls out the names of the 13 colonies as a symbolic gesture of how we began. Then another moment of silence and recolection is given.
Easy, no?
There are about 14 other ways you could do it, The Girl Scouts have their own version, as does each branch of the military. This is just one of the Boy Scout ways.
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webtaz99
Commodore
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 1229
Location: The Other Side
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| Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:00 pm |
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It is height of hypocrisy to gaurantee free speech, and allow artists to display human excrement as "art" funded by federal dollars, and then say people cannot burn or "desecrate" the flag.
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"History is made at night! Character is who you are in the dark." (Lord John Whorfin)
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:28 am |
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Why on earth would Americans want to burn their own flag unless they plan to betray their own country. I just don't understand. I, myself would not burn no flag but that's just me.
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nadia
cookie
Joined: 08 Apr 2005
Posts: 8560
Location: Australia
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| Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:33 am |
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People burn there own flags?? No offence but thats silly!
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webtaz99
Commodore
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 1229
Location: The Other Side
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| Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:23 am |
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As Patrick Henry put it:
I may disagree with what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it.
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"History is made at night! Character is who you are in the dark." (Lord John Whorfin)
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:11 am |
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I thought that was Voltaire,  Guess not.
Edit:
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Voltaire
How similar.
Last edited by IntrepidIsMe on Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:53 pm |
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If anyone takes it to the supreme court it'll be shot down. It's happened before, and the representatives know that. Political stunt. They need a constitutional ammendment if they want it to stick.
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Not the doctor... yet
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