Bush opposes UK Africa debt plan

madlilnerd · **Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:06 am**

Why do people only seem to care about poverty in Africa? Most of it is caused by corrupt dictatorships. No one seems to care about the mass poverty in places such as Thailand and South America: (www.toyboxcharity.org.uk)

It's great that we are finally getting round to breaking the chains of international debt, but I don't think that we should send more aid. If we get rid of the debt and make trade fairer then there is no need to send more aid. The people don't need charity, they need a way to get their lives working properly (give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he eats forever).

Jeremy · **Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:40 am**

...Unless there is a disease or something, but I know what you mean.

A lot of the problems in Africa resulted in the colonial powers leaving but not teaching anyone anything about government. So a number of inexperienced people took power and messed it up. Then the people were desperate so turned to extremest parties and the dictorships grew up. A number of the countries have proper governments now but can't do anything as they are limited by the debts they inherited.

Captain.Dan V2 · **Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:02 am**

I agree that poverty is very bad and we need to do something about it.
But
(This is going to sound really heartless)
If they borrowed the money it is their job to pay it back, you wouldn't take a loan from the bank and then say oh sorry I can't pay your money back and expect the bank to say well thats fine infact forget the debt we'll let you off with the repayments.
Life doesn't work like this in the future maybe it will , but in the present dream on.
I know that what I've just said sounded very cruel and heartless but no matter how much help we give the Africans as long as they continue to have children its going to get worse. I understand alot of them are christain and the pope won't allow contraseption etc but they have to forget the rules. If they stop having kids they solve the problem.

I know how bad the above statement sounds and I apologise if it offends or angers anyone but these are my opinions (please don't hold them against me)

Jeremy · **Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:19 am**

The reason they have lots of kids is so they can be supported when they're old. Most of them don't survive anyway. So it's not the solution. They have paid back the debt, many times but the interest keeps on piling on. Also they get forced to do certain things with any money they are given. Often other countries have to do the same. So you get lots of countries growing coffee beans. Then because of the large amount of countries doing the same the cost of coffee beans drops and they make a lose. So they can't win either way.

Captain.Dan V2 · **Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:28 am**

I know that and I agree the interest should be reduced.
I also know why they have the children but I would say there being selfish bringing a child into a world when they know they'll have a poor quality of life stop having kids don't do deals with multi-national countries and then their on the right tracks but they don't they allow themselves to be conned and cheated.
As the saying goes "Its a dog eat dog world" and "Survival of the fittest"
its the way life works.
No matter how much we dislike it.

Jeremy · **Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:32 am**

So how do they get the money they need to be able to rebuild when it's all going into debt repayment? In many countries the debt repayment is higher than that of health and education together.

Captain.Dan V2 · **Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:39 am**

You don't.
The Interest should be stopped a perminant amount set and they pay it off I do disagree with the amount of interest adds on.
But
They borrowed the money and knew it the risks and they accepted so they should accept the consiquences of their actions.

LightningBoy · **Fri Jun 03, 2005 12:19 pm**

As a debt collector, I say this; If you agree to borrow it, you're also agreeing to pay it back.

If anyone wants progress in Africa, it will take regime changes. How much money did the international community throw at Iraq before the war? All that did was buy them French and Russian weaponry, the people didn't benefit at all. The only way we made a difference there was with the overthrowing of Hussein.

Republican_Man · **Fri Jun 03, 2005 3:29 pm**

webtaz99 · **Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:05 pm**

Most African nations could probably clear 80% of their debt by selling their weapons on the open market. Buying guns is where most of their debt came from.

Captain.Dan V2 · **Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:32 am**

hm maybe we'll next see a war against African dictators ????
ok no but it would help the Africans

Seven of Nine · **Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:42 am**

Many of these debts were aquired by dictators. Now some of the countries have half decent governments, but have to pay off the debt of their predecessors. They'll never get out of poverty with these debts on their backs. I agree with wiping the slate clean, so long as the money they then have goes into improving the country.

I don't see why George Bush is so against this. There's a awful lot of people who believe that African Debt should be wiped. Tony Blair and Gordon Brown are actually listening for once. I've emailed both of them about this, and if the plans go through then it's a step towards improving the world.

http://www.makepovertyhistory.org

madlilnerd · **Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:41 pm**

/\ right on, Danni

I was actually in a march for breaking the chains of debt... I think it was called Jubilee 2000... years back. I've still got my t-shirt somewhere, but it doesn't fit me any more.

These countries have paid back the debt. All their money goes to paying off debt, so they don't have healthcare. They don't have healthcare, so they get ill and have less workers to work to pay off the debt. So they have to work harder to pay off the debt and this goes on and on and on until they are working to pay off interest on a loan they took out 30, 40 years ago. Is that fair?

LightningBoy · **Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:59 am**

Captain.Dan V2 · **Sun Jun 05, 2005 4:32 am**

Excellent point LightningBoy

madlilnerd · **Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:19 am**

Captain.Dan V2 · **Sun Jun 05, 2005 7:15 am**

Its not a case of if we need it but a case of its ours ,
We could use the repayments and put them towards the NHS (god knows it needs more money), or towards homeless shelters . education , Benifets , soup kitchens, increasing wages for Firemen there is alot of things that need improving in Britain so why should Tony Blair cancel the debt ????
Tony Blair doesn't live in the real world,
He doesn't live with Gang voilnce , homeless people and all the rest he lives with constant police protection, more money than he has brains (Thats not hard to believe though).
I want Tony Blair to stay because of some of his actions not all of them, This reduction of African Debt is a way to buy Britain good puplicity !.
He doesn't give a damm about the way the Africans are suffering and if truth be told most of the Goverment doesn't all that they care about is their public image well erm Hello most of the people I've spoken to about the African debt issue totally disagree with him.
We let enough different people from different Ethnic backgrounds into the country so they can lead a better life is that not enough good for the time being ? especially since alot of ethnic backgrounds cause trouble anyway (my opinion but so do The English as well) -
Source :

madlilnerd · **Sun Jun 05, 2005 7:21 am**

Are you a BNP supporter? You must learn to be tolerant of other cultures in your area. My area has lots of Indians in it which means lots of fireworks for divali and ede but I don't complain. I learn to live with it. A whole lot of white youths beat up people and stab them and have ASBOs. I was bullied by Indian boys in my second year of secondary school. I learnt to live with it. You should too.

If we cancel the debts of countries they will be more open to trade with us and may consider us allies which is very useful.

I will not deny that Britain still has problems. My solution? Lower benifits.

Captain.Dan V2 · **Sun Jun 05, 2005 7:30 am**

Am I a BNP supporter ? no way what they want is to kick out every foriegn person which will not only cost a load but its would be way to hard to draw the line (eg would ethnic children who were born in England stay if so could their families stay ???? Its just an excuse like Hitler blaming the Jews for his own misfortune)
Do I agree with them ? no
I accept different cultures and their traditions ? yes
I know alot of white people have ASBOS and all the rest of it but I hate how racist the police and Goverment are in general, So I apologise for my last post,
I do like indians my grandmothers boss is an indian and I've know him most if not all of my life , I know his two children his wife all of them and their really nice.
Maybe I don't know what I mean maybe I do and I just can't explain it, but either way I am opposed to the African Debt relief.

Jeremy · **Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:07 pm**

So it's not the ethnic people you disagree with, but rather the law system in place that gives them more rights.

Captain.Dan V2 · **Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:29 pm**

A bit of both Jeremy.

Jeremy · **Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:34 pm**

Our country (and most other rich EMDC's) would have their economies severly damaged though unless the tariffs removed were only from one or two goods though.