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Founder
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 Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:44 pm China Acts to Prevent Tiananmen Memorials |
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| Quote: | BEIJING - China tightened security around Tiananmen Square on Saturday to prevent memorials on the anniversary of the bloody 1989 crackdown on pro-democracy protesters. But in Hong Kong, tens of thousands of protesters staged a candlelight rally.
In Sydney, Australia, a Chinese diplomat who is seeking asylum emerged from hiding to address a memorial rally.
Tiananmen Square, the symbolic political heart of China, was open to the public. But extra carloads of police watched tourists on the vast plaza, where weeks of student-led demonstrations that drew tens of thousands ended in a military attack 16 years ago Saturday. Troops killed hundreds and perhaps thousands of protesters that day.
There was no public mention of the anniversary in China nor any sign of attempts to commemorate it.
The United States used the anniversary to press Beijing for a full account of the dead, missing and detained from what it called the "brutal and tragic" events of 1989 and demanded that China generally show greater respect for internationally recognized human rights.
State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said the United States remembered the many Chinese citizens killed, detained, or missing in connection with the protests. In addition to those who died, thousands of Chinese were arrested and sentenced without trial, and as many as 250 still languish in prison for Tiananmen-related activities, he said.
"We call on the Chinese government to fully account for the thousands killed, detained, or missing, and to release those unjustly imprisoned," McCormack said.
"It is now time for the Chinese government to move forward with a reexamination of Tiananmen, and give its citizens the ability to flourish by allowing them to think, speak, assemble and worship freely. We continue to urge China to bring its human rights practices into conformity with international standards and law."
The day was especially sensitive because it followed the death in January of Zhao Ziyang, the former Communist Party leader who was purged in 1989 for sympathizing with the protesters.
Communist leaders have eased many of the social controls that fueled the unrest but still crush any activity that they fear might challenge their monopoly on power. After an official ruling that the nonviolent protests were a subversive riot, activists and relatives of the dead who appeal that ruling are detained and harassed.
"Family members of victims, like the Tiananmen mothers, and other citizens who urge their government to undertake a reassessment of what happened June 4, 1989, should be free from harassment and detention," McCormack said.
In Hong Kong, a crowd estimated by organizers at 30,000-40,000 raised candles in the air in Victoria Park and sang solemn songs in the only large-scale memorial on Chinese soil. They carried signs that read: "Don't forget June 4" and "Democracy fighters live forever."
The former British territory retains many of its Western-style civil liberties � a status that many there say obligates them to speak out while those on the mainland cannot.
"Our slogan is 'Recognize history,' and we're asking Beijing to do just that," said a vigil organizer, Lee Cheuk-yan.
A younger generation of Chinese who came of age since the protests know little about 1989 because of an official ban on public discussion.
But many in Hong Kong are still emotional about the crackdown, which came as the territory was preparing for its 1997 return to Chinese rule.
"Hong Kong people will not forget this history when a government uses guns and tanks to crush students. It's very atrocious," said Shum Ming, a 58-year-old construction worker.
In their rare public comments about 1989, Chinese leaders defend the crackdown by pointing to the nation's emergence as an economic powerhouse since then, saying it would have been impossible without the enforced stability of one-party rule. A booming private economy has freed millions of Chinese from the structure of state jobs that controlled where they lived and worked � and even whom they could marry.
That defense was echoed Saturday by Donald Tsang, the leading candidate in the campaign to become Hong Kong's next leader.
"I had shared Hong Kong people's passion and impetus when the June 4 incident happened. But after 16 years, I've seen our country's impressive economic and social development," Tsang said. "My feelings have become calmer."
In Sydney, Chen Yonglin, a 37-year-old Chinese diplomat who abandoned his post, said at a memorial rally that he was seeking asylum in Australia because of the lack of freedoms in China.
"In 16 years, the Chinese government has done nothing for political reform," he said. "People have no political freedom, no human rights."
Chen was the consul for political affairs at the Chinese consulate in Sydney. |
Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050604/ap_on_re_as/china_tiananmen_anniversary_4;_ylt=AjmOi1EAB5_Iu2PyAhO_JWVPzWQA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl
Image of a man weeping:
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050604/capt.hk10806041433.hong_kong_tiananman_anniversary_hk108.jpg?x=380&y=264&sig=nxYljoT5nZ_xp7EyU381bQ--
The perks of living in a communist society.....
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Zeke Zabertini
Captain
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 4832
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| Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:54 pm |
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Communism has nothing to do with it. It's totalitarianism that's causing the problem. Democracy must come to these nations.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
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| Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:11 pm |
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| Quote: | | A totalitarian r�gime or state attempts to control nearly every aspect of personal, economic, and political life. |
Hhhhmmmm doesn't seem like much of a difference between the two. The only thing thats different is Communism is sublte about controlling its citizens and killing individuality.
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Zeke Zabertini
Captain
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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| Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:28 pm |
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Communism is an economic system, not a style of government. While I may object to China's policies, it isn't because they're communist; it's because they're a dictatorship, with no democratic representation.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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| Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:18 pm |
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| Zeke Zabertini wrote: | | Communism is an economic system, not a style of government. While I may object to China's policies, it isn't because they're communist; it's because they're a dictatorship, with no democratic representation. |
Actually, you are wrong. Communism IS a government system. It's socialism with a dictatorial government.
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Zeke Zabertini
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| Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:35 am |
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Communism is an economic system. If you want to argue that it's a full-picture term, you must adhere to Marx's theory: a communist society is one in which government has been phased out completely by the people, who mutually decide upon and share everything.
Communism defined as a dictatorial government is a moden creation, and one I do not accept. Just because some people who didn't like the idea said that the definition of communism includes a dictatorship government and put it in a dictionary during the Soviet era doesn't make it true.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
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Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:40 am |
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But thats the way Communism is. All Communist nations are led by a dictator who has a tight grip on his economically deprived nation.
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Zeke Zabertini
Captain
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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| Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:53 am |
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By Marx's definition, which is arguably the only real one of communism, there has never been a communist nation on the face of this planet. I don't defend communism as an ideal system or even a workable one in human society, but I take personal offense at its name being sullied at the hands of despots and that same disgrace to the noble original concept of communism being accepted as the fact of communism when, in fact, it is not. Communism has never existed on Earth as more than a concept and, perhaps, in a few small, isolated colonies. Just because China calls itself communist does not make it communist, any more than the Congo's title, "People's Democratic Republic," in any way reflects the reality of its opressive, totalitarianist regime.
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Sun Jun 05, 2005 11:53 am |
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| Republican_Man wrote: |
Actually, you are wrong. Communism IS a government system. It's socialism with a dictatorial government. |
Quite wrong. What you think is Communism is actully Authoritarianism with pieces of Socialism attached.
The True definition of communism is that it is an Economic system in which private sector businesses and government are abolishisd.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
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| Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:12 pm |
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| Link, the Hero of Time wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: |
Actually, you are wrong. Communism IS a government system. It's socialism with a dictatorial government. |
Quite wrong. What you think is Communism is actully Authoritarianism with pieces of Socialism attached.
The True definition of communism is that it is an Economic system in which private sector businesses and government are abolishisd. |
All government oriented  Seems like a government system to me
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Zeke Zabertini
Captain
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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| Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:05 pm |
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In true communism there is no government. How is that a system of government?
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
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Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:50 pm |
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Mmm, more semantics.
The term "Communism" has become extremely muddied and unclear over the years of its development. By saying just "communism" without specifically discussing which time, one is leaving one's term open to interpretation.
In its strictest form, "communism" would probably be as defined by Marx, and that would be a social movement that is completely egalitarian, there is no "working class" or proleteriat. This form of communism has branched off into several other movements, most notably Anarcho-communism, which differs from Marxism in that it does not support a temporary socialist government to facilitate the transition to true communism. In economic terms, this abolishment of government means that all businesses are owned by the community at large, rather than any one source of authority. All business is owned by the State, but the State is the people and the people are the State.
Politically, the term "communism" has come to be synonymous with a left-wing authoritarian regime, probably because most such regimes started as socialist worker revolutions but were corrupted by power struggles amongst various faction leaders. From a social point of view, this is not communism because clearly the working class is no longer in control, rather control has defaulted to an oligarchy. Marxist and Anarcho-communists typically reject the ideology of such communist movements.
Further attempts at quantifying "communism" meet difficulties when one addresses the issue of democratic representation. In a true communist state, one cannot have democratic elections--because there are no parties, there is no government, there are only the people. This philosophy is akin to the speculation that formless societies are the ones most adaptable to change, whereas rigid class-structured societies are more vulnerable to destruction in the face of rapid change. The concept that communism promotes the good of the community over the individual is a radical reversal from Western materialism, which is one of the principal reasons that most of the world is opposed to it. Such opposition is the result of preconceived notions, in the similar way that people would be opposed to individualism if the majority of the world had developed into communist states.
Communism alone can refer to the political, social, and economic ideologies. Arguments and debates are better served by specifying what form of communism one is discussing, promoting, or refuting, because otherwise the palette is so broad as to make any argument naturally vague and inaccurate.
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Zeke Zabertini
Captain
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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| Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:54 pm |
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Hitchhiker, I love you.
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madlilnerd
Duchess of Dancemat
Joined: 03 Aug 2004
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Location: Slough, England
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| Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:09 pm |
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We don't live under tru democracy anyway. We live under representation democracy, wear we vote to elect someone to make decisions for the people. In true democracy, the people make all the decisions and vote on everything.
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Founder
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| Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:49 pm |
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 No offense, but this argument of what is Communism is pointless. You can keep saying that those goverments are not Communism. Nothing will change the fact that they ARE Communist states. You're just saying that because you're ashamed of seeing Communism at work. You may say "Thats not what I think a communist nation is!!!!" Too bad. China is a Communist country. Communism at its best and its horrible. I know you're embarrased but its the truth.
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Sun Jun 05, 2005 4:18 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | Nothing will change the fact that they ARE Communist states. |
That is true, to a degree. However, as I pointed out, there are a large number of communist ideologies. A state could be Anarcho-communist, Marxist, Leninst--to lump them all together is inaccurate at best.
| Founder wrote: | | You're just saying that because you're ashamed of seeing Communism at work. You may say "Thats not what I think a communist nation is!!!!" |
Again, it is communism to a degree, but an imperfect form of communism.
| Founder wrote: | | Communism at its best and its horrible. I know you're embarrased but its the truth. |
No, it is not an example of communism at its "best." Communism in its ideal and "best" form has never been properly demonstrated by any nation--largely, I admit, because communism in practice is a flawed ideology, just like every ideology.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
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| Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:03 pm |
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But nonetheless, it IS communism, that fact can't be changed--you can say that it's a "degree of communism," but that doesn't change the fact that it IS, and therefore it is fine for someone like Founder, myself, and former US President Ronald Reagan to be so adamently anti-communist.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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| Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:14 pm |
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There are schemes in place in UK and to a lesser extent America to support poor people in society. So we are slightly communism,
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
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| Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:15 pm |
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| Jeremy wrote: | | There are schemes in place in UK and to a lesser extent America to support poor people in society. So we are slightly communism, |
Nope, it's just aspects of socialism that are incorporated in the government
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Zeke Zabertini
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Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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| Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:17 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | No offense, but this argument of what is Communism is pointless. You can keep saying that those goverments are not Communism. Nothing will change the fact that they ARE Communist states. You're just saying that because you're ashamed of seeing Communism at work. You may say "Thats not what I think a communist nation is!!!!" Too bad. China is a Communist country. Communism at its best and its horrible. I know you're embarrased but its the truth. |
No offense? You're laughing at my deepest-held beliefs. You say what you want, you conceited little prick. I'm proud of my beliefs, and whether you like them or not, I demand some semblance of respect.
You accuse me of using the definition of communism that best suits me, but at least the definition I'm using is the original and arguably most correct one. I know that you have a background that makes you very heavily biased in the matter, but I do not think that adequate to excuse your rubbing my beliefs in the dirt. Check your ego; you're no better than me and neither are your beliefs.
NOTE: I know this post is probably over the line, but I will not tolerate my beliefs being so openly spit upon. Whatever the consequences may be for me taking the bait and responding this way, I will accept them.
Last edited by Zeke Zabertini on Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
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| Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:18 pm |
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There is much dark history that surrounds communism, particularly in Founder's background. Therefore, he truly has EVERY RIGHT to attack communism in the manner he sees best 
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
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| Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:19 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | But nonetheless, it IS communism, that fact can't be changed--you can say that it's a "degree of communism," but that doesn't change the fact that it IS, and therefore it is fine for someone like Founder, myself, and former US President Ronald Reagan to be so adamently anti-communist. |
You are entirely correct. I am just pointing out, however, that you are against one form of communism, and that being against one form of communism does not necessarily mean all other forms are bad, or that they will have exactly the same consequences as this form. I myself am against the form of communism practiced in places such as China.
| Republican_Man wrote: | | There is much dark history that surrounds communism, particularly in Founder's background. Therefore, he truly has EVERY RIGHT to attack communism in the manner he sees best |
There is a dark history surrounding Christianity too. . . .
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Republican_Man
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| Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:22 pm |
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| Hitchhiker wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | There is much dark history that surrounds communism, particularly in Founder's background. Therefore, he truly has EVERY RIGHT to attack communism in the manner he sees best |
There is a dark history surrounding Christianity too. . . . |
::slight chuckle:: That was centuries ago, however this is as recent as NOW. You have the USSR, for instance, which collapsed in 1990. You've got Cuba, China, and many other nations NOW, that have a very recent history, so there are big differences there
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Zeke Zabertini
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Joined: 13 Sep 2002
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| Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:24 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | There is much dark history that surrounds communism, particularly in Founder's background. Therefore, he truly has EVERY RIGHT to attack communism in the manner he sees best |
It's no excuse to present my beliefs as worthless. I try to be a reasonable person, but I cannot let this pass any more than you could if I made a speech to you about God being a great sham used to delude the masses and as an excuse to kill whole groups of people. Would you like it if I told you to your face that Christianity was an outright lie? If you wouldn't respond, I will freely admit that you are a more level-headed man than I.
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Republican_Man
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| Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:27 pm |
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| Zeke Zabertini wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | There is much dark history that surrounds communism, particularly in Founder's background. Therefore, he truly has EVERY RIGHT to attack communism in the manner he sees best |
It's no excuse to present my beliefs as worthless. I try to be a reasonable person, but I cannot let this pass any more than you could if I made a speech to you about God being a great sham used to delude the masses and as an excuse to kill whole groups of people. Would you like it if I told you to your face that Christianity was an outright lie? If you wouldn't respond, I will freely admit that you are a more level-headed man than I. |
There is a DIFFERENCE between the strong belief in a government system that has yet to truly work well and religion It's rather disturbing that you think it equal.
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