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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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 Tue May 31, 2005 5:16 pm |
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I just asked the opinion of a Religious person, a catholic and i only really know Founder is one. Just wanted too know if a catholic agrees with what the crusaders did or not, and what that means for their faith in the Catholic church.
because if you believe you belong too the catholic faith then you must go too church too pray and believe the pope is the reincarnation of Jesus. The church made war, killed hundreds of thousands Jews and Muslims, tortures and commits about every single crime god has forbidden on the other hand, if you believe you are part of that, how do you justify what they did?
If you don't belong too the church or don't believe in it then don't respond.
I just can't believe people are still Catholics while they know how much pain, death and suffering it has caused, even if you don't go too church,
how on earth can you believe there is a god? The Catholics who killed and tortured for God believed it as much as you do, how would you tihnk he would allow that and bless them and all. You think these guys go too heaven, will you if you don't kill? I'm just so confused with the whole religious thing.
I know its about what you believe but even so you call yourself a Catholic, which means ou are part of a Group off people who comitted horrible crimes in the name of your god, and they beleived in it much stronger than you did. How? Why?
-------signature-------
Never explain comedy or satire or the ironic comment. Those who get it, get it. Those who don't, never will. -Michael Moore
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Tue May 31, 2005 5:41 pm |
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| lionhead wrote: | I just asked the opinion of a Religious person, a catholic and i only really know Founder is one. Just wanted too know if a catholic agrees with what the crusaders did or not, and what that means for their faith in the Catholic church.
because if you believe you belong too the catholic faith then you must go too church too pray and believe the pope is the reincarnation of Jesus. The church made war, killed hundreds of thousands Jews and Muslims, tortures and commits about every single crime god has forbidden on the other hand, if you believe you are part of that, how do you justify what they did?
If you don't belong too the church or don't believe in it then don't respond.
I just can't believe people are still Catholics while they know how much pain, death and suffering it has caused, even if you don't go too church,
how on earth can you believe there is a god? The Catholics who killed and tortured for God believed it as much as you do, how would you tihnk he would allow that and bless them and all. You think these guys go too heaven, will you if you don't kill? I'm just so confused with the whole religious thing.
I know its about what you believe but even so you call yourself a Catholic, which means ou are part of a Group off people who comitted horrible crimes in the name of your god, and they beleived in it much stronger than you did. How? Why? |
First of all, no Catholic agrees with the Crusades. None. Second, stop being so ignorant. Not one Catholic on this planet believes the Pope is a reincarnation of Jesus. The Church made war A LONG TIME AGO. How are we supposed to change anything? The Catholic Church has already apologized for those horrible acts. There is nothing that can be done. Do YOU control the acts of YOUR ancestors? Then I guess thanks to YOU, SLAVERY was created. Isn't it YOUR prestigious culture that made millions of African Americans suffer? Just because you're Catholic doesn't mean you're part of the Crusades. Why are you so ignorant? Those were not the acts of God, but the acts of men drunk with power. God's teachings tell us not to kill our fellow men. They teach us tolerance and these men violated it. That doesn't me we do that now. Because there is pain and suffereing on Earth because of the Church in the PAST, that means there is no God? Can you try and make sense when you post? God did not bless all those who murdered people.
I'm part of a group that commited atrocities a LONG time ago. Why don't you talk about all the Catholics that did GOOD in the world huh? That helped the poor. That built houses for them. That tended to the ill and weak. That gave aid to those affected by some disaster. That put themselves in harm's way in other nations to help the people. That sheltered people of faith when Religious cleansings were being led by people like you. You never mention them. Why? Obviously because you like ATTACKING my Religion.
Your people commited atrocities too. When are you going to move away and get another citizenship to another country? You're part of an evil organization. 
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Tue May 31, 2005 5:44 pm |
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According to lionhead, apparently all of humanity should be eliminated, because at one point in history, everyone did something bad. Good argument,
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:37 am |
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man, i don't ignore the fact the Church did good things too, i just can't believe you don't see the difference between the Crusaders then and yourselfs now, there is no difference. And no, i don't mean no difference in point of view on the world or genocide is gods will but Faith. Faith, you all think there is a god and because you belief there is you are happy, you think that God will protect yuo and you family and as long as you are good yuo will go too heaven. But the Crusaders and all those who commited those crimes thought the same thing man. So how can you be so Naive to think that YOU really do good, how can YOU think your actions are the right ones, how can YOU think god will protect you?
I'm not attacking you Founder, i'm attacking the other people who are part of your Religion. I'm talking about Mobsters who kill people and go too church, ask forgiveness and truly believe that they are doing it the right way. Aren't you disgusted by your own Religion because that is tolerated?
Do you know how wrong it is too Tolerate that? Appereantly a whole lot of people tolerate it becasue nobody is doing anything about it. How can a Priest allow a Unpunished criminal carrying a gun walk into his so called "House of God" and grant him forgiveness too Jesus or whom ever, have they no shame?
and you all think those Crimes against humantiy are in the past, for the Church well forget it but lets talk about the muslims, they are now what the catholics where in the Past. and they are doing it for the same god i might add. They have the same Beliefs as Catholics do, just like the Jews and they are still Waging war over that Jerusalem(don't flame me if i'm wrog about that, but something close too that is what they are fighting about over there).
Oh, and about the slavery thing, that wasn't me, i wasn't part of that. I can't deny the histroy of my country but if i would have been there i wouldn't have done it anyways. But a whole lot of people still are with the Catholic Church, even after that. Whats there too stop it from happening again? I know people won't start Genocide Again but there are a lot more crimes people can commit in the name of God. i believe there comes a time that certain people would start a war again, and since there is so munch communication in the world everybody would fight against it. Thu the result would be catastrofic.
-------signature-------
Never explain comedy or satire or the ironic comment. Those who get it, get it. Those who don't, never will. -Michael Moore
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:17 pm |
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| lionhead wrote: | man, i don't ignore the fact the Church did good things too, i just can't believe you don't see the difference between the Crusaders then and yourselfs now, there is no difference. And no, i don't mean no difference in point of view on the world or genocide is gods will but Faith. Faith, you all think there is a god and because you belief there is you are happy, you think that God will protect yuo and you family and as long as you are good yuo will go too heaven. But the Crusaders and all those who commited those crimes thought the same thing man. So how can you be so Naive to think that YOU really do good, how can YOU think your actions are the right ones, how can YOU think god will protect you?
Yes you do ignore they do good things. You never once mention it. There is a huge difference. In that time virtually everyone was a fundementalist. So they believed that killing "non-believers" was a good thing. They were wrong about that. They did not adhere to the teachings of God. I know my actions are the right ones, because I don't commit murders and claim God told me to do it. I do good, because I am tolerant(UNLIKE YOU) and love my neighbor. No matter who they are. The Crusaders did not think the same as me. Yes they believed that God loved them and their actions, but God never called for a Crusade. I don't believe he asked us to kill "non-believers". How many times do I have to tell you that the Crusades was not the result of God or Religion, but men that are fanatics and corrupt.
I'm not attacking you Founder, i'm attacking the other people who are part of your Religion. I'm talking about Mobsters who kill people and go too church, ask forgiveness and truly believe that they are doing it the right way. Aren't you disgusted by your own Religion because that is tolerated?
You're attacking my Faith. It seems to me you're biggest grief is with the people, not the Religion. So STOP blaming the Religion. Blame the followers. Disgusted that forgiveness is tolerated? No not at all. A large part of my Faith is that God does not turn his back on you no matter what you've done. All you have to do is admit what you've done. I agree that those mobsters are not going down the correct path, but that doesn't change the fact that forgiveness is not a bad thing.
Do you know how wrong it is too Tolerate that? Appereantly a whole lot of people tolerate it becasue nobody is doing anything about it. How can a Priest allow a Unpunished criminal carrying a gun walk into his so called "House of God" and grant him forgiveness too Jesus or whom ever, have they no shame?
Tolerate what? Forgiveness? Why are you so pissy about forgiving? Priests don't know these people are "mobsters". They offer forgiveness to those who seek it. People like them need it most.
and you all think those Crimes against humantiy are in the past, for the Church well forget it but lets talk about the muslims, they are now what the catholics where in the Past. and they are doing it for the same god i might add. They have the same Beliefs as Catholics do, just like the Jews and they are still Waging war over that Jerusalem(don't flame me if i'm wrog about that, but something close too that is what they are fighting about over there).
So now all Muslims are evil? You're a bad person. (I'd say worse to you, but I'd get banned) These people are fundementalists. Muslims are not terrorists, just the crazy fundementalist people. Stop being so intolerant to people that are different from you. I know a lot of good Muslim people. They are not bad. Again, you blame the Relgion when clearly its the people that are at fault here.
Oh, and about the slavery thing, that wasn't me, i wasn't part of that. I can't deny the histroy of my country but if i would have been there i wouldn't have done it anyways. But a whole lot of people still are with the Catholic Church, even after that. Whats there too stop it from happening again? I know people won't start Genocide Again but there are a lot more crimes people can commit in the name of God. i believe there comes a time that certain people would start a war again, and since there is so munch communication in the world everybody would fight against it. Thu the result would be catastrofic. |
I wasn't part of the Crusades. Nor are any Catholics to this day. You wouldn't have done it anyways? I don't believe that. Your posts prove you're very intolerant. I'm sure you would have been a slave master and enjoyed it.
A whole lot of people are still Dutch even after the HORRIBLE things you've done. So you're point is worthless as usual.
Stop what? Another Crusade? The Catholic Church would never do that and no Catholic would ever support it. Nothing can stop crimes but blaming it on Religion is stupid. People who do crimes in God's name are wrong.
The rest of your post makes no sense. People would start a war but people be against it? I can't understand anything you're saying.
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zero
Rear Admiral
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 4566
Location: Texas
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| Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:17 pm |
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So... if I go out and kill 4 people, knowing it is wrong.. rob them or whatever, and go to church... admit I was wrong.... and pray for forgivness... I will be saved again? And again?
Thats a little lame.. I don't think anyone should be forgiven for taking a life unless they are mentally ill and were not in control of thier actions.
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:37 pm |
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| Founder wrote: |
Tolerate what? Forgiveness? Why are you so pissy about forgiving? Priests don't know these people are "mobsters". They offer forgiveness to those who seek it. People like them need it most.
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Now you are being ignorant. Those priest know damn well that they are criminals. In places like Big cities the churches are easy going, need too keep getting money to stay alive and they will forgive everything. But does that mean anthing? No, of course not. but when does it then? what is the reason of the Church anyways? Nowehre in the bible it says anything about the Church, why is it important too you people? Does it protect, does it bless, does it distinquish?
| Founder wrote: | So now all Muslims are evil? You're a bad person. (I'd say worse to you, but I'd get banned) These people are fundementalists. Muslims are not terrorists, just the crazy fundementalist people. Stop being so intolerant to people that are different from you. I know a lot of good Muslim people. They are not bad. Again, you blame the Relgion when clearly its the people that are at fault here.
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oh come on, read what it says. The muslims are doing the wrong things the Catholics did in the past. what are we saying about them? what is the Vatican Saying about them? what are You saying about them?
I am saying that their religion caused the war, caused all the suffering a death, doesn't that make you wonder: Is there even a god? what is the difference between them, me, Atheists and fascist(just 2 examples)? not God i can tell you
i don't believe in a god, that doesn't make me any different from them. But, they see that they can make mistakes and ask god for forgiveness so they can make more of them. I think its reasonable too call that intolareable.
They use their faith as an excuse too wage war. I find that disgusting. Thats the reason i find it hard too believe you and all other catholics still believe there is a god, nothing in the whole world would signify(?) that and being catholic wouldn't do a thing eighter. You believe there is a god, fine But it doesn't mean a thing, it shouldn't anyway. some of you even think its a fact. Who do you do that?
There is not an ounce of history that shows there is something out there protecting us, trying too set us on the right path. Nothing, history has even shown that many times over.
I want too reread what i just posted, but think its alright. if there is something wrong in it i'm sorry... I'm trying.
-------signature-------
Never explain comedy or satire or the ironic comment. Those who get it, get it. Those who don't, never will. -Michael Moore
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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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| Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:18 pm |
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You show a lack of understanding of Christianity. I'm Protestant, so it's slightly different but most things are the same.
You say that people go out, and commit the crimes and then ask for forgiveness and God is supposed to forgive them and they do it again. That's not true as such. God doesn't forgive the sins if they are not geniunly sorry. If they are then you can be forgiven but if not then He knows you aren't so doesn't as such.
You also say that if you do good you go to heaven. That is not true. Simply, if that was the case we'd all be screwed. There is a term called grace, it means getting what you don't deserve. So even though we do stuff bad then we can be forgiven, you just have to ask God to forgive you (and mean it).
German's (this is one example, all groups have done similar things) were involved in the killing of many many people in the second world war. That was more recent than the crusades, so should all of them be thought of as evil and that they could do it again any time soon?
The church IS actually mentioned in the bible. It is not compulsory, but it is verg good to go. You meet other people that you can talk about problems and help build each other up. All of my best friends who I trust the most are from my church.
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:44 pm |
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Back on topic, Thanks.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:58 pm |
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| zero wrote: | So... if I go out and kill 4 people, knowing it is wrong.. rob them or whatever, and go to church... admit I was wrong.... and pray for forgivness... I will be saved again? And again?
Thats a little lame.. I don't think anyone should be forgiven for taking a life unless they are mentally ill and were not in control of thier actions. |
Thankfully you're not God or many people would be in Hell. If you kept commiting murder over and over and then asking for forgiveness, only to commit murder again, you're not serious about the forgiveness. It doesn't work that way. You find it lame? Good. Now go away.
| lionhead wrote: | | Now you are being ignorant. Those priest know damn well that they are criminals. In places like Big cities the churches are easy going, need too keep getting money to stay alive and they will forgive everything. But does that mean anthing? No, of course not. but when does it then? what is the reason of the Church anyways? Nowehre in the bible it says anything about the Church, why is it important too you people? Does it protect, does it bless, does it distinquish? |
The priests know damn well? Really? Are you a priest? Do you control them? Do you read minds? Then how the hell would you know what is going through their minds? No they don't know. Priests don't ask about your personal life. You would know that if you were actually a MEMBER of a Religion. They need money? You are aware that you don't pay to have your sins forgiven. They wouldn't get money out of it. Again you would know that if you had faith in something bigger than yourself.
What is the reason for the Church? Oh I don't know.....
They are where Catholics get their teachings of God from. They are almost like teachers. The Church was formed from people who wanted to devote their life to God. It doesn't have to be mentioned in the Bible, although there are passages that people say are refering to the Church. Also, how the Hell would you know its not mentioned in the Bible. You don't read the Bible or know anything about it. Next time you ask such a stupid question, I won't dignify it with a response.
| lionhead wrote: | oh come on, read what it says. The muslims are doing the wrong things the Catholics did in the past. what are we saying about them? what is the Vatican Saying about them? what are You saying about them?
I am saying that their religion caused the war, caused all the suffering a death, doesn't that make you wonder: Is there even a god? what is the difference between them, me, Atheists and fascist(just 2 examples)? not God i can tell you |
I did read what you said. It still makes no sense. Its not Muslims, I told you its fundementalist. What? You can't read?
What are we saying about them? What? MAKE SENSE!
The Church already condemned these heinous acts that the terrorists are commiting.
What I'm I saying? What are you trying to imply? That I support them? I don't like what they are doing.
Again, Religion is not the cause. Its the people. Why do you keep asking the same question over and over? I answered it like 50 times. It doesn't make me wonder anything. God does not "allow" anything. If you actually followed a faith, you would know that God created man to live without his direct influence. FREE WILL. So again, the problem is the people.
The difference between a Terrorist, Athiest(you), and Fascist? I'd answer that question, but I'd get banned/warned if I did.
| lionhead wrote: | i don't believe in a god, that doesn't make me any different from them. But, they see that they can make mistakes and ask god for forgiveness so they can make more of them. I think its reasonable too call that intolareable.
It makes you VERY different. People don't make mistakes because they think God will say its ok later on. They make mistakes because they are Human. If someone were to commit murder over and over and over and keep asking forgiveness each time after, obviously that person is not serious about the forgiveness. You have to truly ask for forgiveness and if you feel that the act you commited was wrong, you wouldn't keep doing it again.
They use their faith as an excuse too wage war. I find that disgusting. Thats the reason i find it hard too believe you and all other catholics still believe there is a god, nothing in the whole world would signify(?) that and being catholic wouldn't do a thing eighter. You believe there is a god, fine But it doesn't mean a thing, it shouldn't anyway. some of you even think its a fact. Who do you do that?
I agree that using God's name in the name of war is wrong. Again, you're blaming the wrong source. You blame God and Religion, but its man's fault. If you weren't so closeminded and hateful, you would be able to look at the teachings of God(Jesus, Allah, Krishna, Bhudda, etc etc etc) and see they want peace.
Of course it doesn't mean anything to you. You can never understand how important faith is to people. Some of us think what is fact?
There is not an ounce of history that shows there is something out there protecting us, trying too set us on the right path. Nothing, history has even shown that many times over.
I want too reread what i just posted, but think its alright. if there is something wrong in it i'm sorry... I'm trying. |
Not really. History has shown us the opposite, but you look at through intolerant eyes. You regard Religion with anger. Which leads me to believe you must have been beat up a lot by Religious people or something. Your taking this WAY too personal. If you don't believe in God, then why are you so obssesed with breaking good people's faith? You must have been hurt by Religion somehow. How sad....
Well anyways, I've answered your questions like 10 times. So if you want to continue this conversation further, ask new questions and stop ignoring me answers.
Back on topic....
This movie wasn't there to show how evil the Catholics were. It was about a historic conflict.
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:51 pm |
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Well, just look at that lovely change to being BACK on TOPIC,
last time I'll say it nicely.
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madlilnerd
Duchess of Dancemat
Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 5885
Location: Slough, England
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| Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:37 am |
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Did anyone here actually go and SEE Kingdom or Heaven? Because I want to know if it's worth watching when it comes out on DVD.
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zero
Rear Admiral
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 4566
Location: Texas
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| Thu Jun 02, 2005 1:26 pm |
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I haven't watched the whole movie... Just bits and pieces. It is really violent though...
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Thu Jun 02, 2005 1:31 pm |
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Almost everything is violent these days.  I have not seen the movie yet. I probably wait til it comes out on DVD.
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zero
Rear Admiral
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 4566
Location: Texas
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| Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:17 pm |
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I think it would be worth watching just to get a better idea of how things were way back when....
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:55 pm |
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I liked it!
And in the movie it even said, "We fight over an offence we did not give", just thought of that line after reading the previous "discussions", but since I don't want Link to get mad at me, I'll leave it at that.
The second DVD was great, especially the "History vs Hollywood" bit they had on there.
Found the entire quote. Liked it, so posting it, 
| Quote: | Balian of Ibelin: [To the people of Jerusalem] It has fallen to us, to defend Jerusalem, and we have made our preparations as well as they can be made. None of us took this city from Muslims. No Muslim of the great army now coming against us was born when this city was lost. We fight over an offence we did not give, against those who were not alive to be offended. What is Jerusalem? Your holy palaces lie over the Jewish temple that the Romans pulled down. The Muslim places of worship lie over yours. Which is more holy?
[pause]
Balian of Ibelin: The wall? The Mosque? The Sepulchre? Who has claim? No-one has claim.
[raises his voice]
Balian of Ibelin: All have claim! |
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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