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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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 Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:58 pm |
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How about we open some refinerys in the U.S. then?
It's because of the far-left environmentalists that we can't build more. There's plenty of wasted space in the desert West and the arctic north to use, never in anyone's way.
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Zeke Zabertini
Captain
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 4832
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| Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:00 pm |
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I'm not saying gas stations don't inflate prices. Pretty much every retail establishment does. I'm saying that you can't truthfully claim a set, constant price that the stations are getting their product at.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:02 pm |
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I didn't. I gave an example of what they do. Just like you can't blame the price problems all on the government, the war, refineries, etc...
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Zeke Zabertini
Captain
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 4832
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| Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:03 pm |
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| LightningBoy wrote: | How about we open some refinerys in the U.S. then?
It's because of the far-left environmentalists that we can't build more. There's plenty of wasted space in the desert West and the arctic north to use, never in anyone's way. |
That's a fine idea, but more refinerys won't lower costs. They'll raise prices if anything, because the companies will need the capital to build them. It's not a matter of us not being able to refine enough oil to serve America's needs, it's a matter of the cost of oil itself and the peripheral costs of dealing with bringing it to the consumer, as well as the natural price inflation (which is nothing new) that Theresa noted. When new refinerys are needed, you can bet they'll be built.
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Zeke Zabertini
Captain
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 4832
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| Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:05 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | | I didn't. I gave an example of what they do. Just like you can't blame the price problems all on the government, the war, refineries, etc... |
Wait, what? When did I blame gas prices on the government or the war? In that list I only even mentioned refineries, and I'm not blaming them for high prices. It's a matter of supply and demand, simple capitalist economics. You being Ms. Conservative I'm sure you can grasp that.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:12 pm |
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Wow, sensitive? You basically outright call me a liar, and then react like that? And yeah, there's a lot I can grasp. Let's lower the standard of conduct some more, shall we? I was clearly saying it was a compilation of things, not one single things, jeez.
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Some of us fall by the wayside
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Zeke Zabertini
Captain
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 4832
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| Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:17 pm |
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I didn't call you a liar, I told you that your implication that gas stations' greed was a primary reason for high prices was incorrect; because it was. I'm not insulting you here, I'm telling it like it is. Besides, I have every right to react to you putting words in my mouth.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:23 pm |
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Again, I didn't, but clearly you are going to choose to take offense to everything. Kind of surprising for someone who's claiming to want utopia, but whatever. It's not my fault if you choose to take things personally, when I've told you repeatedly that they aren't, and if you choose to misconstrue my words.
I'm so done.
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Zeke Zabertini
Captain
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 4832
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| Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:31 pm |
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Step back a moment. I think it is you who's taking offense. All I did was respond to your comments. You're the one getting upset about it. In any case, you're right. This thread is about oil drilling in the ANWR, not gas prices.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:43 pm |
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| LightningBoy wrote: | How about we open some refinerys in the U.S. then?
It's because of the far-left environmentalists that we can't build more. There's plenty of wasted space in the desert West and the arctic north to use, never in anyone's way. |
Good points. We should USE that space!
| Zeke Zabertini wrote: | | Step back a moment. I think it is you who's taking offense. All I did was respond to your comments. You're the one getting upset about it. In any case, you're right. This thread is about oil drilling in the ANWR, not gas prices. |
They are an aspect of it, however. Gas prices should, theoretically, decrease because of the drilling in ANWR.
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Zeke Zabertini
Captain
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 4832
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| Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:32 pm |
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I'm going to say two facts again. One: Building more refineries isn't going to help gas prices unless we reach the point where the current refineries can't keep up with demand, and the oil companies won't allow that to happen. They'll build more first. Two: Gas prices will decrease only a negligible amount, if at all, if the ANWR is drilled.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:38 pm |
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| Zeke Zabertini wrote: | | I'm going to say two facts again. One: Building more refineries isn't going to help gas prices unless we reach the point where the current refineries can't keep up with demand, and the oil companies won't allow that to happen. They'll build more first. Two: Gas prices will decrease only a negligible amount, if at all, if the ANWR is drilled. |
I would say more than a negligible amount, but sure it won't be much, but it will be sufficient. Especially since our dependence on foreign oil will decrease.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Zeke Zabertini
Captain
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 4832
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| Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:45 pm |
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Okay, I'll buy that for the sake of argument. Supposing we do decide to drill though, don't you think the situation will have already changed by the time the drilling facility is constructed and operating? This project is going to take a long time, and it's going to be faught by Democrats pretty much all the way. I just don't think the small profit to be made for the average consumer is worth the fight conservatives are putting up about this.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:47 pm |
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| Zeke Zabertini wrote: | | Okay, I'll buy that for the sake of argument. Supposing we do decide to drill though, don't you think the situation will have already changed by the time the drilling facility is constructed and operating? This project is going to take a long time, and it's going to be faught by Democrats pretty much all the way. I just don't think the small profit to be made for the average consumer is worth the fight conservatives are putting up about this. |
More than 3 million tons (actually, I think it's billions) is not a small profit. Think about it  It's really worth the fight.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Zeke Zabertini
Captain
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 4832
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| Thu Apr 28, 2005 6:01 pm |
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I don't believe so. Especially since we need to be focusing on finding alternative energy, not getting more oil. The more oil we give ourselves access to, the longer it will take for alternative energy to become a priority.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:10 pm |
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In Bush's Presidential Press Conference tonight, he was very articulate about his 4-step plan on energy, and I think it's good.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Starbuck
faster...
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 8715
Location: between chaos and melody
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| Fri Apr 29, 2005 6:58 am |
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Yeah, saw that. I think there must have been a typo in this article, because A. 2000 acres COULD NOT bring in 30 billion barels of oil. B. They probably wouldn't bother with only 2000 acres. Its probably more like 20,000 or 200,000. I'll have to go do a little more research on it, but 2000 acres isn't that large of an area, and unless its all oil from about 10feet down, I don't think it could bring in as much oil as RM says.
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webtaz99
Commodore
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 1229
Location: The Other Side
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| Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:44 am |
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| Zeke Zabertini wrote: | | I'm going to say two facts again. One: Building more refineries isn't going to help gas prices unless we reach the point where the current refineries can't keep up with demand, and the oil companies won't allow that to happen. They'll build more first. Two: Gas prices will decrease only a negligible amount, if at all, if the ANWR is drilled. |
Check your facts: we already have reached the point where the current refineries can't keep up with demand. That's part of why prices are so high.
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"History is made at night! Character is who you are in the dark." (Lord John Whorfin)
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Zeke Zabertini
Captain
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 4832
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| Fri Apr 29, 2005 9:22 am |
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Indeed? Please show me those numbers or an official source. If I'm mistaken I want to know.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Fri Apr 29, 2005 4:50 pm |
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| 4evajaneway wrote: | | Yeah, saw that. I think there must have been a typo in this article, because A. 2000 acres COULD NOT bring in 30 billion barels of oil. B. They probably wouldn't bother with only 2000 acres. Its probably more like 20,000 or 200,000. I'll have to go do a little more research on it, but 2000 acres isn't that large of an area, and unless its all oil from about 10feet down, I don't think it could bring in as much oil as RM says. |
Well, it was PRESENTED IN the news, not typed and I read it, but I'm not sure. My guess is that it is million, and that is STILL a lot. That is what 2000 acres there can bring.
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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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| Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:41 am |
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| webtaz99 wrote: | | Zeke Zabertini wrote: | | I'm going to say two facts again. One: Building more refineries isn't going to help gas prices unless we reach the point where the current refineries can't keep up with demand, and the oil companies won't allow that to happen. They'll build more first. Two: Gas prices will decrease only a negligible amount, if at all, if the ANWR is drilled. |
Check your facts: we already have reached the point where the current refineries can't keep up with demand. That's part of why prices are so high. |
How about we increase the amount of small scale renewable energy sources for areas, using the best one(s) for that area. Then it will lower the emissions, it will lower the fuel dependency and prices and make the current supplies last longer.
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Ithildin
Junior Cadet
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 16
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| Sat Apr 30, 2005 12:11 pm |
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A quick fix isn't the answer. Massive pollution will mar the alaskan wildlife for ages.. for some oil? It's a non-renewable resource that will run out yet again. Why not create a solution for the problem rather than slapping a band-aid on it which will destroy a unique and beautiful habitat? Why are people so nearsighted lately?
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Starbuck
faster...
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 8715
Location: between chaos and melody
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| Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:03 pm |
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| Ithildin wrote: | | A quick fix isn't the answer. Massive pollution will mar the alaskan wildlife for ages.. for some oil? It's a non-renewable resource that will run out yet again. Why not create a solution for the problem rather than slapping a band-aid on it which will destroy a unique and beautiful habitat? Why are people so nearsighted lately? |
Thats what I've been saying.
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webtaz99
Commodore
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 1229
Location: The Other Side
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| Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:04 pm |
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| Zeke Zabertini wrote: | | Indeed? Please show me those numbers or an official source. If I'm mistaken I want to know. |
{found in 15 seconds on Google:}
http://www.energybulletin.net/4711.html
Published on 14 Mar 2005 by Prudent Bear. Archived on 15 Mar 2005.
The View from the Summit of Hubbert's Peak
by Marshall Auerback
RELATED NEWS:
How to deceive friends and influence people: Oil crisis lies...
Saudi fails to assure US over oil supply...
OPEC says it's lost control of oil prices...
Analyst fears global oil crisis in three years...
Bush to raise question of oil production with Saudi Arabia...
��Understanding depletion is simple. Think of an Irish pub. The glass starts full and ends empty. There are only so many more drinks to closing time. It�s the same with oil.� � Colin J. Campbell
The Organisation of the Petroleum Exporting Countries will try to calm a nervous oil market this week by pledging that it is prepared to meet customer demand by continuing to pump oil above its official quota limits in an effort to cool oil prices, which are trading near record nominal levels of $55 a barrel. All very fine and well, but even OPEC has all but conceded that there is very little they can do to bring oil prices down substantially.
Algeria�s minister for energy and mines has conceded what many in the �Peak Oil� camp have been arguing for quite some time: OPEC has reached its production limit, and trying to stretch output by one million barrels per day isn't likely to lower oil prices. Chakib Khalil said prices were high because of world economic growth � particularly in the United States and China:
"OPEC has reached its production limits. It doesn't have much production capacity. If it came to a crunch, it has capacity for one million barrels (more per day), and I don't think a production increase would influence the barrel price." he told reporters last week. Depletion dynamics are, as the geologist M. King Hubbert predicted decades ago, alive and well.
The problem of increasing supply shortages has also been exacerbated by oil companies' failure to add new refining capacity to keep up with global demand for petroleum products. This is exacerbating already tight oil supply conditions and fuelling the rise in oil prices to nominal record highs.
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"History is made at night! Character is who you are in the dark." (Lord John Whorfin)
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webtaz99
Commodore
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 1229
Location: The Other Side
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| Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:08 pm |
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| Jeremy wrote: | | webtaz99 wrote: | | Zeke Zabertini wrote: | | I'm going to say two facts again. One: Building more refineries isn't going to help gas prices unless we reach the point where the current refineries can't keep up with demand, and the oil companies won't allow that to happen. They'll build more first. Two: Gas prices will decrease only a negligible amount, if at all, if the ANWR is drilled. |
Check your facts: we already have reached the point where the current refineries can't keep up with demand. That's part of why prices are so high. |
How about we increase the amount of small scale renewable energy sources for areas, using the best one(s) for that area. Then it will lower the emissions, it will lower the fuel dependency and prices and make the current supplies last longer. |
I hate to pop your bubble, but most places that could have hydro do have hydro. And the places with wind are showing that it won't work in as many places as previously thought. And I've said this so many times I feel like a scratched CD, but solar will never supply enough energy for transportation or indrustry.
-------signature-------
"History is made at night! Character is who you are in the dark." (Lord John Whorfin)
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