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lex
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Dec 2004
Posts: 226
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 Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:50 pm |
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| Link, the Hero of Time wrote: |
Jesus, spoke out and humanized Judaism in the name of god.
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What do you mean by this? Are you saying that Judaism was inhuman or something? I'm very curious to know what you're saying here.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:53 pm |
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| lex wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | JanewayIsHott wrote: | Being gay is not a sin sillies  . |
Actually, it is. The Church is right on this matter, |
Actually, your assertion is, at best, unclear, and, at worst, inaccurate. I assume that, when you say "the Church," you mean "Christianity." (If I'm wrong, then I apologize.) Here's a problem: there is no longer one universal Christian Church; there hasn't been, for hundreds of years. And there is a large number of Christian churches that do NOT hold homosexuality to be a sin - and I'm not just talking newly-formed, unestablished, small churches. I'm talking major Christian sects, such as Episcopalianism.
We've discussed this before, I know, but I'll point out, once again, that it's NOT by any means determined that homosexuality is condemned by the Bible. Many churches, theologians, scholars, and clergy know better, thanks to improved translations, historical study, etc., that the readings that supposedly damn same-sex relations have been misunderstood, misread, and mistranslated. |
I am pretty sure that when he said "The Church" he meant The Catholic Church. 
Even then though, being gay is not a sin, just the actions....
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lex
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Dec 2004
Posts: 226
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| Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:54 pm |
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| LightningBoy wrote: | | The main focus of life (in an evolutionary sence) is to reproduce, to spread your seed, doesn't Gay marriage kind of reject that notion? |
If you're going to take that line, you'd better stick to the missionary position. LOL.  Oral sex, for example, is out. Same with sex if birth control is in use. You can't procreate that way, so don't even bother with it. Sorry, I know it scuks. 
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:59 pm |
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I have no problem with that; I personally don't beleive in recreational sex.
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lex
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Dec 2004
Posts: 226
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| Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:08 pm |
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| LightningBoy wrote: |
Marriage is a very sacred institution with long held religious and moral backgrounds, for it to change now would a travesty. |
I'm sorry if I seem antagonistic, but this is just rhetoric - it sounds good, but it's just not so. The institution of marriage has been around alot longer than Christianity has, and, for the majority of its existence (both pre- and post- Christianity), has been based on reasons of business, breeding, etc. The institution was long considered civil as opposed to sacred; it wasn't until the 16th Century that the Church decreed that marriages must be celebrated in the presence of a priest, for example.
Anyway, even if what you said were true, that same moral and sacred background is certainly not exclusive to heterosexuals.
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:14 pm |
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When in the history of the world (christian or not) has "Gay Marriage" been recognized?
It's a contradiction of terms. Why push so hard to make a contradiction recognized as legitimate?
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lex
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Dec 2004
Posts: 226
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| Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:22 pm |
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| LightningBoy wrote: | When in the history of the world (christian or not) has "Gay Marriage" been recognized?
It's a contradiction of terms. Why push so hard to make a contradiction recognized as legitimate? |
I didn't say it has been legitimized. What I said was that the nature of marriage has varied greatly over the centuries, and, for most of those years, has been based on purely practical reasons.
And I disagree that "gay marriage" is a contradiction in terms. A contradiction in terms would be ... oh, say "military intelligence," for example ... LOL, ok, ok, relax, everyone, it was just a joke! 
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:41 pm |
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By definition a marriage is a man and a woman. By definition the word Gay encompasses same sex.
So that would mean "Gay Marriage" is a same-sex union of a man and a woman? Contradiction.
And the basic idea of marriage has NEVER changed before this. Finite details are one thing, the kind of people involved are a whole nothing ball of wax.
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lex
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Dec 2004
Posts: 226
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| Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:53 pm |
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| LightningBoy wrote: | By definition a marriage is a man and a woman. By definition the word Gay encompasses same sex.
And the basic idea of marriage has NEVER changed before this. Finite details are one thing, the kind of people involved are a whole nothing ball of wax. |
LOL, well, I guess we're at a standstill here. We're not debating theory; I am presenting to you factual information. It's not my OPINION that the basic idea of marriage has not been unchanging; it's historical fact. Even a small amount of reading on your part would show this to you. And when you say "By definition, a marriage is ..." I must ask you to qualify your statement - whose definition are you citing? The amount of controversy that's taking place right now about this very question is evidence that what you claim is an established definition is, in fact, not established at all, and understood differently by different people.
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:02 am |
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The basic idea of marriage has ALWAYS been this:
the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law
From the dictionary. Until now, that ideal has never changed.
You can present aws many facts as you wish, but you haven't yet shown to me and time in history where the above has not been true.
So get off you're high horse, and debate this legitimately.
Also, you bring up christianity, I never once mentioned it. I said "long held religious and moral backgrounds" I never once brough Christianity of any form up, but still, religion has always (in one way or another) recognized marriage only as one man one woman. This is the backbone of the marriage; this is what makes it a marriage.
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:30 am |
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I have been a christian ever since I was 15 and I am 30 now. I know what bible says and no I don't misread it. It does say homosexuality is a sin. People just come up with their own point of view on things instead of facts.
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Jeff Miller
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 22 Nov 2001
Posts: 23947
Location: Mental Ward for the Mentaly Unstable 6th floor, Saint John's 1615 Delaware Longview Washington 98632
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| Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:59 am |
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I'm just currious can marriage be really claimed by a religon? if so is there proof?
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:43 am |
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| Rbgirl wrote: | | I have been a christian ever since I was 15 and I am 30 now. I know what bible says and no I don't misread it. It does say homosexuality is a sin. People just come up with their own point of view on things instead of facts. |
And yet, the bible you read was ment to be interpreted by small kinship groups not large cities. Any Biblical Scholar will tell you that.
| Lightningboy wrote: | The basic idea of marriage has ALWAYS been this:
the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law |
uhhh, no it hasn't. There are many cases in the worlds of ancient greece, Sparta, Thebes, Rome, even in Royalty where that hasn't been true. That is YOUR basic idea of marriage.
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Zeke Zabertini
Captain
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 4832
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| Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:55 pm |
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The Bible is a storybook. It should not be generally held as fact.
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:08 pm |
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Yeah, Kevin's right. Since homosexual sexual intercourse can in no way lead to pregnancy, it's a sin. Same reason for why birth control, condoms, and *beep* is. So yeah, he's right. Homosexuality isn't the sin, just the action. But then again, that's just the Catholic Church's stance.
Sorry to be so blunt, but that's how it goes.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:26 pm |
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| Link, the Hero of Time wrote: |
| Lightningboy wrote: | The basic idea of marriage has ALWAYS been this:
the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law |
uhhh, no it hasn't. There are many cases in the worlds of ancient greece, Sparta, Thebes, Rome, even in Royalty where that hasn't been true. That is YOUR basic idea of marriage. |
Untrue, although the greeks did regularly practice homosexuality, they never had marriage of same sex couples.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:30 pm |
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| Zeke Zabertini wrote: | | The Bible is a storybook. It should not be generally held as fact. |
In your opinion.
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:11 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | | Zeke Zabertini wrote: | | The Bible is a storybook. It should not be generally held as fact. |
In your opinion. |
Exactly. Who are YOU to tell someone that they can't hold it as fact, if they BELIEVE in it. All of the Bible except for the beginnings of Genesis is FACT for me. It's not right for you to tell someone that they shouldn't accept it as fact.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:21 pm |
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In the beginning of Genesis is right RM, that's your opinion as well and it depends on what demonation you are too. I believe the whole bible is fact in my opinion.
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:25 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: |
Exactly. Who are YOU to tell someone that they can't hold it as fact, if they BELIEVE in it. All of the Bible except for the beginnings of Genesis is FACT for me. It's not right for you to tell someone that they shouldn't accept it as fact. |
We step into the circle once more.
who are you to tell someone that what you believe is what everyone should believe?
What you may hold as fact may not be the same thing someone else does.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:28 pm |
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| Link, the Hero of Time wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: |
Exactly. Who are YOU to tell someone that they can't hold it as fact, if they BELIEVE in it. All of the Bible except for the beginnings of Genesis is FACT for me. It's not right for you to tell someone that they shouldn't accept it as fact. |
We step into the circle once more.
who are you to tell someone that what you believe is what everyone should believe?
What you may hold as fact may not be the same thing someone else does. |
What? Did I tell him to believe it as fact? No. But should he have said that people shouldn't take it as fact and then said that it isn't? No. He did NOT need to say that. That was an ignorant and mean-spirited statement.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:29 pm |
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I'd bet that we can get to at least ten pages of circling, 
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:30 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | | I'd bet that we can get to at least ten pages of circling, |
But Link was wrong. I wasn't the one who started the circling But yes, you're right. Let's stop arguing about the Bible being fact (or not).
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:33 pm |
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This whole issue is circles, IMO.
"'Round and 'round we go, where we stop, nobody knows"
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:39 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | What? Did I tell him to believe it as fact? No. But should he have said that people shouldn't take it as fact and then said that it isn't? No. He did NOT need to say that. That was an ignorant and mean-spirited statement. |
I'm sorry... So I guess that all the "Gay is a sin", "They shouldn't be allowed to marry" and other such comments aren't your way of pressing what you believe as fact on other people?
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