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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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 Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:03 pm Giving Guest Worker Visas to Illegal Immigrants |
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Alright, tomorrow and Saturday for Speech and Debate we are debating this very topic: "Resolved: Guest worker visas should be given to illegal aliens." I want BOTH SIDES said, with CONSTRUCTIVE arguments for some practice. I will try to argue both sides, because I have to be able to.
Alright, go!
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Zeke Zabertini
Captain
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 4832
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| Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:06 pm |
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That's a mistake. Give illegals visas and it will only increase illegal immigration. If you want a guest worker program, you should only give guest worker status to foreigners who want to enter the country legally.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:12 pm |
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| Zeke Zabertini wrote: | | That's a mistake. Give illegals visas and it will only increase illegal immigration. If you want a guest worker program, you should only give guest worker status to foreigners who want to enter the country legally. |
And I thought you were truly opposite!  Well, that's obvious there, but I need more.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Zeke Zabertini
Captain
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 4832
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| Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:22 pm |
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That's always been my position. I might approve of the Guest Worker Program if it could provide for corrupt employers, but it doesn't. Giving illegals visas will be a bad idea until illegal immigration stops, at which point it will become a good idea. The benefit either way is that we'll have a way of keeping track of at least some of those immigrants. The GWP begins to look good when only non-residents are eligible, but the problem remains that it's bound to lower the price of labor and hurt the average working American. If that could be somehow resolved, I suppose it would be worthy of support. Between the increase of illegal immigration and the damage to indigent workers though, any guest worker proposal isn't worth it. Besides, we're living in a country with several million unemployed people. Let them take those jobs.
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zero
Rear Admiral
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 4566
Location: Texas
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| Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:08 pm |
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^ Most of those unemployed people choose to be that way. Either they don't have to work, Or they enjoy being unemployed and feel they are better than that to be working mowing lawns, or washing dishes.. busting tables etc.
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Zeke Zabertini
Captain
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 4832
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| Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:45 pm |
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The unemployed count only includes people actively seeking employment who are not employed. It doesn't count retired people or people not looking for jobs.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:24 pm |
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I'll post my con speech later. We won two debates and lost two, because there are some good formal debaters there. But yeah.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:24 pm |
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My Con Speech for...
| Quote: | Resolved: Guest Worker Visas should be granted to Illegal Immigrants.
Giving illegal aliens guest worker visas is harmful to the United States, specifically our national security and our economy. Allowing illegal aliens to obtain guest worker visas is essentially �legalizing illegal immigration.� The definition of illegal is not lawful. We are a sovereign nation, and illegal aliens are breaking our laws to get into our country. Therefore, I disagree with this resolution.
First, giving illegal aliens guest worker visas would injure the US economy. The US government has an estimated 293 plus million people1, and a great amount of these people are in the lower-class, or near that class, of the nation. These people--23% according to 1998 statistics--tend to take low-skilled occupations, and illegal immigrants working in these jobs would bring competition to unprecedented levels, not giving the legal immigrants and citizens the benefits that would come from getting a job. They take the jobs away from those Americans that need them. Many Americans, polls suggest, simply want to "get by" and be able to put a shelter over their heads and receive food, water, and clothing for themselves and their families. And so these people tend to take jobs such as construction, janitorial, fast food, etc. jobs away from rightful Americans and legal immigrants. If you go to the East of the country, you see many non-Hispanic people still in these jobs. However, with the policy of legalization of illegal immigration--this amnesty--this number would lessen significantly, bringing the unemployment rate up. The unemployment rate as of March of 2005, according to the US Department of Labor, is at 5.2%. If more and more illegal immigrants were legally getting jobs that Americans would rightfully get, then the unemployment rate would skyrocket. Fewer and fewer citizens would have as many opportunities as they should.
The country of Switzerland has implemented such a program, and since doing so their GDP has gone down from 2.5% to 1.2% per year, as stated in a Washington Post article. This cannot be allowed to happen to the United States, and because more immigrants enter this country illegally than in any European country--with an estimated 1 million per year--the situation in the US would be much more drastic. Although the United States government has stated that there are only 8 to 12 million illegals in the country now, it is estimated, based on the adding of statistics and by the illegal immigration watch site DesertInvasion.us, 20 million illegal immigrants are now in the United States.
Second, illegal immigration would go up if this program were to be implemented. Since the proposition of such a program by the White House, illegal immigration increased at least 25%, and according to a February 2004 Fox News article, 50 to 90% of illegal aliens captured claimed that they were entering America for the "amnesty" proposal--and those are there words. In June of 2004, after 5 months after the proposal, official Border Patrol statistics had revealed that illegal immigration increased 80% compared to April of 2003. And so it is reasonable to assume this 25% increase. Surely this proves that this could only add to the illegal immigration problem.
And finally, national security is at stake. To summarize a statement by Colorado Congressman Tom Tancredo, Middle-Eastern terrorists are going to Brazil, adapting to the culture over a course of 6 months, and receiving Brazilian papers. Then, they head up to Mexico where they pay drug dealers $50,000 to smuggle them in, and it is hard to tell how a Brazilian looks exactly, so they are able to use their papers to get around the country. These papers, if a terrorist would apply (because what terrorist would?), could be used to allow terrorists to get into the program, seem legitimate, as their identities would be hard to trace back because of their adaptation, etc, and then allow them to roam free about the country without worry. Such a possibility is a serious threat to our national security, and yet the passing of this resolution only allows for it.
Therefore, I urge you to vote no on this resolution. |
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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zero
Rear Admiral
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 4566
Location: Texas
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| Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:08 pm |
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| Zeke Zabertini wrote: | | The unemployed count only includes people actively seeking employment who are not employed. It doesn't count retired people or people not looking for jobs. |
I was not implying anything on the retired people. And how hard can getting a job be? It may not be the one you dreamed about, But you can always get a job... somewhere.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:16 pm |
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| zero wrote: | | Zeke Zabertini wrote: | | The unemployed count only includes people actively seeking employment who are not employed. It doesn't count retired people or people not looking for jobs. |
I was not implying anything on the retired people. And how hard can getting a job be? It may not be the one you dreamed about, But you can always get a job... somewhere. |
Actually, out of the 5.2% unemployed, 11.1% are unemployed. It DOES count. (From the Department of Labor)
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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zero
Rear Admiral
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 4566
Location: Texas
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| Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:58 pm |
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^ It does not make sense to count the retired people. They have already done thier time working, and they are in no shape to continue. So, I agree with Zeke on this issue. They should not be counted. If they ARE counted, obviously someone is trying to make things look worse than they already are.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:17 pm |
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| zero wrote: | | ^ It does not make sense to count the retired people. They have already done thier time working, and they are in no shape to continue. So, I agree with Zeke on this issue. They should not be counted. If they ARE counted, obviously someone is trying to make things look worse than they already are. |
They don't count retired people, though. 
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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zero
Rear Admiral
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 4566
Location: Texas
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| Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:21 pm |
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Oh, sorry I thought you said they did count them. My bad!
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:42 pm |
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^It's okay. They DO count those who are NOT retired and yet are willfully unemployed, and they are 11.1% of the 7.7 million unemployed, as of March of 2005.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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zero
Rear Admiral
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 4566
Location: Texas
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| Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:45 pm |
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^Yea, i got that. Thanks ya
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Zeke Zabertini
Captain
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 4832
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| Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:39 pm |
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It may be just me, but that made absolutely no sense to me.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:42 pm |
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| Zeke Zabertini wrote: | | It may be just me, but that made absolutely no sense to me. |
It's the government. What about it makes sense?
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Zeke Zabertini
Captain
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 4832
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| Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:16 pm |
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A lot.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:22 pm |
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| Zeke Zabertini wrote: | | A lot. |
I meant the government
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Starbuck
faster...
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 8715
Location: between chaos and melody
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| Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:27 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | ^It's okay. They DO count those who are NOT retired and yet are willfully unemployed, and they are 11.1% of the 7.7 million unemployed, as of March of 2005. |
11.1% of 7.7 million is only about 847000 people. That really isn't that many.
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Zeke Zabertini
Captain
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 4832
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| Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:31 pm |
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Show me something official that says they count the willfully unemployed. I was taught differently in my economics course, and if I'm wrong I want to know about it.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:32 pm |
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But that's the point. That shows that most people don't WANT to be unemployed, and WANT to have a job. But the reason why you don't see a substantial growth is partially because illegal immigrants are willing to work for less. That's why the program could benefit--because that would mean that Americans would get a better chance, however it would also be a worse chance because competition would be higher (as in who would work harder, the illegal or legal, as well as better?), and it would also be worse because of the increase in illegal immigration, etc. That's why border security is necessary first.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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| Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:10 pm |
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But there is nothing to show that a lot of the people who aren't wanting to work as they will get benefits. Here in the UK there is a number of people who do that. Another similar thing is that people pretend to be homeless and can make more money than many others who do normal work.
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Zeke Zabertini
Captain
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 4832
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| Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:02 pm |
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That still seems eerie to me. The whole "homeless scheme" thing. It doesn't seem possible, but it's been adequately demonstrated to convince me that it works. I guess the dollars add up.
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:13 pm |
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It's more of a learned behaviour than a scheme. 
It's a quandary that all governments faced, although in ones with extensive (albeit anachronistic) welfare systems, such as Canada and the UK, the problem is more obvious. Provide too little for unemployed citizens, and the rate of poverty increases. Provide too much, and these citizens become too dependent upon the government. Once they learn that the government will give them this money, and they decide that their quality of life is an acceptable alternative to employment, they choose to continue this way.
I think that welfare systems should be overhauled, and increasingly targeted to reeducating people and exploring career opportunities. I have not looked extensively at the way the welfare budget is allocated, however, so I cannot offer many more specific suggestions to any of the nations' systems.
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