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madlilnerd
Duchess of Dancemat
Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 5885
Location: Slough, England
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 Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:04 pm |
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| Quote: | | It may just be me, but that quote seems an awful lot like stereotyping, seeing as how you are throwing a whole political party into one generalization as "the lot who encourage abstinence and hate abortion". |
But don't people join a political party because they agree with it's views? I mean, you join a party with similar views to you, don't you?
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Zeke Zabertini
Captain
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 4832
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| Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:24 pm |
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Yeah, but when there are only two damn choices there's sure to be plenty of deviance in the ranks.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:44 pm |
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| madlilnerd wrote: | | Quote: | | It may just be me, but that quote seems an awful lot like stereotyping, seeing as how you are throwing a whole political party into one generalization as "the lot who encourage abstinence and hate abortion". |
But don't people join a political party because they agree with it's views? I mean, you join a party with similar views to you, don't you? |
I do not identify myself as being either Republican or Democrat, since they both have aspects I like, and aspects that I don't like.
Don't ask don't tell is a perfect policy, however, in this case where the soldiers sexuality is in the open anyways, I still don't see him causing any problems, only outsiders creating problems. Let him serve his country for goodness sakes.
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:53 pm |
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| purple_kathryn wrote: | | Humans have a hell of lot of growing up to do. |
Someone has a dissenting opinon to yours, and you say they need to "grow up"... That's pretty intolerant of you, if you ask me.
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:00 pm |
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I agree with you Lightningboy. People get offended of opinions it seem
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madlilnerd
Duchess of Dancemat
Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 5885
Location: Slough, England
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| Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:06 pm |
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| Quote: | | Yeah, but when there are only two damn choices there's sure to be plenty of deviance in the ranks. |
Here in England we have lots of choices so you choose a party that suits your wants, needs and views. We also allow openly gay men into our armed services. People serve our country reguardless of sexual orientation. Maybe America should catch up...
But then, I can't talk much about this, as I don't know all that much about American politics, they don't teach that in English schools.
Maybe we should abandon representitive democracy and embrace real democracy. In real democracy, the entire country influences changes etc. and all the goverment do is carry out the wishes of the people. For example, there would be a vote: do you think gay men should be allowed to serve openly in the military. If enough said yes, then it happens. Simple. I don't like people "higher" than me making decisions in their fancy houses in Downing Street, decisions that could affect the whole world. It's so lame, I can't even vote yet. My opion counts for diddly squit just because I'm only 15
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:13 pm |
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The kind of democracy you propose is rather scary. Holding a plebiscite everytime an issue comes up would just be silly, and quite costly. Plus, the fact that this makes the government too weak, increasing the chances that any person could just walk in and take controll. I don't know about in England, however in the United States, although our system of government is not perfect and is corrupt in places, I do beleive for the most part, it is efficient, operates well, maintains the powers of the people, and allows us to keep our rights. As for youth suffrage, there is a reason for it, and many people that are your age are not as informed, mature, or intelligent as you.
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:15 pm |
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| madlilnerd wrote: | | Maybe America should catch up... |
By who's standards are we behind?
Don't ask, don't tell. If you choose to be gay, but you want to be in the military, you can keep your mouth shut about it. Fair enough. I'm really getting sick of these pretend social standards that Europeans want the U.S. to abide by.
So, maybe it's time that Europe "catches up" to some standards on morality, obsenity, and sexuality. Because it's Sexual promiscuity in general which is the problem, not Gay vs. Straight.
And, yes, I am sorry to generalize, i'm being grandiose to prove a point about accepting political differences, and arguing them, without saying someone is inferior, or "behind" because of that opinion.
Last edited by LightningBoy on Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:23 pm; edited 2 times in total
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madlilnerd
Duchess of Dancemat
Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 5885
Location: Slough, England
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| Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:20 pm |
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/\ thankyou. I did see a program that was all about how if you want to be the next president, you're more likely to win if you have more money. Probably bribes or something. It was called "The White House for Sale". On another program they showed Americans on the street a map of the world and told them to point to Afghanistan and Iraq. None of them got it right, but I think this was English propaganda to make us hate you
I wouldn't call it suffrage, more "restriction". Most fifteen year old are either potheads or morons, but it's strange that people think I'm intelligent for I have quite a low IQ. Maybe I just have an absorbing mind.
In our country we have child soldiers. You are not legally an adult until 18, but you can join the army at 16. If you include army cadets, which is non combat but still army training, I think it starts as low as 12.
Would it be costly if it was an internet poll? But then I suppose there would be fraud and people voting more than once. I suppose then, we should just sit back and let the dudes in the big houses make the decisions. If we don't like it, we can always kick them out in a few years, or rebel.
Peace out!
madlilnerd
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Seven of Nine
Sammie's Mammy
Joined: 16 Jun 2001
Posts: 7871
Location: North East England
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| Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:57 pm |
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| LightningBoy wrote: | | madlilnerd wrote: | | Maybe America should catch up... |
By who's standards are we behind?
Don't ask, don't tell. If you choose to be gay, but you want to be in the military, you can keep your mouth shut about it. Fair enough. I'm really getting sick of these pretend social standards that Europeans want the U.S. to abide by.
So, maybe it's time that Europe "catches up" to some standards on morality, obsenity, and sexuality. Because it's Sexual promiscuity in general which is the problem, not Gay vs. Straight.
And, yes, I am sorry to generalize, i'm being grandiose to prove a point about accepting political differences, and arguing them, without saying someone is inferior, or "behind" because of that opinion. |
Yes, so America has the highest rates of teen pregnancy in the western world, makes the most violent and/or *beep* films, and many of Hollywood's films have a lot of obsenity. But of course, their standards are higher than Europe's 
The human rights record of the US is appalling. However, it's a new country, and most of Europe's was as bad if not worse 100 years ago. Most of Europe to varying degrees have embraced Socialism as the best way to run their countries. The USA has embraced Capitalism.
Neither the USA or Europe is better, they're just different. They place different emphasis on different values, either human rights (Europe) or morality and "an eye for an eye" (the USA). Unfortunately, many of these issues conflict, but it's up to the countries themselves to decide what is best FOR THEM. I may not agree with some of the USA's policies, but since most of them don't affect me, I shouldn't concern myself too much with them.
Human rights and the USA justice system don't affect me personally, but it affects a British citizen who I feel has done no wrong, therefore I'm helping in a campaign to get him tried in this country rather than over there. However, I'm trying to keep that offboard, and am not actually trying to alter the USA's justice system or how they deal with human rights.
Both the USA and Europe have their faults, but both have their good points. They're different, yes, but neither is better than the other.
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madlilnerd
Duchess of Dancemat
Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 5885
Location: Slough, England
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| Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:05 pm |
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/\ that was a beautiful solution to an ugly battle of words. Well done Seven of Nine. 
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:54 pm |
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| Seven of Nine wrote: | | The human rights record of the US is appalling. |
The U.S. has, without a doubt, the best human rights record of any nation which has existed over the past 200 years. In fact, our only major problem, slavery, started from before the time we were a country, and then declined slowly from that point forth.
And, no the U.S. System is not perfect, but our legal system is just about as good as it can be. You hear about the most extreme of cases from time to time, but you never hear about the thousands fair rulings.
As for teen pregnancy rates, that's more because the United States has some of the highest pregnancy rates (PERIOD) of the western world, we also have a very younger population that many.
I still don't think you read the last paragraph of my post. My example was only to make the point that things like "catch up" should not be said.
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Seven of Nine
Sammie's Mammy
Joined: 16 Jun 2001
Posts: 7871
Location: North East England
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| Sat Apr 09, 2005 5:18 pm |
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| LightningBoy wrote: | | Seven of Nine wrote: | | The human rights record of the US is appalling. |
The U.S. has, without a doubt, the best human rights record of any nation which has existed over the past 200 years. In fact, our only major problem, slavery, started from before the time we were a country, and then declined slowly from that point forth.
And, no the U.S. System is not perfect, but our legal system is just about as good as it can be. You hear about the most extreme of cases from time to time, but you never hear about the thousands fair rulings.
As for teen pregnancy rates, that's more because the United States has some of the highest pregnancy rates (PERIOD) of the western world, we also have a very younger population that many.
I still don't think you read the last paragraph of my post. My example was only to make the point that things like "catch up" should not be said. |
The reclassification of torture to "coercive interrogation" (sp?) doesn't stop it being torture. It just makes it legal in that country. But again, the US has different values to those in Europe. Not better or worse, just different.
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Dirt
Exercise Boy
Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 2086
Location: a tree
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| Sat Apr 09, 2005 5:29 pm |
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It's sad that some people have to be childish and can't cope with the fact that people are different. Good thing black people stepped up to the front of the bus back in the day. 
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:13 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | ^If I'm in the military, and most people, I believe, I wouldn't want the risk of a man doing something to me when I'm focussed on the war, and I don't think that troops should be distracted knowing that the person is a homosexual. They should be focussing on the task at hand. |
Goodness, RM, are you Adonis come to life? What an arrogant statement. Does that mean that you also couldn't work with a woman because you'd be so focused on the fact that she may want your body? Seems to me that would be your problem.
Again, personally, I couldn't care less. I hate that it's an issue.
-------signature-------
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And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:14 pm |
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lol. yeah like T said why is this even an issue? if he could preform his duty obkectivly before he can now
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:09 am |
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| Dirt wrote: | | It's sad that some people have to be childish... |
Again, who are you to say that it's childish? Just because you dissent doesn't mean you're nessessarily the only valid opinion.
In fact, i'd say it's pretty intolerant to call someone childish based on a valid opinion. There NEEDS to be two sides to every coin, something more and more people are failing to realize.
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madlilnerd
Duchess of Dancemat
Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 5885
Location: Slough, England
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| Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:33 am |
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| Quote: | | The human rights record of the US is appalling. |
Hmm, I was in the Model United Nations, which is where they pretend 12 year olds run the world, and we learnt loads about human rights etc. The real USA didn't sign the rights of the child policy. I can't remember why.
I was representing Chile, so all I had to talk about was HIV and how global warming was an issue
Rates of teen pregnacy is worked out as a percentage or average, not as a number in thousands or whatever.
What is actually wrong with a gay man serving his country? Surely the USA should be glad that he is, as it shows that everyone can give something back to the USA, and do their bit for their country. Maybe if gay men were accepted into the army then their would be less predijuice against them elsewhere as they would be seen as war heros.
| Quote: | | It's sad that some people have to be childish and can't cope with the fact that people are different. |
Actually, maybe we should learn from children. If you see four year olds playing with each other, they don't care about the colour of the other ones skin or whether the other will grow up to be gay or straight. They just get on with doing what the came to the sand pit to do- play.
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Seven of Nine
Sammie's Mammy
Joined: 16 Jun 2001
Posts: 7871
Location: North East England
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| Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:53 am |
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| madlilnerd wrote: | | Quote: | | The human rights record of the US is appalling. |
Hmm, I was in the Model United Nations, which is where they pretend 12 year olds run the world, and we learnt loads about human rights etc. The real USA didn't sign the rights of the child policy. I can't remember why.
I was representing Chile, so all I had to talk about was HIV and how global warming was an issue
Rates of teen pregnacy is worked out as a percentage or average, not as a number in thousands or whatever.
What is actually wrong with a gay man serving his country? Surely the USA should be glad that he is, as it shows that everyone can give something back to the USA, and do their bit for their country. Maybe if gay men were accepted into the army then their would be less predijuice against them elsewhere as they would be seen as war heros.
| Quote: | | It's sad that some people have to be childish and can't cope with the fact that people are different. |
Actually, maybe we should learn from children. If you see four year olds playing with each other, they don't care about the colour of the other ones skin or whether the other will grow up to be gay or straight. They just get on with doing what the came to the sand pit to do- play. |
The reason the USA didn't sign the rights of the child policy is because it outlawed using the death penalty against minors- another human rights issue. Luckily, there has recently been a change in legislation over there, so that no person who was under 18 at the time of the offence can receive the death penalty. Maybe they'll reconsider signing the rights of the child policy too, although that's for them to decide.
As for children being more tolerant- well, yes, I think after the age of 2 or 3 (before which all the child seems to think of is me me me.. at least to my observations), children do seem to be very tolerant of others-no matter how they're different, so long as they're used to them being around. They can be intolerant to things they don't know though, such as a person with facial disfigurement. However, we're going wildly off topic now
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voy416
Captain
Joined: 28 Oct 2001
Posts: 631
Location: Rock Bottom
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| Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:30 pm |
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I do not know why he had to "come out". when he knew the military was going to get on him about being gay. what does being gay have anything to do with the military. do your job and be happy. although i gay myself am happy he did speak up shows how far gay people have come but it is American politics all ya have to do is say the word gay and BAM it is an issue. why can't they just let people live there life but noooo The USA must fight everything and everyone and it does not help when your own president is a homophobic.
-------signature-------
To Be Are Not To Be......Is That Really The
Question
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Zeke Zabertini
Captain
Joined: 13 Sep 2002
Posts: 4832
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| Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:47 pm |
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Well, one could argue that segregation wasn't a major issue. Hell, there were blacks who supported racial division. I'm of the opinion that these things ought to be addressed, however. It's easy to just say "well, that's okay," but as long as the issue stays unresolved there will always be prejudice and adversity between groups.
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zero
Rear Admiral
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 4566
Location: Texas
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| Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:19 pm |
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| voy416 wrote: | | American politics all ya have to do is say the word gay and BAM it is an issue. why can't they just let people live there life but noooo The USA must fight everything and everyone and it does not help when your own president is a homophobic. |
It is called Religion. It always falls back on that. And it does not help that our leader is a homophobic because what kind of example is he setting? This is America, land of the free right? Why should we be forced to comply with HIS beliefs??
sigh....religion....
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:00 pm |
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| zero wrote: | | voy416 wrote: | | American politics all ya have to do is say the word gay and BAM it is an issue. why can't they just let people live there life but noooo The USA must fight everything and everyone and it does not help when your own president is a homophobic. |
It is called Religion. It always falls back on that. And it does not help that our leader is a homophobic because what kind of example is he setting? This is America, land of the free right? Why should we be forced to comply with HIS beliefs??
sigh....religion....
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Yes Religion is the source of all evil in the world.
Its not Religion. For some people it is, but not all. Bush already gave you all the reason he is against Gay Marriage, if you all want to ignore it, then thats your problem. Not his. By the way? Its not just his beliefs. Its MANY peoples beliefs.
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Wed Apr 13, 2005 9:48 am |
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If you gonna be gay fine. Be proud but don't tell. Simple as that if you gonna be in the military. Military has rules like everything else. Go to clubs and express it, don't have to in the military. No, I am not racists against gay even though I disagree with the life style. I got a friend that is gay so he knows how I feel about things.
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zero
Rear Admiral
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 4566
Location: Texas
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| Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:05 pm |
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| Rbgirl wrote: | | If you gonna be gay fine. Be proud but don't tell. |
That makes no sense. Be proud.. But don't show it, eh?
How can you be proud of something and not show it?
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