| Do you agree with abortions? |
| Yes, they should be legal. They are a good thing. |
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11% |
[ 4 ] |
| Yes, but they aren't a "good thing." |
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34% |
[ 12 ] |
| Don't care/undecided/in-between |
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11% |
[ 4 ] |
| No. |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| No way! It's an evil act! Let the child live! What about ITS rights?! And what about morality?! |
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42% |
[ 15 ] |
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| Total Votes : 35 |
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| Author |
Message |
Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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 Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:49 am |
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so basically the choice is
A: live the worst possible life imaginable, hardly eating except what you scrounge from trashbins or scavenge. Most likely dying of some disease, starving to death, or getting killed by one of a hundred things like the elements or other homeless people/ spoiled kids looking to have fun.
or
B: Not living at all.
The choice is fairly obvious.
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Monkey
Captain
Joined: 05 Feb 2004
Posts: 833
Location: On a quest you probably wouldn't believe.
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| Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:50 am |
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| Link, the Hero of Time wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: |
If I really think that those who commit to abortions are murderers (which they are), then that view should be allowed to be expressed, because there is backing to that. It is a life, and it is being killed without committing a crime--except being conceived. |
so a woman/girl who was raped and doesn't want the child is a murderer? What about the woman/girl who was involved with incest, is she a murderer?
Also, isn't the womb part of a woman's body? There is no right that gives one being the right to live inside another. A fetus isn't life, it's potential life, therefore it doesn't have the rights other life has. |
Please humor me for only a moment.
How is it that something that grows, requires nourishment and is affected by outside influences not life? Say the mother decides to eat food but somehow has it directed to only benefit her own body and not that of the "fetus" would that child continue to grow? Of course not! Now take another object that grows such as a nebula, does this need nourishment? Care? Influence from the outside? Obviously none of these are needed for the growth of a nebula or any inanimate object. However all these are required for the maturation of a living organism, therefore proving that the child is in fact very alive.
Also it would seem to me that you have challenged the honor of Miss Hannah and in doing so you have inherited the promised consequence.
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:53 am |
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| Link, the Hero of Time wrote: | so basically the choice is
A: live the worst possible life imaginable, hardly eating except what you scrounge from trashbins or scavenge. Most likely dying of some disease, starving to death, or getting killed by one of a hundred things like the elements or other homeless people/ spoiled kids looking to have fun.
or
B: Not living at all.
The choice is fairly obvious. |
Yep, i'll take the first. I do beleive that you control your own fate, starting from a disadvantage or not, you've always got a ladder to climb, it's how far you go that counts.
Plus, if that's not true, at least I know I tried, lived as well as I could, and then I can end it myself. That's for me to decide, not some floosie who got knocked up, and didn't want to face up to the responsibility.
The kind of people who choose abortions are the kind of people I would'nt even trust with the descision between paper and plastic. I certainly don't want them to choose life or death for someone else.
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:59 am |
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| Monkey wrote: |
Please humor me for only a moment.
How is it that something that grows, requires nourishment and is affected by outside influences not life? Say the mother decides to eat food but somehow has it directed to only benefit her own body and not that of the "fetus" would that child continue to grow? Of course not! |
A parasite does that same thing, as does bacteria and most diseases. Are those considered Life?
| Monkey wrote: |
Also it would seem to me that you have challenged the honor of Miss Hannah and in doing so you have inherited the promised consequence. |
Riiiiiiiiiight.
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:03 am |
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| Link, the Hero of Time wrote: | | A parasite does that same thing, as does bacteria and most diseases. Are those considered Life? |
Er . . . I'm taking a stab in the dark here, but I might say, yes? 
Bacteria, parasites, and diseases play an important role in our ecology, and their contributions should not be downplayed because of their size or perceived disadvantages to humans. 
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:04 am |
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| Link, the Hero of Time wrote: |
A parasite does that same thing, as does bacteria and most diseases. Are those considered Life? |
Yes, but certainly not HUMAN life.
A third-trimester unborn human has a heartbeat, fingerprints, DREAMS, sentient thought, ect. It is exactly the same as a born child, except its location is a bit more inconvenient.
You can't arbitrarily say where it is a life, and where it isn't. The only sold point you can go one way or the other from is conception, since before that, it's genetics are undetermined, once the chromosomes have been mixed, and randomized, you have something completely new, something who's fate is sealed. Before that point, nobody knows how it will work out.
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:05 am |
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| Hitchhiker wrote: | | Link, the Hero of Time wrote: | | A parasite does that same thing, as does bacteria and most diseases. Are those considered Life? |
Er . . . I'm taking a stab in the dark here, but I might say, yes?
Bacteria, parasites, and diseases play an important role in our ecology, and their contributions should not be downplayed because of their size or perceived disadvantages to humans. |
Or advantages. Humans would not be able to process milk if not for our symbiosis with some benign intestinal paracites. 
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:09 am |
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eep... actully that came out wrong, making me look horribly stupid in the process.... I ment to say when compared to human life.
A human being has thought, choice and completity nothing else has. A fetus lacks these until way into the pregancy. As you have already stated, The Third Trimester
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:15 am |
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Ah yes, but it's all in the potential. I would label it rather careless for one to get pregant (or impregnate someone) and then abort the fetus previous to the third trimester.
I would support stricter regulations in abortion procedures, and perhaps even bans on abortions in the third trimester. I don't want abortions banned outright, I don't think it would do any good, nor do I think abortions are the problem in and of itself. People should be informed enough to make their own decisions, if they make the 'wrong choice' then that is their mistake.
Even after this very long and round topic, I still find myself undecided when it comes to my moral position on abortions. I agree that a life is a life is a life, whether it is within or without the womb. I definitely support abortions when the life of the mother, child, or both are endangered by the pregnancy; I also don't think abortions should simply be used as a way to avoid the unpleasant consequences of unprotected sex. I find myself in the middle. 
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:18 am |
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But it's genetics have already been contrived toward it. A second before the sperm touches the egg, it can be one of thousands of genetic combinations, whereas after that, it's set.
Where, exactly in the pregnancy, does it get the properties of life? You can't draw an arbitrary line, based on its abilities. By that logic, I can make a statement like "humans can walk", which is true, then if an infant is still crawling, I can say its not human yet.
Unwanted pregnancies can be prevented, the child should not have to pay the ultimate price for the mother's lack of prevention.
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Monkey
Captain
Joined: 05 Feb 2004
Posts: 833
Location: On a quest you probably wouldn't believe.
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| Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:53 am |
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Just what do you mean by this?
You don't believe me, or you aren't hurt by this?
The latter is more probable
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Birdy
Socialist
Joined: 20 Sep 2004
Posts: 13502
Location: Here.
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| Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:38 am |
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| Link, the Hero of Time wrote: | so basically the choice is
A: live the worst possible life imaginable, hardly eating except what you scrounge from trashbins or scavenge. Most likely dying of some disease, starving to death, or getting killed by one of a hundred things like the elements or other homeless people/ spoiled kids looking to have fun.
or
B: Not living at all.
The choice is fairly obvious. |
Thank you Link, I totally agree with your post. That was what I was trying to make clear to others, now you did it for me.
-------signature-------
Nosce te ipsum
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:05 am |
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I strongly disagree. Abortions is wrong and it is murder. U won't change my mind. I know the truth. To bad people are blind. One day women who kill their babies will meet their maker one sweet day and it is not going to be pretty. I am not judging but just the truth unless they get forgiveness for it
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Birdy
Socialist
Joined: 20 Sep 2004
Posts: 13502
Location: Here.
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| Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:14 am |
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^ I know you believe that Rbgirl, and I know I can't change your mind.
You can't change my mind either.
I believe that if I had an abortion, and I would die when I'm old or something, I don't believe God will judge me. I don't have the same religion as you I guess. This is my truth.
-------signature-------
Nosce te ipsum
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:42 pm |
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| Monkey wrote: |
Just what do you mean by this?
You don't believe me, or you aren't hurt by this?
The latter is more probable |
A little from column A, a little from Column B, But a lot from Column C (I don't really care).
| LightningBoy wrote: | | Where, exactly in the pregnancy, does it get the properties of life? You can't draw an arbitrary line, based on its abilities. By that logic, I can make a statement like "humans can walk", which is true, then if an infant is still crawling, I can say its not human yet. |
But what is life? It's already said that it gains all characteristics in the Thrid Trimester.
And an arbitary line can be drawn. It's been done here by everyone against abortion. go back and read all the posts. But again, using your logic, I can make a statement of "Humans have living cells." or something like that. I am thus declaring that everything is human life, even the bunch of cells that becomes a fetus.
Your argument can work both ways.
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:47 pm |
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| Link, the Hero of Time wrote: | But again, using your logic, I can make a statement of "Humans have living cells." or something like that. I am thus declaring that everything is human life, even the bunch of cells that becomes a fetus.
Your argument can work both ways. |
Ah, but those cells cannot become a human. I cannot take a skin cell and induce it to become a baby. A fertilized egg can become a full grown human, given time. LightningBoy is arguing that the moment of fertilization is about as close as one can get to determining 'life', since at that moment the genetic structure of the new child is determined (barring subsequent unfortunate mutations ); this makes sense to me.
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:11 pm |
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I was trying to point out how broad his "logical statement" could become.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:42 pm |
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First off, LightningBoy is right, and I cannot add points to his arguement. Excellent job.
Second, Link, what was first life on Earth, hmmm?
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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