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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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 Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:05 am |
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| Jemah wrote: | | not when they kill innocents. and pacifism is better than being bloodthirsty. |
Regardless of what is being reported, you seem to be the type that's always going to assume the worst of those who don't agree with you. I fail to see the point of conversing w/ you at all. One person, in a vehicle that failed to stop for a road block, says that they weren't "warned", and that they were going at a "reasonable speed". Question, reasonable according to whom? Because it clearly wasn't reasonable to the men and women guarding the road block.
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Theresa
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Location: United States of America
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| Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:11 am |
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| Quote: | Former Iraq Hostage Returns to Italy
By PATRICK QUINN
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - Nursing an injured shoulder, an Italian journalist held by Iraqi insurgents returned to Italy on Saturday, a day after she came under gunfire from U.S. troops while on her way to freedom. An intelligence agent who had helped negotiate her release was killed.
President Bush expressed regret and promised to investigate the incident, which happened at a checkpoint in Baghdad. The military said U.S. soldiers, not knowing the car was carrying journalist Giuliana Sgrena, fired after it failed to slow down.
But Bush's phone call late Friday to Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi did little to assuage anger In Italy, which has been holding its breath over Sgrena's fate for weeks. The shooting was likely to set off fresh protests against Berlusconi for keeping 3,000 troops in Iraq despite strong opposition.
``Another victim of an absurd war,'' said Alfonso Pecoraro Scanio, leader of the Green Party.
A communist senator called for a protest Saturday in front of the U.S. Consulate in Milan.
Sgrena left Iraq after she was discharged from an American military hospital in Baghdad where she had been treated for shrapnel in the shoulder.
Berlusconi was among those at the airport to greet Sgrena on Saturday. She had to be helped out of the small, private jet and was placed in a waiting ambulance. She was expected to be transferred to a military hospital for an operation on her collarbone later Saturday, the news agency Apcom said.
Sgrena, 56, was abducted Feb. 4 by gunmen who blocked her car outside Baghdad University. Last month, she was shown in a video pleading for her life and demanding that all foreign troops - including Italian forces - leave Iraq.
Friday's shooting occurred shortly after her release. It was about 9 p.m. in Baghdad at the time.
The U.S. military said the car was speeding as it approached a coalition checkpoint in western Baghdad on its way to the airport. It said soldiers shot into the engine block only after trying to warn the driver to stop by ``hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots.''
The intelligence agent was killed when he threw himself over Sgrena to protect her from U.S. fire, Apcom quoted Gabriele Polo, the editor of the leftist Italian newspaper Il Manifesto, as saying. Sgrena works for Il Manifesto.
Berlusconi identified the dead intelligence officer as Nicola Calipari and said he had been at the forefront of negotiations with the kidnappers. The prime minister said Calipari had been involved in the release of other Italian hostages in Iraq in the past.
The Americans said two people were wounded, but Berlusconi said there were three - Sgrena and two intelligence officers. One of the officers was in serious condition, according to the Apcom news agency in Italy.
Insurgents have repeatedly attacked checkpoints, and soldiers have often fired on cars that don't obey commands to stop or slow down.
Berlusconi said he had been celebrating Sgrena's release with the editor of Il Manifesto and Sgrena's boyfriend, Pier Scolari, when he took a phone call from an agent who informed them of the shooting.
``It's a shame that the joy we all felt was turned into tragedy,'' Berlusconi said.
The shooting came as a blow to Berlusconi, who continues to face huge protests over his support for the Iraq war and his refusal to withdraw Italian troops. Sgrena's newspaper was a loud opponent of the war.
``It's incredible that a man who was busying himself with the difficult task of saving a life was killed by those who say they are in Iraq to safeguard the life of civilians,'' said Piero Fassino, leader of the Democratic Party of the Left.
Bush called Berlusconi and expressed regret about the incident, Bush spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters Friday night.
``The president assured Prime Minister Berlusconi it would be fully investigated,'' McClellan said.
McClellan wouldn't comment on what the incident might mean for participation by Italy or other countries in the coalition.
Another European reporter, Florence Aubenas, a veteran war correspondent for France's leftist daily Liberation, is still being held in Iraq. Aubenas and her interpreter, Hussein Hanoun al-Saadi, disappeared nearly two months ago.
Iraqis have reported numerous incidents where confusion at U.S. checkpoints has led to U.S. soldiers killing innocent civilians.
In a 2003 friendly-fire incident involving Italians, American soldiers in northern Iraq shot at a car carrying the Italian official heading up U.S. efforts to recover Iraq's looted antiquities. Pietro Cordone, the top Italian diplomat in Iraq, was unhurt, but his Iraqi translator was killed.
Also Friday, four U.S. troops were killed west of the capital in sprawling Anbar province, where American forces launched a sweep two weeks ago to root out insurgents, the military said. The four were assigned to the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force.
About 200 foreigners have been abducted in Iraq in the past year, and more than 30 of the hostages were killed.
Associated Press writer Angela Doland contributed to this report from Rome.
03/05/05 06:10
� Copyright The Associated Press.
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Birdy
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| Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:59 am |
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My newsreporter told me that the US military knew about the rescue operation.
Why, if they knew, would they shoot at that vehicle?
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Jemah
Lieutenant
Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 209
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| Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:06 pm |
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because the united states military is widly comprised of uneducated people. that's why.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:37 pm |
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| Belanna1985 wrote: | My newsreporter told me that the US military knew about the rescue operation.
Why, if they knew, would they shoot at that vehicle? |
Knowing about a rescue operation translates into knowing that a vehicle refusing to stop and moving faster than they should wasn't compromised?
| Quote: | ``hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots.''
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If, after all that, the vehicle still kept coming, no matter how it was marked, the logical, and smart conclusion would be that the vehicles were no longer under the control of whomever they were marked as. Because, clearly, the Italians should have stopped.
But yeah, let's blame the soldiers, because we know they all have to be quite stupid, bunch of rednecks, really, 
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Jemah
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| Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:47 pm |
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well, they did pull the triggers. 
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Seven of Nine
Sammie's Mammy
Joined: 16 Jun 2001
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Location: North East England
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| Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:08 pm |
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For blankets sake, the car should have stopped. It didn't, and maybe the soldiers could've disabled the car without killing anyone. But in the heat of the moment I cannot blame the soldiers for what they did, and I bet they're feeling guilty even though they did the right thing.
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Jemah
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Joined: 04 Mar 2005
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| Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:13 pm |
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they should have. in my opinion, however, if this had been the first time something like this had happened, i would have more tolerance. since it's one of many instances where soldiers have killed innocent people, i have a little less.
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Birdy
Socialist
Joined: 20 Sep 2004
Posts: 13502
Location: Here.
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| Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:49 pm |
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I just heard there wasn't even a road block. How do you explain American soldiers shooting on them, then?  
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
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Location: United States of America
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| Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:52 pm |
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| Belanna1985 wrote: | | I just heard there wasn't even a road block. How do you explain American soldiers shooting on them, then? |
You "just heard"... They had pics..., most definitely a road block.
And the soldiers fired into the engine block, first. Your life, which you feel being threatened, or their life... Yeah, we all know what decision we'd make.
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Jemah
Lieutenant
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| Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:54 pm |
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yes. the decision i'd make? peace. i would honestly rather be killed than to kill another human being. i even feel badly for killing a plant. these soldiers you speak of are hardened killers.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:59 pm |
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| Jemah wrote: | | yes. the decision i'd make? peace. i would honestly rather be killed than to kill another human being. i even feel badly for killing a plant. these soldiers you speak of are hardened killers. |
Hardened killers? Hardly. They are teachers, doctors, lawyers, shop owners, etc... Very few soldiers are career, most only serve to pay for school.
2 of the Sunday School teachers from my church who are in the reserves were called up. I'd hardly classify them as "hardened killers"... You want to be a pacifist, fine, it's a free world, for the most part. But you can't criticize those who aren't, if you don't want the same criticism in return...
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Jemah
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| Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:03 pm |
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i highly doubt many doctors and lawyers are in iraq. the great majority of soldiers are there because of a lack of college education.
they become killers after being there for a while.. and in many cases, (thanks to the mess this "war" has created), they're there for much longer than they had expected. they do become less human i would imagine as time draws on.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
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Location: United States of America
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| Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:11 pm |
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What does "lack of a college education" have to do with anything? College is the only way to not be "stupid"? Huh.
And yeah, there are many doctors and lawyers there, that's the way it works. They're called JAG's, the lawyers, and many of the field hospitals are staffed by what? Doctors. And every soldier, especially Marines, since it's their term, are basic riflemen first. Just because one chooses to serve their country, or be a soldier, doesn't make them stupid. Or a hardened killer. You act like they are given a weapon, and told to shoot anyone who looks different from them... Which, being an American, we couldn't shoot anyone, because we all look different from each other...
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Jemah
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| Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:17 pm |
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no, that's not what i said. i meant to express the fact that many people who are there fighting in actual combat are people without the means of doing otherwise. many come from poor neighborhoods where they haven't gotten a proper education and as a product of such, won't further the persuit of educating themselves. that is why they would choose to be in the military under the pretense of "protecting" their country. do you expect that the lawyers and doctors are fighting in bloody combat?
and yes, america is a "melting pot". but equality as of late is in question. the way gays and people of arabic descent are treated as abominations and terrorists. there is a program in effect that governs how many minorities are enrolled in college and hired at businesses.. no person in the united states is treated as well as a caucasian male.
Last edited by Jemah on Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Theresa
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Joined: 17 Jun 2001
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Location: United States of America
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| Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:21 pm |
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When needed, yeah, I do. I understand that given their expertise, more "value" may be placed on their lives, and that they may be considered less "expendable", but everyone has to do their part. Including the shop owners,  It's easy to desensitize it by calling them hardened killers instead of people, huh?
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:21 pm |
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| Jemah wrote: | | no, that's not what i said. i meant to express the fact that many people who are there fighting in actual combat are people without the means of doing otherwise. many come from poor neighborhoods where they haven't gotten a proper education and as a product of such, won't further the persuit of educating themselves. that is why they would choose to be in the military under the pretense of "protecting" their country. do you expect that the lawyers and doctors are fighting in bloody combat? |
Ah, yes, the 'poverty draft'.
Yes, I do expect lawyers and doctors to be fighting in 'bloddy combat.' In Iraq, there is no such thing as 'non-bloody combat.' Any soldier over there at any time may encounter hostile force, and they are all trained to fight. I may not agree with the objectives of the military, but I respect what they do because it is true that the military keeps me safe (mostly from British subs  ).
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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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| Sun Mar 06, 2005 4:57 pm |
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The only reason I can think the people might not have stopped is that they thought they were under attack from rebels somewhere else, rather than the roadblock. Not sure though, don't know enough to comment fully.
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Birdy
Socialist
Joined: 20 Sep 2004
Posts: 13502
Location: Here.
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| Sun Mar 06, 2005 4:59 pm |
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Here. I found it Theresa.
| Quote: | Ex-hostage disputes U.S. account of shooting
Italian journalist: 'I only remember fire'
Sunday, March 6, 2005 Posted: 4:31 PM EST (2131 GMT)
ROME, Italy (CNN) -- An Italian journalist shot by U.S. forces in Iraq shortly after being freed from her captors disputes a U.S. account of the incident in which she was wounded and a security agent protecting her was killed.
In an article published Sunday in her newspaper, Il Manifesto, Giuliana Sgrena wrote, "Our car was driving slowly," and "the Americans fired without motive."
She described a "rain of fire and bullets" in the incident.
The U.S. military said Sgrena's car rapidly approached a checkpoint Friday night, and those inside ignored repeated warnings to stop.
Troops used arm signals and flashing white lights, fired warning shots in front of the car, and shot into the engine block when the driver did not stop, the military said in a statement.
But in an interview with Italy's La 7 Television, the 56-year-old journalist said "there was no bright light, no signal."
And Italian magistrate Franco Ionta said Sgrena reported the incident was not at a checkpoint, but rather that the shots came from "a patrol that shot as soon as they lit us up with a spotlight."
In an interview with Sky TV, Sgrena said "feeling yourself covered with avalanche of gunfire from a tank that is beside you, that did not give you any warning that it was about to attack if we did not stop -- this is absolutely inconceivable even in normal situations, even if they hadn't known that we were there, that we were supposed to come through."
Rules of engagement permit coalition troops to use escalating levels of force if they feel threatened. They can use lethal force, for example, if a car refuses to stop for a checkpoint.
It remains unclear whether U.S. officials knew that the Italian security team would be taking Sgrena to the airport. U.S. and Italian officials have not said.
She was told "we were less than a kilometer" from the airport, where a plane was waiting to take her back to Rome, "when ... I only remember fire. At that point, a rain of fire and bullets hit us, shutting up forever the cheerful voices of a few minutes earlier.
"The driver started yelling that we were Italians. 'We are Italians, we are Italians.' Nicola Calipari threw himself on me to protect me and immediately, I repeat, immediately I heard his last breath as he was dying on me. I must have felt physical pain, I didn't know why."
She then thought of something her captors had told her: "The Americans don't want you to go back."
Saturday, the left-leaning Il Manifesto accused U.S. forces of "assassinating" Calipari.
Sgrena's partner, Pierre Scolari, also blamed the shooting on the U.S. government, suggesting the incident was intentional.
"I hope the Italian government does something because either this was an ambush, as I think, or we are dealing with imbeciles or terrorized kids who shoot at anyone," he said, according to Reuters.
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Theresa
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| Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:06 pm |
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Yeah, I'd read that. That's when I researched where she worked.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:15 pm |
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She said one thing, then another.
"there was no bright light, no signal."
"a patrol that shot as soon as they lit us up with a spotlight."
Was there or was there not a light?
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Theresa
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Joined: 17 Jun 2001
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Location: United States of America
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| Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:47 am |
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| Quote: | Ex-Hostage Disputes U.S. on Iraq Shooting
By MARIA SANMINIATELLI
ROME (AP) - A steady stream of Italians visited the body of the Italian intelligence officer lying in state two days after American troops in Iraq shot and killed him, while the journalist whose life he saved promised his widow she would find out why they were attacked.
Giuliana Sgrena, who was abducted Feb. 4 in Baghdad, spoke from a Rome hospital where she was recuperating Sunday from a shrapnel wound to the shoulder. The intelligence officer, Nicola Calipari, was killed when U.S. troops at a checkpoint fired at their vehicle Friday as they headed to the airport shortly after her release.
Sgrena said Calipari died shielding her, and that it was possible they were targeted deliberately because America opposes Italy's policy of negotiating with kidnappers.
However, she has offered no evidence to support her claim, and in an interview published in Monday's edition of the daily Corriere della Sera, she said she doesn't know what caused the attack.
``I believe, but it's only a hypothesis, that the happy ending to the negotiations must have been irksome,'' she said. ``The Americans are against this type of operation. For them, war is war, human life doesn't count for much.''
Sgrena has rejected the U.S. military's account of the shooting, claiming instead that American soldiers gave no warning before they opened fire.
The White House said it was a ``horrific accident'' and promised a full investigation.
Sgrena, meanwhile, told private TG5 TV she had spoken with Calipari's wife.
The only thing that I promised and I want to guarantee to her is that we must know the truth, because such exceptional people cannot die for no reason,'' Sgrena said. ``If someone is responsible, we need to know.''
The shooting has fueled anti-American sentiment in Italy, where a majority of people opposed the war in Iraq and Premier Silvio Berlusconi's decision to send 3,000 troops after Saddam Hussein's ouster.
One Italian Cabinet member urged Sgrena to tone down her remarks.
``I understand the emotion of these hours, but those who have been under stress in the past few weeks should pull themselves together and avoid saying nonsense,'' Communications Minister Maurizio Gasparri was quoted as saying by the ANSA news agency.
Gasparri said the shooting would not affect Italian support for efforts to secure postwar Iraq.
Neither Italian nor U.S. officials gave details about how authorities won Sgrena's release after a month in captivity. But Agriculture Minister Giovanni Alemanno was quoted as saying it was ``very probable'' a ransom was paid. U.S. officials have cautioned against ransoms, saying they encourage further kidnappings.
Sgrena, who works for the communist newspaper Il Manifesto - a fierce opponent of the war and a frequent critic of U.S. policy - said she knew nothing about a ransom, and offered no details on the talks.
``The fact that the Americans don't want negotiations to free the hostages is known,'' she told Sky TG24 television by telephone, her voice hoarse and shaky. ``The fact that they do everything to prevent the adoption of this practice to save the lives of people held hostage, everybody knows that. So I don't see why I should rule out that I could have been the target.''
Her editor, Gabriele Polo, said Italian officials told him 300 to 400 rounds were fired at the car. Italian military officials said two other intelligence agents were wounded in the shooting; U.S. officials said it was only one.
White House counselor Dan Bartlett said it was crucial that the facts be determined before judgments were made about the shooting
Speaking Sunday on CNN's ``Late Edition,'' he called the shooting ``a horrific accident'' and pledged a full investigation.
``As you know, in a situation where there is a live combat zone, particularly this road to the airport has been a notorious area for car bombs,'' Bartlett said. ``People are making split-second decisions, and it's critically important that we get the facts before we make judgments.''
Calipari's body was returned to Italy late Saturday, and an autopsy was performed Sunday. ANSA quoted doctors as saying Calipari was struck in the temple by a single round and died instantly.
The body lay in state at Rome's Vittoriano monument and a state funeral was planned for Monday. At least 10,000 people paid their respects Saturday, and the chamber containing his coffin remained open early Sunday as people kept coming.
Calipari was to be awarded the gold medal of valor for his heroism.
Italian military officials said two other agents were wounded, but U.S. officials said it was only one.
03/07/05 04:53
� Copyright The Associated Press.
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The woman just keeps losing credibility. Talk about racist...
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Jeremy
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| Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:24 pm |
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Why would they attack a car if they disagreed with negotiating with terrorists? They may disagree with it, but all that will happen is terrorists will know that they will be likely to get their demands met, so target Italiens. This wouldn't affect Americans. Also I would worry about the sanity of a person who ordered the attack for that reason, knowing the backlash of anti-american feeling that would happen.
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Jemah
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| Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:02 pm |
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what do you expect? when the united states goes around like it's the greatest thing out there attacking whomever they please, they're bound to draw critisism. the us doesn't have much favor in the world right now, especially after the 2004 election. not much favor especially from a country where one of their people was killed by us soldiers. 3-400 rounds.. can you say overkill?
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Republican_Man
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| Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:13 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | | Jemah wrote: | | not when they kill innocents. and pacifism is better than being bloodthirsty. |
Regardless of what is being reported, you seem to be the type that's always going to assume the worst of those who don't agree with you. I fail to see the point of conversing w/ you at all. One person, in a vehicle that failed to stop for a road block, says that they weren't "warned", and that they were going at a "reasonable speed". Question, reasonable according to whom? Because it clearly wasn't reasonable to the men and women guarding the road block. |
RIGHT.
| Theresa wrote: | | Quote: |
The U.S. military said the car was speeding as it approached a coalition checkpoint in western Baghdad on its way to the airport. It said soldiers shot into the engine block only after trying to warn the driver to stop by ``hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots.''
Insurgents have repeatedly attacked checkpoints, and soldiers have often fired on cars that don't obey commands to stop or slow down. |
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Excellent. That is 100% correct! Yeah, WHY in the world can't we give our troops the benefit of the doubt? WHY!
| Theresa wrote: | | Belanna1985 wrote: | My newsreporter told me that the US military knew about the rescue operation.
Why, if they knew, would they shoot at that vehicle? |
Knowing about a rescue operation translates into knowing that a vehicle refusing to stop and moving faster than they should wasn't compromised?
I know! Ridiculous!
| Quote: | ``hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots.''
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If, after all that, the vehicle still kept coming, no matter how it was marked, the logical, and smart conclusion would be that the vehicles were no longer under the control of whomever they were marked as. Because, clearly, the Italians should have stopped.
But yeah, let's blame the soldiers, because we know they all have to be quite stupid, bunch of rednecks, really, |
Exactly. Why can't we, again, give our troops the benefit of the doubt? They are in HARMS WAY. They have to do what they can for security.
| Seven of Nine wrote: | | For blankets sake, the car should have stopped. It didn't, and maybe the soldiers could've disabled the car without killing anyone. But in the heat of the moment I cannot blame the soldiers for what they did, and I bet they're feeling guilty even though they did the right thing. |
Blankets sake! Haven't heared that one! lol
But yeah, I agree.
| Jemah wrote: | | they should have. in my opinion, however, if this had been the first time something like this had happened, i would have more tolerance. since it's one of many instances where soldiers have killed innocent people, i have a little less. |
Do you not understand the situation there? Apparently not.
| Theresa wrote: | | Jemah wrote: | | yes. the decision i'd make? peace. i would honestly rather be killed than to kill another human being. i even feel badly for killing a plant. these soldiers you speak of are hardened killers. |
Hardened killers? Hardly. They are teachers, doctors, lawyers, shop owners, etc... Very few soldiers are career, most only serve to pay for school.
2 of the Sunday School teachers from my church who are in the reserves were called up. I'd hardly classify them as "hardened killers"... You want to be a pacifist, fine, it's a free world, for the most part. But you can't criticize those who aren't, if you don't want the same criticism in return... |
I know! Jemah, forgive me, but your arguments are just RIDICULOUS.
| Jemah wrote: | i highly doubt many doctors and lawyers are in iraq. the great majority of soldiers are there because of a lack of college education.
they become killers after being there for a while.. and in many cases, (thanks to the mess this "war" has created), they're there for much longer than they had expected. they do become less human i would imagine as time draws on. |
Not true. If you want to be ignorant, though, you have that right.
| Theresa wrote: | What does "lack of a college education" have to do with anything? College is the only way to not be "stupid"? Huh.
And yeah, there are many doctors and lawyers there, that's the way it works. They're called JAG's, the lawyers, and many of the field hospitals are staffed by what? Doctors. And every soldier, especially Marines, since it's their term, are basic riflemen first. Just because one chooses to serve their country, or be a soldier, doesn't make them stupid. Or a hardened killer. You act like they are given a weapon, and told to shoot anyone who looks different from them... Which, being an American, we couldn't shoot anyone, because we all look different from each other... |
Theresa, he's just ridiculous. Again, you are right.
| Theresa wrote: | | The woman just keeps losing credibility. Talk about racist... |
I know. Ridiculous.
Jemah, your arguments are just not making any sense to me.
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