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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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 Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:55 am |
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| JanewayIsHott wrote: | | Well make them focus on it. I plan on it. Things don't come up unless they have someone actually pushing for them. It can happen if people decide they care enough about it to make it happen. |
We can't even get Republicans to focus on what's right. How do you expect to get them to focus more on this and less the lobbying?
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:58 am |
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Well at least you can be satisfied to know you tried for what is right instead of what is easy. You could have an impact, but you might not. Either way though, you stood for the right thing instead of just falliing into the easier answer.
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Seven of Nine
Sammie's Mammy
Joined: 16 Jun 2001
Posts: 7871
Location: North East England
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| Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:51 am |
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Most of the countries in the world now manage fine without the death penalty. A lot of them have lower rates of murder and other serious crime than the US. It has been proven that the death penalty doesn't reduce the amount of murders and serious crime, it costs more, and it's irreversable if the wrong person is executed. If you kill one innocent man through the death penalty then it shows the whole system is wrong.
OK, here's a chart showing the murder rates of death penalty states v non death penalty states:
(Figures are per 100,000 population) Source
That shows that the death penalty doesn't deter criminals. This quote from George Bernard Shaw is very true:
| George Bernard Shaw wrote: | It is the deed that teaches not the name we give it. Murder and capital punishment are not opposites that cancel
one another, but similars that breed their kind. |
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webtaz99
Commodore
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 1229
Location: The Other Side
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| Wed Mar 02, 2005 2:01 pm |
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I have a big problem with the idea of incarceration for the sake of incarceration. If someone is redeemable, get on with it. If they are not, or if the nature of their offense is so heinous as to be beyond redemption, society should not expend any more time or resources on them.
And for any bleeding hearts who say that everyone is redeemable, I say you've been lucky enough not to have met certain folks.
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"History is made at night! Character is who you are in the dark." (Lord John Whorfin)
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Wed Mar 02, 2005 2:05 pm |
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If you actually read the numbers instead of just looking at the bars on that chart, the difference in numbers is virtually nil.
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Some of us fall by the wayside
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And some of us sail through our troubles
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webtaz99
Commodore
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 1229
Location: The Other Side
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| Wed Mar 02, 2005 2:13 pm |
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| Seven of Nine wrote: | | Most of the countries in the world now manage fine without the death penalty. A lot of them have lower rates of murder and other serious crime than the US. It has been proven that the death penalty doesn't reduce the amount of murders and serious crime, it costs more, and it's irreversable if the wrong person is executed. If you kill one innocent man through the death penalty then it shows the whole system is wrong. |
First, the death penalty "costs more" only because of the legal process, which is totally separate from the death penalty itself. In most (if not all) states, a death penalty triggers an automatic appeal, meaning at least one more judical review and probably another trial, so of course it costs more. But what costs more is more legal processes.
Likewise, the ability of the system to find the correct guilty party is a totally separate thing from the death penalty. Statistics and human fallabilty guarantee that from time to time innocent people will be found guilty, no matter what the crime or punishment is.
Also, the death penaly may not deter murder, but it is an infallable preventative of repeat offense.
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"History is made at night! Character is who you are in the dark." (Lord John Whorfin)
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Kyre
Commodore
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 1263
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| Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:20 pm |
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| webtaz99 wrote: | | Likewise, the ability of the system to find the correct guilty party is a totally separate thing from the death penalty. Statistics and human fallabilty guarantee that from time to time innocent people will be found guilty, no matter what the crime or punishment is. |
I'm horrified that anyone could willingly continue a course of action when they know that innocent lives will be lost.
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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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| Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:29 pm |
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I'm not for or against the Death penalty, but are the figures that show it is less effective also taking other statistics such as if guns are legal in the states and so on?
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:10 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | | If you actually read the numbers instead of just looking at the bars on that chart, the difference in numbers is virtually nil. |
Good point. And Taz, you're right. But I have a question to throw at the anti-Death Penalty advocates: Would you approve of the execution of a mass murderer like Saddam? What about terrorists? Putting them in prisons would do no good.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:21 pm |
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Average of murder rates among death penalty states in 2003: 5.3
Average of murder rates among non-death penalty states in 2003: 2.9
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=168
^As for people like Saddam Hussein, I am not sure. I think keeping him could be more of a security risk to innocent people than is worth taking.
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webtaz99
Commodore
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 1229
Location: The Other Side
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| Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:02 pm |
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| Kyre wrote: | | I'm horrified that anyone could willingly continue a course of action when they know that innocent lives will be lost. |
What I meant was that sometimes people lie to protect themselves, or tell things that they believe, even though it's not true. And some jurors will believe something even though there was evidence to the contrary. These are human failings, and they can convict an innocent person even though it was not anyone's intent.
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"History is made at night! Character is who you are in the dark." (Lord John Whorfin)
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Borg771
Commodore
Joined: 08 Aug 2002
Posts: 1706
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| Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:18 pm |
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| Quote: | | Good point. And Taz, you're right. But I have a question to throw at the anti-Death Penalty advocates: Would you approve of the execution of a mass murderer like Saddam? What about terrorists? Putting them in prisons would do no good. |
yes and exacting revenge is the answer.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:18 pm |
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| Borg771 wrote: | | Quote: | | Good point. And Taz, you're right. But I have a question to throw at the anti-Death Penalty advocates: Would you approve of the execution of a mass murderer like Saddam? What about terrorists? Putting them in prisons would do no good. |
yes and exacting revenge is the answer. |
Did I ever say anything about revenge? No, I did not, and I don't think that it is revenge, and it shouldn't be used as that. I think that it's the harshest punishment that could be offered, and such people deserve it.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:25 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | I have to say that borgslayer, Taz, and Exalya are RIGHT ON. You know the difference--you deserve the punishment. Now this guy who killed someone (forget exactly...) in 1994 and is now 25 or 26 is getting off the hook!
Oh, and also, if we don't kill them (which really got me to agreeing with the death penalty) they can socialize, join jail gangs, etc. |
Actually this doesnot apply to offenders who commited murder as a minor and are now past the legal age
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At Least In Vietnam, Bush Had An Exit Strategy
It was Bush, not Clinton, who ignored the warning signs for 9/11.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:53 pm |
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I don't care if the Death Penalty stays or if its abolished. But I am firmly against rehibilatating the prisoners and then letting them out. Thats just stupid.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Mar 02, 2005 11:30 pm |
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| Janeway_74656 wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | I have to say that borgslayer, Taz, and Exalya are RIGHT ON. You know the difference--you deserve the punishment. Now this guy who killed someone (forget exactly...) in 1994 and is now 25 or 26 is getting off the hook!
Oh, and also, if we don't kill them (which really got me to agreeing with the death penalty) they can socialize, join jail gangs, etc. |
Actually this doesnot apply to offenders who commited murder as a minor and are now past the legal age |
I know for a fact that it does 
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Seven of Nine
Sammie's Mammy
Joined: 16 Jun 2001
Posts: 7871
Location: North East England
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| Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:40 am |
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I personally think being locked up for the rest of your life is a worse punishment than being executed. Dr Harold Shipman committed suicide rather than stay locked up (He was one of the worst serial killers of the 20th century). I think that the way the US treats suspected terrorists at the moment is appalling, and was shocked to hear the pentagon has redefined torture just to try and justify using it against suspected terrorists. But that's going a bit off topic.
I think Saddam should be locked up for the rest of his natural life, with no luxuries. He'd have to think about what he's done for a long time, and it would eventually get to him.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:10 am |
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| Seven of Nine wrote: | I personally think being locked up for the rest of your life is a worse punishment than being executed. Dr Harold Shipman committed suicide rather than stay locked up (He was one of the worst serial killers of the 20th century). I think that the way the US treats suspected terrorists at the moment is appalling, and was shocked to hear the pentagon has redefined torture just to try and justify using it against suspected terrorists. But that's going a bit off topic.
I think Saddam should be locked up for the rest of his natural life, with no luxuries. He'd have to think about what he's done for a long time, and it would eventually get to him. |
Locking up Saddam would only damage national security. And that first part is what I thought before I learned the truth from people who work in such fields: death truly is harsher than life in prison, for multiple reasons. But you know what? Suicide is something that is done because they do not wish to wait until executed.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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| Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:13 am |
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It depends on the person. Some people would prefer death, others prision. The problem I have with prison here is that people often have better stuff (such as computers, TV's etc) than most people who aren't in prison. Also here the longest sentences are about 15 for life, with them usually been released before then for good behaviour.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:17 am |
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| Jeremy wrote: | | It depends on the person. Some people would prefer death, others prision. The problem I have with prison here is that people often have better stuff (such as computers, TV's etc) than most people who aren't in prison. Also here the longest sentences are about 15 for life, with them usually been released before then for good behaviour. |
Hmmm, yeah, that's similar in our prisons. Plus, do you REALLY think that Saddam will see the error of his ways? No, he won't. He's a hartened criminal bas****.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Jemah
Lieutenant
Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 209
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| Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:01 pm |
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how do you know so much about saddam? o_O
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:18 pm |
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| Jemah wrote: | | how do you know so much about saddam? o_O |
Do you not no about his acts during the 80s? Genocide of the Kurds? I've heard FIRST HAND ACCOUNTS, including a first-person account of one of the FEW SURVIVORS of an incident! He was 12 years old when it happened! Are you blind, or just ignorant? I hope it's the latter...
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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