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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
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 Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:59 pm Pope: Gay marriage is 'evil' |
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| Quote: |
CNN.com
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Pope: Gay marriage is 'evil'
ROME, Italy (Reuters) -- Homosexual marriages are part of "a new ideology of evil" that is insidiously threatening society, Pope John Paul says in his newly published book.
In "Memory and Identity," the Pope also calls abortion a "legal extermination" comparable to attempts to wipe out Jews and other groups in the 20th century.
He also reveals that he is convinced the Turkish gunman who shot him in 1981 did not act alone and suggests that the former Communist Bloc may have been behind the plot to kill him.
The 84-year-old Pontiff's book, a highly philosophical and intricate work on the nature of good and evil, is based on conversations with philosopher friends in 1993 and later with some of his aides.
In one section about the role of lawmakers, the Pope takes another swipe at gay marriages when he refers to "pressures" on the European Parliament to allow them.
"It is legitimate and necessary to ask oneself if this is not perhaps part of a new ideology of evil, perhaps more insidious and hidden, which attempts to pit human rights against the family and against man," he writes.
The Pope's fifth book for mass circulation, issued by Italian publisher Rizzoli, sparked controversy in Germany and elsewhere after Jewish groups protested against leaked excerpts comparing the Holocaust to abortion.
In at least two sections of the book, the Pope talks about the Nazi attempt to exterminate Jews and the wholesale slaughter of political opponents by Communist regimes after World War Two.
'Legal extermination'
In following paragraphs he says that legally elected parliaments in formerly totalitarian countries were today allowing what he called new forms of evil and new exterminations.
"There is still, however a legal extermination of human beings who have been conceived but not yet born," he writes.
"And this time we are talking about an extermination which has been allowed by nothing less than democratically elected parliaments where one normally hears appeals for the civil progress of society and all humanity," he writes.
In Germany, a leader of the country's Central Council of Jews called the comparison unacceptable.
At a news conference presenting the book, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the Vatican's top doctrinal official, dismissed the Jewish charges.
Ratzinger said the Pope "was not trying to put the Holocaust and abortion on the same plane" but only warning that evil lurked everywhere, "even in liberal political systems."
In another section, the Pope describes at length the assassination attempt on May 13, 1981, when Turkish gunman Mehmet Ali Agca shot and nearly killed him in St Peter's Square.
Of Agca, the Pope writes the assassination attempt was "not his initiative, someone else masterminded it and someone else commissioned it."
Two trials in the early 1980s failed to prove prosecutors' suspicions that Bulgaria's secret services had masterminded a plot to kill the Pope on behalf of the Soviet Union.
At the time the Polish Pope was a strong supporter of the Solidarity trade union in his native Poland and the Soviet Union saw Solidarity as a threat to the stability of the communist bloc.
The Pope says the assassination attempt against him was perhaps "the last convulsion" of the ideologies of the 20th century -- a clear reference to the Communist bloc.
Copyright 2005 Reuters. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
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I can agree with him on the abortion issue, but I don't think so on gay marriage.
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Jeff Miller
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 22 Nov 2001
Posts: 23947
Location: Mental Ward for the Mentaly Unstable 6th floor, Saint John's 1615 Delaware Longview Washington 98632
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| Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:06 pm |
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No offense but I don't belieive at all what some old geezard believes about gay marriages, the abortion issue I do though thats just wrong unless there is reasons for it.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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| Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:24 pm |
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I agree with him. But I don't think that legislating this should be based on religious beliefs...
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Kyre
Commodore
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 1263
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| Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:18 pm |
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And the funny part to this story is that there are alot of ministers, to whom a homosexual relationship is anything but 'evil'.
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:22 pm |
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Read the bible and it will tell you being gay is a sin i forgot have people on here don't believe in God  oh but whom am I to judge. LOL
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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| Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:28 pm |
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| Kyre wrote: | | And the funny part to this story is that there are alot of ministers, to whom a homosexual relationship is anything but 'evil'. |
But not in the Catholic church. And it IS evil. But of course, that is my opinion, but nonetheless...
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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IntrepidIsMe
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Joined: 14 Jun 2002
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| Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:37 pm |
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I don't think abortion is right. But, I don't have a problem with gay marriage. A book written over a thousand years ago by people with a 5 year old's education doesn't hold much weight with me. But hey, thats just my opinion.
But yeah, those gosh darned gays, they really know how to rain on everyone else's parade. By minding their own business, simply wanting the same rights as others, and such.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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| Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:13 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | I don't think abortion is right. But, I don't have a problem with gay marriage. A book written over a thousand years ago by people with a 5 year old's education doesn't hold much weight with me. But hey, thats just my opinion.
But yeah, those gosh darned gays, they really know how to rain on everyone else's parade. By minding their own business, simply wanting the same rights as others, and such. |
It is MORE than a "book written over a thousand years ago by people with a 5 year old's education!" What nerve of you to say that! It is a HOLY book for Christians, not some damned "book written over a thousand years ago by people with a 5 year old's education!"
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Kyre
Commodore
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
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| Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:16 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | Kyre wrote: | | And the funny part to this story is that there are alot of ministers, to whom a homosexual relationship is anything but 'evil'. |
But not in the Catholic church. And it IS evil. But of course, that is my opinion, but nonetheless... |
You all worship the same guy, don't you?
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IntrepidIsMe
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Joined: 14 Jun 2002
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| Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:26 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | I don't think abortion is right. But, I don't have a problem with gay marriage. A book written over a thousand years ago by people with a 5 year old's education doesn't hold much weight with me. But hey, thats just my opinion.
But yeah, those gosh darned gays, they really know how to rain on everyone else's parade. By minding their own business, simply wanting the same rights as others, and such. |
It is MORE than a "book written over a thousand years ago by people with a 5 year old's education!" What nerve of you to say that! It is a HOLY book for Christians, not some damned "book written over a thousand years ago by people with a 5 year old's education!" |
It's the truth. It was written over a thousand years ago. And the people who wrote it did have only about the same education as a five year olds. But anyhow, you shouldn't have a problem with that. As, according to Catholics, the authors are "divinely inspired." So, therefore, it wouldn't matter what kind of education they had. But since I don't believe in that, I have to stick to the definite facts.... Which are what I said.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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Location: Classified
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| Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:38 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | I don't think abortion is right. But, I don't have a problem with gay marriage. A book written over a thousand years ago by people with a 5 year old's education doesn't hold much weight with me. But hey, thats just my opinion.
But yeah, those gosh darned gays, they really know how to rain on everyone else's parade. By minding their own business, simply wanting the same rights as others, and such. |
It is MORE than a "book written over a thousand years ago by people with a 5 year old's education!" What nerve of you to say that! It is a HOLY book for Christians, not some damned "book written over a thousand years ago by people with a 5 year old's education!" |
It's the truth. It was written over a thousand years ago. And the people who wrote it did have only about the same education as a five year olds. But anyhow, you shouldn't have a problem with that. As, according to Catholics, the authors are "divinely inspired." So, therefore, it wouldn't matter what kind of education they had. But since I don't believe in that, I have to stick to the definite facts.... Which are what I said. |
But your implication. It was clearly an attack, was it not? I don't believe this would be the first time that you would have attacked Christianity, anyway, though.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:14 pm |
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It's not an uncommon argument, so many people have less faith in the bible because of its age and the people who wrote it. They weren't exactly high scholars, but to a person of faith it wouldn't matter--to one of faith it was God who inspired and essentially wrote the bible through the prophets and disciples. All in how you see it. If I didn't believe the bible was divinely inspired, I might regard it in similar manner.
I also agree with the pope on this one. Dr. Arnold Murray, whom I've spoke of before, did a sermon on this when I went to see him last passover...I was questioning whether or not it was right at the time, but one sermon cleared it up pretty well. Nothing against gays, but the sin itself is evil. Not that gays are, it's that all sin is evil. Making their 'marriages' legal is only compounding that, to me. I'm glad the man is speaking out about it.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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| Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:24 pm |
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| Exalya wrote: | It's not an uncommon argument, so many people have less faith in the bible because of its age and the people who wrote it. They weren't exactly high scholars, but to a person of faith it wouldn't matter--to one of faith it was God who inspired and essentially wrote the bible through the prophets and disciples. All in how you see it. If I didn't believe the bible was divinely inspired, I might regard it in similar manner.
I also agree with the pope on this one. Dr. Arnold Murray, whom I've spoke of before, did a sermon on this when I went to see him last passover...I was questioning whether or not it was right at the time, but one sermon cleared it up pretty well. Nothing against gays, but the sin itself is evil. Not that gays are, it's that all sin is evil. Making their 'marriages' legal is only compounding that, to me. I'm glad the man is speaking out about it. |
Forgive my short answer--I know Defiant will be mad at me for this -- but well said. I agree.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
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Location: New York
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| Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:07 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | I don't think abortion is right. But, I don't have a problem with gay marriage. A book written over a thousand years ago by people with a 5 year old's education doesn't hold much weight with me. But hey, thats just my opinion.
But yeah, those gosh darned gays, they really know how to rain on everyone else's parade. By minding their own business, simply wanting the same rights as others, and such. |
It is MORE than a "book written over a thousand years ago by people with a 5 year old's education!" What nerve of you to say that! It is a HOLY book for Christians, not some damned "book written over a thousand years ago by people with a 5 year old's education!" |
It's the truth. It was written over a thousand years ago. And the people who wrote it did have only about the same education as a five year olds. But anyhow, you shouldn't have a problem with that. As, according to Catholics, the authors are "divinely inspired." So, therefore, it wouldn't matter what kind of education they had. But since I don't believe in that, I have to stick to the definite facts.... Which are what I said. |
But your implication. It was clearly an attack, was it not? I don't believe this would be the first time that you would have attacked Christianity, anyway, though. |
No, it wasn't an attack, it was the truth. And I've never attacked Christianity with lies or falsehoods. I've simply stated facts.
| Exalya wrote: | | but to a person of faith it wouldn't matter--to one of faith it was God who inspired and essentially wrote the bible through the prophets and disciples. |
My point, exactly. I even said that in my previous post. How interesting that you agree with her, Republican_Man, but not with me when we said the same thing. Hehe, guess thats the way it works, though.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:46 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | I don't think abortion is right. But, I don't have a problem with gay marriage. A book written over a thousand years ago by people with a 5 year old's education doesn't hold much weight with me. But hey, thats just my opinion.
But yeah, those gosh darned gays, they really know how to rain on everyone else's parade. By minding their own business, simply wanting the same rights as others, and such. |
It is MORE than a "book written over a thousand years ago by people with a 5 year old's education!" What nerve of you to say that! It is a HOLY book for Christians, not some damned "book written over a thousand years ago by people with a 5 year old's education!" |
It's the truth. It was written over a thousand years ago. And the people who wrote it did have only about the same education as a five year olds. But anyhow, you shouldn't have a problem with that. As, according to Catholics, the authors are "divinely inspired." So, therefore, it wouldn't matter what kind of education they had. But since I don't believe in that, I have to stick to the definite facts.... Which are what I said. |
But your implication. It was clearly an attack, was it not? I don't believe this would be the first time that you would have attacked Christianity, anyway, though. |
No, it wasn't an attack, it was the truth. And I've never attacked Christianity with lies or falsehoods. I've simply stated facts.
| Exalya wrote: | | but to a person of faith it wouldn't matter--to one of faith it was God who inspired and essentially wrote the bible through the prophets and disciples. |
My point, exactly. I even said that in my previous post. How interesting that you agree with her, Republican_Man, but not with me when we said the same thing. Hehe, guess thats the way it works, though. |
I think you had in the past, but I suppose that is irrelivent. The way that you worded this last phrase, however, seemed like an attack. However, if you word it more like Exalya's, it does not. It's a matter of wording, I suppose 
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:55 pm |
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| Jeff Miller wrote: | | No offense but I don't belieive at all what some old geezard believes about gay marriages, the abortion issue I do though thats just wrong unless there is reasons for it. |
"Old geezard"?
| Kyre wrote: | | And the funny part to this story is that there are alot of ministers, to whom a homosexual relationship is anything but 'evil'. |
Oh yes, because of something a few priests did, the entire Religion is now evil. 
| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | I don't think abortion is right. But, I don't have a problem with gay marriage. A book written over a thousand years ago by people with a 5 year old's education doesn't hold much weight with me. But hey, thats just my opinion.
But yeah, those gosh darned gays, they really know how to rain on everyone else's parade. By minding their own business, simply wanting the same rights as others, and such. |
Minding their own business? Yeah, because gays don't make big deals out of stuff. They just sit around in peace and we hunt them to extinction...
| Kyre wrote: | | You all worship the same guy, don't you? |
What? We worship God. What does that have to do with anything?
| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | It's the truth. It was written over a thousand years ago. And the people who wrote it did have only about the same education as a five year olds. But anyhow, you shouldn't have a problem with that. As, according to Catholics, the authors are "divinely inspired." So, therefore, it wouldn't matter what kind of education they had. But since I don't believe in that, I have to stick to the definite facts.... Which are what I said. |
The "definite facts"? You haven't listed one definite fact. All you said was you believe thay had a 5 year olds education. Wow. Those are some pretty hard core facts there.
This is ridiculous. No smart people existed back then? Uh huh..... There were many brilliant people in the past. How old do you think Math and Astronomy are? Just becuase you believe the ancient Christians and Jewish people to be primtive because of their religions doesn't make them primitive.
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
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Location: New York
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| Thu Feb 24, 2005 12:41 am |
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| Founder wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | I don't think abortion is right. But, I don't have a problem with gay marriage. A book written over a thousand years ago by people with a 5 year old's education doesn't hold much weight with me. But hey, thats just my opinion.
But yeah, those gosh darned gays, they really know how to rain on everyone else's parade. By minding their own business, simply wanting the same rights as others, and such. |
Minding their own business? Yeah, because gays don't make big deals out of stuff. They just sit around in peace and we hunt them to extinction... |
I never said people hunt anybody to extinction, and I'm pretty sure you'd make a big deal out of it if you felt your rights were being repressed. I guess that whole civil rights movement in the sixties was totally uncalled for or something?
| Founder wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | It's the truth. It was written over a thousand years ago. And the people who wrote it did have only about the same education as a five year olds. But anyhow, you shouldn't have a problem with that. As, according to Catholics, the authors are "divinely inspired." So, therefore, it wouldn't matter what kind of education they had. But since I don't believe in that, I have to stick to the definite facts.... Which are what I said. |
The "definite facts"? You haven't listed one definite fact. All you said was you believe thay had a 5 year olds education. Wow. Those are some pretty hard core facts there.
This is ridiculous. No smart people existed back then? Uh huh..... There were many brilliant people in the past. How old do you think Math and Astronomy are? Just becuase you believe the ancient Christians and Jewish people to be primtive because of their religions doesn't make them primitive. |
I have listed definite facts. The bible was written over a thousand years ago, and the people back then had no education. I mean, all they knew how to do was what they had to do. Like catch fish.
And I never said that nobody intelligent was around back then. You're awfully good at putting words in other people's mouths. Anywho, just because math and astronomy were around, doesn't mean that everybody knew how to use and apply them, in fact hardly any. I never said anybody was primitive, either. They weren't for their time, and I don't recall saying that their faith made them primitive. Again, nice job twisting words around. I wouldn't say that about anybody's faith.
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lex
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Dec 2004
Posts: 226
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| Thu Feb 24, 2005 1:48 am |
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| Rbgirl wrote: | | Read the bible and it will tell you being gay is a sinL |
Um, Rbgirl, you're out of gas on this one. This is not the case.
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Thu Feb 24, 2005 4:49 am |
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Screw the pope. They should Ban him and make him pay for his sins (i don't want too sound reliegious or anything but thats just the way it is, the Pope is a hoax and whatever he says are lies.).
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Jeff Miller
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Joined: 22 Nov 2001
Posts: 23947
Location: Mental Ward for the Mentaly Unstable 6th floor, Saint John's 1615 Delaware Longview Washington 98632
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| Thu Feb 24, 2005 10:09 am |
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| Founder wrote: | | Jeff Miller wrote: | | No offense but I don't belieive at all what some old geezard believes about gay marriages, the abortion issue I do though thats just wrong unless there is reasons for it. |
"Old geezard"? |
What, did I spell it wrong or something? And the guy is old you want me to sugar coat it? ok hes the most swell guy in the whole universe... *sarcasam*
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Five - seveN
Rear Admiral
Joined: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 3567
Location: Shadow Moon
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| Thu Feb 24, 2005 12:10 pm |
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| lionhead wrote: | | Screw the pope. They should Ban him and make him pay for his sins (i don't want too sound reliegious or anything but thats just the way it is, the Pope is a hoax and whatever he says are lies.). |
This old geezard should indeed shut up. This whole issue is quite ridiculous.
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:11 pm |
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| Five - seveN wrote: | | lionhead wrote: | | Screw the pope. They should Ban him and make him pay for his sins (i don't want too sound reliegious or anything but thats just the way it is, the Pope is a hoax and whatever he says are lies.). |
This old geezard should indeed shut up. This whole issue is quite ridiculous. |
I'm not Catholic, but that is cruel. I do not offend easily, and I find that highly offensive and shameful (This I say to both Five-seveN and lionhead as a whole). The pope is a respected religious leader to the Catholics and he has every right to say what he wants, as any pastor of any church has that right. I challenge you to say that Budha should've shut up or be "screwed." Muhammad. Go ahead, say it. Oh, well...I guess I'm putting my hopes a little high in thinking you wouldn't. Of course. *growls* The pope's a good man, and he does a lot more good for the world than most people, certainly any of us. He doesn't need to shut up if he doesn't want to. No more than any of you or myself should be silent.
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Not the doctor... yet
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
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| Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:21 pm |
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I agree. You all could be a bit more respectful towards a religious leader. Its his right to say whatever he wants. If anybody said anything like that about any of you, you'd probably get upset and want that user to be warned, which they would be.
I'm pretty sure you can all find ways to respecfully disagree.
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"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:29 pm |
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Its appalling the utter ignorance some people have in their posts. All it shows it their closemindedness, hatred, and stupidity. I guess people only have the right to say what they want when they are Left, Aithiest, and Gay. If you don't fall into the category you are to "shut up".
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:48 pm |
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The Pope has the right to say this. As the leader of a faith, he has the means to spread this message, and so he should. Notice how he did not say homosexuals are evil--that would be a discriminatory statement. He said that the act of two homosexuals marrying is evil.
I might not agree with him, but he gets his say. After all he does have the coolest hat of all the religions.
(On that note . . . Friday, March 24, 2000 watch "The Pope's Speech".)
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