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| Total Votes : 9 |
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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 Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:14 am Oh Canada! |
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| Quote: |
Oh Canada!
Friday, February 11, 2005
By John Gibson
On Friday, an editorial in The Toronto Star newspaper headlined, "Try Khadr or Release Him."
The paper is demanding that 18-year-old named Omar Khadr (search) either get a trial for his alleged crimes, or be given his release from Guantanamo Bay (search), where he is being held indefinitely as a terrorist picked up on the field of battle. There is no doubt that a terrorist is precisely what he is.
At age 15 fifteen, Khadr was wounded in a battle in Afghanistan with American troops, in which his Al Qaeda (search) father was killed and his Al Qaeda brother was badly wounded.
Omar Khadr threw a grenade that killed an American medic who was rushing into render first aid as the battle died down and it was obvious the young Khadr was badly wounded.
The Khadr family is Canadian, much to Canada's shame. The Toronto Star refers to the family as despised in Canada. If that's true, it's the first good news out of Canada in years.
The Khadrs have used Canada as a home base for years, while they conducted jihad against Americans and others in Afghanistan. The father was a close associate of Usama bin Laden, in fact the elder Khadr took care of some of bin Laden's financial matters.
The family divided its time between Afghanistan Al Qaeda training camps and Canada where they came home to raise money for Afghan relief, cash that really went into the terror training operations.
There is no doubt the younger Khadr being held by the Americans at Gitmo is terrorist through and through. We would have been perfectly entitled to put a bullet in his head on the field of battle, but American troops saved his life instead and he now is served three squares in Gitmo.
His lawyers say he's been abused at Gitmo: tortured and forced to urinate on himself while shackled. All in all humiliated.
Poor baby. You can throw grenades at Americans, but you can't take tinkling on yourself? Aww. We feel so bad.
Actually, we don't. This is another instance where we're going to have to tell Canada to forget it.
The younger Khadr is the worst of the worst. He belongs right where he is and he deserves to stay there as long as we want.
That's My Word.
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What a moron.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sun Feb 13, 2005 3:05 am |
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No, he's not a moron. He's right. I agree with Gibson. Sorry Tach, Val, but he's really telling the hard truth.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Captain Dappet
Forum Revolutionist
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 16756
Location: On my supersonic rocket ship.
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| Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:36 am |
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Ehm...No? What a load of *beep*. Worst thing I have seen in a very long time.
All in all, Khadr was/is a soldier. Not for a country, but still, a soldier. Why don't we take a couple of American soldiers that have thrown grenades at people and put them in shackles? Same thing.
Al-Qaeda or no, Khadr is a soldier and a POW, and he did what he most probably was ordered to do.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:08 am |
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This guy is indeed a moron. If he can't make a good arguement without using, what I see, as unnecessary bashing of another country, then he doesn't have the intellectual power that I think someone commenting on the news needs.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:59 am |
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Terrorists aren't considered POW's. Never have been, by any country, actually. He wasn't part of the Afghan Army, he is Al Qaeda..
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:48 pm |
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Nobody, no matter what they've done, deserves to be treated inhumanely. I don't care if the bureaucracy labels him a POW or not, unless you can find an unscrupulous scientist who can determine that his genome differs significantly enough to quantify him as a different species, then he is still human, even if he had committed unspeakable acts against other humans.
Human rights apply to all people, regardless of who they are or what they have done. If they aren't universal, then you've undermined the entire concept of equality and rights.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:38 pm |
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Take it up with the Geneva convention. I don't think anyone said it was fair to treat him inhumanely, only that they wouldn't be crying for him over it.
The only point I was trying to make that being a part of a terrorist organization doesn't make you a solidier. If it did, we'd be allowed to let all those redneck militia's loose on the rest of the world.
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sun Feb 13, 2005 3:49 pm |
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| Captain Dappet wrote: | Ehm...No? What a load of *beep*. Worst thing I have seen in a very long time.
All in all, Khadr was/is a soldier. Not for a country, but still, a soldier. Why don't we take a couple of American soldiers that have thrown grenades at people and put them in shackles? Same thing.
Al-Qaeda or no, Khadr is a soldier and a POW, and he did what he most probably was ordered to do. |
A soldier! A soldier! My communist friend, a terrorist is NOT a soldier.
| JanewayIsHott wrote: | | This guy is indeed a moron. If he can't make a good arguement without using, what I see, as unnecessary bashing of another country, then he doesn't have the intellectual power that I think someone commenting on the news needs. |
You really have to watch his program and read his "My Word's" more often. He has every right to say things like this, if you see his other things, which list out the way he feels about France and Canada.
| Theresa wrote: | | Terrorists aren't considered POW's. Never have been, by any country, actually. He wasn't part of the Afghan Army, he is Al Qaeda.. |
Exactly.
| Hitchhiker wrote: | Nobody, no matter what they've done, deserves to be treated inhumanely. I don't care if the bureaucracy labels him a POW or not, unless you can find an unscrupulous scientist who can determine that his genome differs significantly enough to quantify him as a different species, then he is still human, even if he had committed unspeakable acts against other humans.
Human rights apply to all people, regardless of who they are or what they have done. If they aren't universal, then you've undermined the entire concept of equality and rights. |
But to a certain extent, harsher punishment can apply to terrorists--especially since they did not sign, nor are in, the Geneva Convention.
| Theresa wrote: | | The only point I was trying to make that being a part of a terrorist organization doesn't make you a solidier. If it did, we'd be allowed to let all those redneck militia's loose on the rest of the world. |
Exactly.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:32 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | But to a certain extent, harsher punishment can apply to terrorists--especially since they did not sign, nor are in, the Geneva Convention. |
No . . . the Geneva Convention is just a document, and even if it does not apply to them, the spirit in which is stands should.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:16 pm |
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| Hitchhiker wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | But to a certain extent, harsher punishment can apply to terrorists--especially since they did not sign, nor are in, the Geneva Convention. |
No . . . the Geneva Convention is just a document, and even if it does not apply to them, the spirit in which is stands should. |
However, there is a certain extent to terrorists to which harsher punishments then POWs can be given. We should not go torturing them, by any means, but nonetheless...
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:48 pm |
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| Quote: | | You really have to watch his program and read his "My Word's" more often. He has every right to say things like this, if you see his other things, which list out the way he feels about France and Canada. |
Tsss. I have seen his show, and he is just as bad. We complain about anti-American sentiment, but then we have people bashing France and Canada off the wall like this. And Canada, what did they ever do to us?
Let's turn these around and pretend it was a Canadian paper righting this about the US.
| Quote: | The Lindh family is American, much to America's shame. The Dallas Morning News refers to the family as despised in America. If that's true, it's the first good news out of America in years, especially since the reelection of Bush. We are pleased to say that collectively, their thinking has progressed even if it is a minimal progression.
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Tsss, this just irks me.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sun Feb 13, 2005 9:38 pm |
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I just watched the My Word, to get a better understanding. Here's what he's saying:
- This Omar Khadr character is a TERRORIST in Gitmo, captured after killing an American medic.
- For the first time, it seems, since 9/11 (a long time) someone in Canada is condemning the actions of terrorists, which, at least to him, has not happened.
- His family is from Canada, which is to the country's shame (why wouldn't it be?)
- Khadrs used Canada as a home base while conducting Jihad--what's NOT wrong with that?--and yet they weren't punished, etc, in any way.
- The Khadr family has been greatly involved with bin Laden.
- They RAISED MONEY, etc. in Canada for terrorists!
- You can kill Americans as a terrorist but can't take any of this? "Oh boopi."
- Canada, like France, constantly states its opposition to what the US is doing, and capturing terrorists and stuff, and yet does not state much opposition to the terrorists in Iraq.
That's what he was saying, yes it's somewhat radical, but he's right, and I agree with him 98%!
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Sun Feb 13, 2005 9:57 pm |
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It doesn't matter what Khadr has done. Yes, if he has done wrong he should be put on trial, sentenced, and punished--with a fair punishment. We are--or at least should be--above the level of terrorists. One should not have to justify interrogative actions by saying that the prisoner is a terrorist, even terrorists are human. By lowering ourselves to their level, all we do is undermine the very principles we try to defend.
Canada talks a lot about terrorists . . . but compared to the U.S., we don't talk about them that much. No one wants to bomb Canada, Canada doesn't matter . . . we're a mediocre country with a reasonable quality of life. I know, I know . . . one day someone will set up us the bomb, and then all our base will belong to them. 
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:26 pm |
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Terrorists kill innocents. Thats bad, but tolerated.
America holds a known terrorist in prison. We're barbarians.
Ok got'cha.  
BTW that comment wasn't just directed at Canada. Many countries believe this. Sadly...
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Curtis
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 29 Sep 2001
Posts: 14903
Location: Wisconsin
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| Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:38 pm |
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| Captain Dappet wrote: | Ehm...No? What a load of *beep*. Worst thing I have seen in a very long time.
All in all, Khadr was/is a soldier. Not for a country, but still, a soldier. Why don't we take a couple of American soldiers that have thrown grenades at people and put them in shackles? Same thing.
Al-Qaeda or no, Khadr is a soldier and a POW, and he did what he most probably was ordered to do. |
I agree. It's like you said, if thats the case they are making...then all our American soldiers that have thrown grenades at peeps should be placed in shackles as well.
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:40 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | Terrorists kill innocents. Thats bad, but tolerated.
America holds a known terrorist in prison. We're barbarians. |
No, terrorism should not be tolerated. But just because someone is a terrorist does not mean we should sacrifice the principles in which we claim to believe.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:47 pm |
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| Hitchhiker wrote: | | Founder wrote: | Terrorists kill innocents. Thats bad, but tolerated.
America holds a known terrorist in prison. We're barbarians. |
No, terrorism should not be tolerated. But just because someone is a terrorist does not mean we should sacrifice the principles in which we claim to believe. |
I agree completely. We definitly have crossed the line in some aspects of the prison system, but my point is that people only want to focus on that. Rarely do I hear of other nations condeming the terrorists acts. Instead we get "Americans kill innocents. They(terrorists) are just freedom fighters, that happen to murder innocent people along the way."
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:02 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | Terrorists kill innocents. Thats bad, but tolerated.
America holds a known terrorist in prison. We're barbarians.
Ok got'cha.
BTW that comment wasn't just directed at Canada. Many countries believe this. Sadly... |
EXACTLY! That's pretty much his point.
| Founder wrote: | | Hitchhiker wrote: | | Founder wrote: | Terrorists kill innocents. Thats bad, but tolerated.
America holds a known terrorist in prison. We're barbarians. |
No, terrorism should not be tolerated. But just because someone is a terrorist does not mean we should sacrifice the principles in which we claim to believe. |
I agree completely. We definitly have crossed the line in some aspects of the prison system, but my point is that people only want to focus on that. Rarely do I hear of other nations condeming the terrorists acts. Instead we get "Americans kill innocents. They(terrorists) are just freedom fighters, that happen to murder innocent people along the way." |
I agree. In many of the allegation instances, the prison guards go too far. But in others, what the terrorists do qualifies as sufficient justification.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Elladan
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 300
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| Mon Feb 14, 2005 10:59 am |
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Summarising, there are two flawed reasonings going on in this thread:
Terrorist =/= Soldier
Soldier => Geneva applied
no Soldier => No Geneva
Terrorist => No Geneva.
Canada =/likes/= US policy
France =/likes/= US policy
Canada = France
Torture = not tolerated by Geneva
Terrorist => no Geneva
Terrorist => Torture.
I believe everyone has to pay for the crimes committed.
Nevertheless history is decided by the victor, and I do not disagree with that. To win means to be superior, to be superior gives you the right and the responsibility to take on every inhuman action taken against freedom.
Terrorists do inhuman things, therefore they deserve inhuman treatment.
Logical, isn't it? (I am just asking.)
Desperate times deserve desperate measures. Against Anyone. Even You, or Me.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Feb 14, 2005 5:48 pm |
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| Elladan wrote: | Summarising, there are two flawed reasonings going on in this thread:
Terrorist =/= Soldier
Soldier => Geneva applied
no Soldier => No Geneva
Terrorist => No Geneva.
Canada =/likes/= US policy
France =/likes/= US policy
Canada = France
Torture = not tolerated by Geneva
Terrorist => no Geneva
Terrorist => Torture.
I believe everyone has to pay for the crimes committed.
Nevertheless history is decided by the victor, and I do not disagree with that. To win means to be superior, to be superior gives you the right and the responsibility to take on every inhuman action taken against freedom.
Terrorists do inhuman things, therefore they deserve inhuman treatment.
Logical, isn't it? (I am just asking.)
Desperate times deserve desperate measures. Against Anyone. Even You, or Me. |
Wow, those are good points! I pretty much agree, but I don't know if terrorists deserve torture, per say...
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:08 pm |
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No . . . treating anyone inhumanely is a betrayal of every principle, notably our human rights.
The point is that if you retaliate on the terrorist's level, then you are no better than the terrorist, and therefore who are you to judge them? The ends never justify the means, and sacrificing your principles to win is no victory at all.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:10 pm |
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| Hitchhiker wrote: | No . . . treating anyone inhumanely is a betrayal of every principle, notably our human rights.
The point is that if you retaliate on the terrorist's level, then you are no better than the terrorist, and therefore who are you to judge them? The ends never justify the means, and sacrificing your principles to win is no victory at all. |
I somewhat agree with you, however there IS a certain extent that we MUST go to save lives--to get stuff out of the terrorists.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:50 pm |
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I don't see the point of the article at all, really. What's it matter if he or his family is from Canada? We all know about the problems in the prison camps, and I agree with the editorial. Either try him, or release him. Its not fair to keep anybody in limbo.
And, he can't be called a terrorist (officially) without a trial to validate it, anyway. The author of the article makes it sound like that isn't the case.
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"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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