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MJ
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 266
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 Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:42 am U.S.: Justifying Abuse of Detainees |
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| Quote: | (New York, January 25, 2005) � The Bush administration contends that no law prevents the Central Intelligence Agency from engaging in inhumane treatment of detainees abroad, Human Rights Watch said today.
In responses to U.S. Senate inquiries, White House Counsel and Attorney General-nominee Alberto Gonzales claimed that the prohibition on cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment�enshrined in a treaty the United States ratified in 1994�does not apply to U.S. personnel in the treatment of non-citizens abroad. While asserting that torture by all U.S. personnel was unlawful, Gonzales indicated that no law would prohibit the CIA from engaging in cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment when it interrogates non-Americans outside the United States. The interpretation would permit the CIA to commit in secret detention facilities abroad many of the shocking forms of abuse that took place at Abu Ghraib.
�The Bush administration claims it rejects torture and inhumane treatment, but it continues to seek legal loopholes to permit abuse by U.S. interrogators,� said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. �This latest example of legal gymnastics shows once more that abuses by U.S. interrogators are the result of policy choices made at senior levels.�
Much of the Bush administration�s efforts to avoid legal restraints on its treatment of detainees have focused on the Geneva Conventions. But the administration has also had to contend with the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (CAT), which prohibits torture and other mistreatment of any person, regardless of whether they are covered by the Geneva Conventions. Faced with the CAT�s prohibition on torture, the administration redefined torture virtually out of existence�a position from which it has now retreated. But prior to Gonzales�s written responses to senators reviewing his nomination to be attorney general, the Bush administration had never asserted that the prohibition on cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment did not apply to U.S. actions abroad.
When the U.S. Senate gave its advice and consent to ratification of the Convention Against Torture in 1994, it included a reservation under which the United States defined the prohibited �cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment� to mean the ill-treatment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth or Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution.
The U.S. reservation was intended to clarify the kinds of conduct that would be prohibited. Yet Gonzales contends that the reservation also limits the geographic reach of the treaty. He asserts that because the Constitution does not apply to non-U.S. citizens outside the United States, neither does the Convention Against Torture�s prohibition on ill-treatment. This interpretation would mean that U.S. officials interrogating or detaining non-U.S. citizens abroad would be free to engage in cruel and inhuman treatment short of torture without violating the CAT.
This interpretation is as unprecedented as it is implausible: the treaty unambiguously calls on governments to stamp out torture and ill-treatment to the fullest extent of their authority. This clearly covers acts by U.S. agents anywhere in the world.
�The prohibition of torture and inhumane treatment is absolute,� said Roth. �It should never be read to legitimize the outsourcing of abuse to U.S. interrogators overseas.�
The CIA is believed to hold a number of detainees in multiple secret locations around the world. The U.S. government has denied these detainees access to international monitors such as the International Committee of the Red Cross. Human Rights Watch issued a 46-page report last October on the CIA detainees entitled �The United States� �Disappeared�: The CIA�s Long-Term �Ghost Detainees.� |
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/01/25/usint10072.htm
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Fri Jan 28, 2005 5:27 pm |
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Again, HRW is an organization that I don't trust too much. Read more in your other HRW topic. However, some more *extreme* treatment is often necessary to save lives 
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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MJ
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 266
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| Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:41 am |
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When they're locked up already? 
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Sat Jan 29, 2005 10:13 am |
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Yeah, "when they're locked up already", they could give up useful information on a next target. It's happened before.
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Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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MJ
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 266
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| Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:30 am |
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Give me an example, but I can't imagine someone who has been locked up for the longest time having to say anything useful anymore. Besides, isn't it morally wrong to do to others what they want to do with you? 
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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| Sat Jan 29, 2005 12:00 pm |
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| MJ wrote: | | Give me an example, but I can't imagine someone who has been locked up for the longest time having to say anything useful anymore. Besides, isn't it morally wrong to do to others what they want to do with you? |
We don't kill innocents. We don't cut off their heads. That's what they want to do to us. Sometimes desperate times DO call for desperate measures.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:56 pm |
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You people have been watching too much "24,"
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"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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| Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:29 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | You people have been watching too much "24," |
Never heard of it.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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MJ
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 266
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| Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:35 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | MJ wrote: | | Give me an example, but I can't imagine someone who has been locked up for the longest time having to say anything useful anymore. Besides, isn't it morally wrong to do to others what they want to do with you? |
We don't kill innocents. We don't cut off their heads. That's what they want to do to us. Sometimes desperate times DO call for desperate measures. |
So you draw the line for what's moral or not at murder? Or what's decent at what maniacs don't do? Stick to your own values I say and don't throw them overboard at every bump in the road.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:38 pm |
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| MJ wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | MJ wrote: | | Give me an example, but I can't imagine someone who has been locked up for the longest time having to say anything useful anymore. Besides, isn't it morally wrong to do to others what they want to do with you? |
We don't kill innocents. We don't cut off their heads. That's what they want to do to us. Sometimes desperate times DO call for desperate measures. |
So you draw the line for what's moral or not at murder? Or what's decent at what maniacs don't do? Stick to your own values I say and don't throw them overboard at every bump in the road. |
There are certain steps that can be taken to save lives, and should be taken if necessary. Not torture, but harsher punishment if necessary.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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MJ
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 266
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| Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:43 pm |
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Harsher, like? Examples please.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
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| Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:44 pm |
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| MJ wrote: | | Harsher, like? Examples please. |
I don't know, loud music, in a room on their own for a few days, a bunch of things. Can't think of them off of the top of my head, though.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:46 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | You people have been watching too much "24," |
Never heard of it. |
Like where the guy shoots people who might be terrorists in the leg to get information out of them, 
(it's a TV show on Fox, not sure if you were being sarcastic or not... hmmmmm)
Last edited by IntrepidIsMe on Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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MJ
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 266
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| Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:47 pm |
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But how do you connect playing loud music and such things to saving lives?
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:48 pm |
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| MJ wrote: | | But how do you connect playing loud music and such things to saving lives? |
It would get them to talk. That's the point. Getting them to talk.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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MJ
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 266
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| Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:49 pm |
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Well, what are you expecting to get out of them?
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
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| Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:50 pm |
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| MJ wrote: | | Well, what are you expecting to get out of them? |
Information, obviously. Terrorist locations, plans, etc. The OBVIOUS. How could you not see what we would want to get from them?
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:50 pm |
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Well an example of the line between acceptable harsh punishment, and cruel and unusual:
Acceptable Harsh Punishment - forcing them to watch CBC.
Cruel and unusual - forcing them to watch Canadian Tire commercials.
I think that's pretty clear . . . 
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MJ
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 266
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| Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:54 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | MJ wrote: | | Well, what are you expecting to get out of them? |
Information, obviously. Terrorist locations, plans, etc. The OBVIOUS. How could you not see what we would want to get from them? |
Well, how valid are those after three years or another reasonable long period? I don't think it's realistic to say that they actually have a whole year of attacks planned out on a calender... And terrorists aren't gonna stay in the same location forever either.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
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| Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:57 pm |
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| MJ wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | MJ wrote: | | Well, what are you expecting to get out of them? |
Information, obviously. Terrorist locations, plans, etc. The OBVIOUS. How could you not see what we would want to get from them? |
Well, how valid are those after three years or another reasonable long period? I don't think it's realistic to say that they actually have a whole year of attacks planned out on a calender... And terrorists aren't gonna stay in the same location forever either. |
I know, those are good points. However, we can NOT allow these people to go back on the streets.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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MJ
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Posts: 266
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| Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:59 pm |
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Oh, I agree with that. But torture and such, seems a little unjustified, don't know if you can justify it in any situation, to me. I'm not saying they should be released.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
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| Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:59 pm |
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| MJ wrote: | | Oh, I agree with that. But torture and such, seems a little unjustified, don't know if you can justify it in any situation, to me. I'm not saying they should be released. |
Yeah.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
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| Sat Jan 29, 2005 10:00 pm |
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Now, I just have to say that what you are seeing in the news from supposed US people is NOTHING compared to Saddam's regime. For instance, you know the infamous Abu Grahaib prison?
There Saddam's henchmen did the following to its prisoners:
-Stabbed them on a daily basis
-Electrecuted them
-Threw them on the floor and kicked them
-As they moved them from place to place, they would hit the heads of the prisoners
-Whipped them
-Cut off tongues, etc.
You want to compare this stuff to the Gitmo accusations? They don't even come close.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:20 pm |
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Tsss, this isn't a compare and contrast. We are not comparing how bad the US is compared to the former Iraqi government. I don't care what the Iraqi government did, none of that makes allowing our people to use inhuman or degrading treatment when it interrogates non-Americans outside the United States ok, nor does it make it not as bad. It needs to be condemned, and discontinued. It especially doesn't need people going, well, in comparison, it really isn't all that bad what the US may have done, or may be doing.
Last edited by Puck on Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
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| Sat Jan 29, 2005 11:36 pm |
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| JanewayIsHott wrote: | | Tsss, this isn't a compare and contrast. We are not comparing how bad the US is compared to the former Iraqi government. I don't care what the Iraqi government did, none of that makes allowing our people to use inhuman or degrading treatment when it interrogates non-Americans outside the United States ok, nor does it make it not as bad. It needs to be condemned, and discontinued. It especially doesn't need people going, well, in comparison, it really isn't all that bad what the US may have done, or may be doing. |
That's not what I mean. My point is that at least we aren't doing the kind of stuff that Saddam did, that's all.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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