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Republican_Man
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PostTue Jan 04, 2005 6:59 pm    

Founder wrote:
Excellant find RM. Agreed 100%. Don't show anyone who opposes the war that. They will simply said its made up. They will never accept the truth. Reasons why I feared John Kerry for President.


Agreed, on all fronts.
Yes, but I've seen FOOTAGE of beatings, etc (including tongue-cuttings and being thrown off of buildings from the only news station that will actually show such a thing, FOX (although it is greatly edited for TV) and HEARED 1st HAND ACCOUNTS!



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Jeremy
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PostTue Jan 04, 2005 7:49 pm    

Ok, just to make sure I don't condon people being under dictatorship! Especially when they do stuff like torture people. I hate it. I just said in the context of creating more terrorists. I think it should depend on the situation before going into a country. Is it for the good of mankind ie will more people die or suffer from the result of a war and the terrorism it creates than leaving a dictator in power?

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Hitchhiker
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PostTue Jan 04, 2005 8:37 pm    

Republican_Man wrote:
"Violence and bloodshed can never have morally good results."

Is there a disclaimer tacked onto the end of that, some sort of footnote that reads something along the lines of, "Except when deposing a government structure we find incompatible with our goals?" Or is this one of those 'lesser of the two evils' things?

I do not disagree with the apparent ends of the U.S. war on terrorism nor their attempts to destabilize the grip of dictatorships throughout the world, I just disagree with the means.


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Republican_Man
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PostTue Jan 04, 2005 8:39 pm    

Hitchhiker wrote:
Republican_Man wrote:
"Violence and bloodshed can never have morally good results."

Is there a disclaimer tacked onto the end of that, some sort of footnote that reads something along the lines of, "Except when deposing a government structure we find incompatible with our goals?" Or is this one of those 'lesser of the two evils' things?

I do not disagree with the apparent ends of the U.S. war on terrorism nor their attempts to destabilize the grip of dictatorships throughout the world, I just disagree with the means.


No, there was no disclaimer. That was the topic. We had to write about that. (And btw, there were NO OTHER MEANS to get rid of this dicator)



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Founder
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PostTue Jan 04, 2005 8:40 pm    

Thats something I'll never understand. People keep saying that. You don't like the means? What other means are ther to disposing a dictator? Not talking......

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Republican_Man
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PostTue Jan 04, 2005 8:41 pm    

Founder wrote:
Thats something I'll never understand. People keep saying that. You don't like the means? What other means are ther to disposing a dictator? Not talking......


Diplomacy wasn't working and the Sanctions were on the verge of collapse. The Dulfer report (you know, the one that said that there were no WMDs) confirms that. (Hint: Oil for Food)



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Hitchhiker
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PostTue Jan 04, 2005 8:45 pm    

There is assassination, as Jeremy pointed out. It is terribly inefficient because you aren't around to stabilize the aftermath, as Founder pointed out. I find it distasteful, but in this situation it is superior when it comes to the amount of life lost . . .

You could wait for the dictatorship to collapse on its own. Ultimately the net amount of lives lost up until the collapse and during the aftermath of the collapse would probably be less than any wide-scale invasion and rebuilding effort, although I'm not sure on that one.

I'm irrationally opposed to any widespread military assault, even though I admit that there is not much I can think of that will depose a dictator, I still don't think the cost (economic, ethical, and political) is worth the deposition of the dictator.


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Republican_Man
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PostTue Jan 04, 2005 8:49 pm    

Sure, sure, we'll wait 20 more years for his regime to fall, ESPECIALLY when it was considered a grave threat to our national security. And don't say, "We don't know that." because we couldn't take that chance, either way. Bush Sr. DID fail in not keeping this man prisoner, and setting him free.


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Link, the Hero of Time
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PostTue Jan 11, 2005 11:54 pm    

Republican_Man wrote:
No, there was no disclaimer. That was the topic. We had to write about that. (And btw, there were NO OTHER MEANS to get rid of this dicator)


Are you ABSOLUTLEY sure of that? was there truely no other means besides a full scale invasion?

There's always training rebels to create a Coup de'tat. You know, the same thing we did when we put Saddam into power.

There's also always assassination attempts.

There were Hundreds of other ways to deal with it.


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Founder
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PostWed Jan 12, 2005 12:06 am    

Link, the Hero of Time wrote:
Republican_Man wrote:
No, there was no disclaimer. That was the topic. We had to write about that. (And btw, there were NO OTHER MEANS to get rid of this dicator)


Are you ABSOLUTLEY sure of that? was there truely no other means besides a full scale invasion?

There's always training rebels to create a Coup de'tat. You know, the same thing we did when we put Saddam into power.

There's also always assassination attempts.

There were Hundreds of other ways to deal with it.


Nope. Assinations attempts seldom work. Fidel Castro would be dead if they dead. If we trained more rebels than all that it would do is replace Saddam with another bad guy and Dem would bitch about it. There was no other way.


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LightningBoy
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PostWed Jan 12, 2005 12:37 am    

What is with this?

I mean seroiously, has the left lost its mind? Imperialist? We brought them out of the Hussein Regime, with reslatively little government control. We're opening voting, and we're assisting polling.

That FACT shows it is not imperialistic, for it CANNOT be with the presence of a democratic VOTE!

I state fact. A rose is a rose is a rose, if you beleive it is a tulip, I cannot argue with you.


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Republican_Man
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PostWed Jan 12, 2005 1:12 am    

LightningBoy wrote:
What is with this?

I mean seroiously, has the left lost its mind? Imperialist? We brought them out of the Hussein Regime, with reslatively little government control. We're opening voting, and we're assisting polling.

That FACT shows it is not imperialistic, for it CANNOT be with the presence of a democratic VOTE!

I state fact. A rose is a rose is a rose, if you beleive it is a tulip, I cannot argue with you.


EXACTLY. See, LightningBoy is one of the smartest people on here



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Defiant
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PostWed Jan 12, 2005 8:56 pm    

No, hes an absolute idiot. He doesnt research what he says, and he doesnt know much about anything.

The Iraqis did not want to be brought out of the Hussein regime. Since when did anyone ask to have the US come over and take over their country?

And have you seen our voting system lately? The electoral college works, but has so many errors its not even funny. Hardly a good democratic system.


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Founder
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PostWed Jan 12, 2005 10:50 pm    

Defiant wrote:
No, hes an absolute idiot. He doesnt research what he says, and he doesnt know much about anything.

The Iraqis did not want to be brought out of the Hussein regime. Since when did anyone ask to have the US come over and take over their country?

And have you seen our voting system lately? The electoral college works, but has so many errors its not even funny. Hardly a good democratic system.


What a dumb thing to say. When your leader kills you in mass groups, puts you in torture chambers, puts you in rape rooms, and more you'll tend to want help.

What were they supposed to do? Call 9-11? They couldn't send a letter of help cause anyone who did would be killed.


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Republican_Man
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PostWed Jan 12, 2005 11:08 pm    

Founder wrote:
Defiant wrote:
No, hes an absolute idiot. He doesnt research what he says, and he doesnt know much about anything.

The Iraqis did not want to be brought out of the Hussein regime. Since when did anyone ask to have the US come over and take over their country?

And have you seen our voting system lately? The electoral college works, but has so many errors its not even funny. Hardly a good democratic system.


What a dumb thing to say. When your leader kills you in mass groups, puts you in torture chambers, puts you in rape rooms, and more you'll tend to want help.

What were they supposed to do? Call 9-11? They couldn't send a letter of help cause anyone who did would be killed.


EXACTLY.
Let me list out some things:
1. Attempted genocide of one group (Iraqi Kurds)
2. Used WMDs in the past ON HIS OWN PEOPLE.
3. Torture chambers.
A) Parents and their kids were tortured infront of each other
B) Tongues were cut off
C) People were thrown off of buildings
D) Saddam had child prisons where kids were beaten and raped
E) There were plastic body shredders that shredded adults and children alike
F) If Saddam killed off your family member and you were caught talking about that person, you would be killed.
4. Rape rooms
A) Women were put into chambers and raped
B) So were young girls

Need I go on with this? The Iraqi people are HAPPY that they are freed (for the VAST majority), and either way, how could they have asked us? "Hey, US, come free us."
Saddam replies, "Death to you," and attempts genocide again.



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LightningBoy
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PostWed Jan 12, 2005 11:40 pm    

Defiant wrote:
No, hes an absolute idiot. He doesnt research what he says, and he doesnt know much about anything.

The Iraqis did not want to be brought out of the Hussein regime. Since when did anyone ask to have the US come over and take over their country?

And have you seen our voting system lately? The electoral college works, but has so many errors its not even funny. Hardly a good democratic system.


Typical from a Liberal, can't argue therefore makes personal attacks.

A comment like this just shows how far LEFT the LEFT has gone. Unbeleivable...

Everyone take what you want from it, you either know what I mean, or you're with.... them. Fact is, you can't even legitimately use the term "takeover" with a vote happening, its a factual contradiction! It's asinine, it's ridiculous. People like you want to see the US fail, you want to see our good men die just because it advances you own asinine opinions.

Get real. Please


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Republican_Man
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PostWed Jan 12, 2005 11:44 pm    

LightningBoy wrote:
Defiant wrote:
No, hes an absolute idiot. He doesnt research what he says, and he doesnt know much about anything.

The Iraqis did not want to be brought out of the Hussein regime. Since when did anyone ask to have the US come over and take over their country?

And have you seen our voting system lately? The electoral college works, but has so many errors its not even funny. Hardly a good democratic system.


Typical from a Liberal, can't argue therefore makes personal attacks.

A comment like this just shows how far LEFT the LEFT has gone. Unbeleivable...

Everyone take what you want from it, you either know what I mean, or you're with.... them. Fact is, you can't even legitimately use the term "takeover" with a vote happening, its a factual contradiction! It's asinine, it's ridiculous. People like you want to see the US fail, you want to see our good men die just because it advances you own asinine opinions.

Get real. Please


LightningBoy. When you argue, you strike like Lightning. With the truth! Seriously, right on!



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Defiant
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PostWed Jan 19, 2005 10:06 pm    

Quote:
When posting, referring to any country, you will treat each other with respect. Laughing at America because thousands of innocent civilians were killed is just sad, and will not be tolerated. The British got their asses kicked here in the USA, should I mock them? And before we go there, I am not of British decent, so the argument that they and we are the same holds no water. Switzerland remains nuetral in nearly every war on the face of the earth, should they be called cowards? I beleive you are getting the point. NOTHING of that nature will be tolerated. Feel free to post in here and let me know you understand.


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Republican_Man
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PostWed Jan 26, 2005 6:03 pm    

I'm baaaaack!

Defiant wrote:
Quote:
When posting, referring to any country, you will treat each other with respect. Laughing at America because thousands of innocent civilians were killed is just sad, and will not be tolerated. The British got their asses kicked here in the USA, should I mock them? And before we go there, I am not of British decent, so the argument that they and we are the same holds no water. Switzerland remains nuetral in nearly every war on the face of the earth, should they be called cowards? I beleive you are getting the point. NOTHING of that nature will be tolerated. Feel free to post in here and let me know you understand.


How does this apply to this?



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