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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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 Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:01 pm |
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Public and governement is two different things HH.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:04 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | Public and governement is two different things HH. |
Not completely. I think I very much agree with Tach on this one. Although racism still ran high, the people lobbied moreso against racism, and technically in a democracy the people rule. Usually what the people wish is often chosen by the government, although in a Representative Democracy/Republic, the government is also different, so it could work both ways.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:07 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | Public and governement is two different things HH. |
Not completely. I think I very much agree with Tach on this one. Although racism still ran high, the people lobbied moreso against racism, and technically in a democracy the people rule. Usually what the people wish is often chosen by the government, although in a Representative Democracy/Republic, the government is also different, so it could work both ways. |
Indeed. The public opinion may not have been favourable toward the black people, but they did not condone entire acts of . . . well, genocide, against the black people.
Problem: The U.S. and other powers in the world seek to institute freedoms and democracy in the Middle East. However, there is one key element missing from their democracy: the people. Where are the people? Being recruited by terrorists.
Solution: Show the people (the rational ones) that working alongside the U.S. is a better alternative to joining terrorists against the U.S.
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Pah-Wraith
Sheikh
Joined: 30 Nov 2001
Posts: 6012
Location: Londonistan.
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:09 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | Pah-Wraith wrote: | Just like to point out America is not so free from Religious Fanatics, if you refer to a lot of Bush's speeches they speak from the perspective that America is God's Chosen Nation, and that the rest of the world does not understand God's plans with the exception of America and their followers.
So RM looks like the Fanaticism comes from your Saviour Nation too eh?
Secondly, you speak of the majority of the "Middle-Easterners" (also referred to as Semitics, Berber and Hamitics) as wanting Freedom brought by the US, but Statistics show that an overwhelming Majority do actually support Modern Theocracies rather than Western Based Democracies. |
Uh, no. Sure, Bush invokes God, but he is NOTHING like those Fanatics, killing in the name of God, etc. And Bush does not act like this is "God's chosen nation"
And also, I've heard about an extremely LARGE chunk, if not a majority, of Iranians truly DO want Democracy, but the government won't allow it. |
Iranians once overthrew your Nation's installed "Shah" and supported Grand "Ayatollah" Khomeini in the 1970's-1980s during the Iranian Revolution, they supported Modern Theocracy, which would not have been achieved without the overwhelming support of the Iranian population.
Secondly I do believe your Nation has killed in the name of God, there has been one Particular General who when fighting in Iraq publicly stated that Satan was worshipped in Mosques and that it was a War between God and Evil.
| Quote: | | "I knew my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol." |
- Lt Gen Boykin. (A Leading Veteran of Top Secret Delta Force)
| Quote: | | "This work continues. This story goes on. And an angel still rides in the whirlwind and directs this storm." |
-Quote by Bush, on Campaign against Terror.
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Kyre
Commodore
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 1263
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:10 pm |
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Democracy isn't about giving the public what they want, it's about giving them the right to say what they want without threat of persecution. Otherwise there'd be no point in elected leaders.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:12 pm |
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| Pah-Wraith wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | Pah-Wraith wrote: | Just like to point out America is not so free from Religious Fanatics, if you refer to a lot of Bush's speeches they speak from the perspective that America is God's Chosen Nation, and that the rest of the world does not understand God's plans with the exception of America and their followers.
So RM looks like the Fanaticism comes from your Saviour Nation too eh?
Secondly, you speak of the majority of the "Middle-Easterners" (also referred to as Semitics, Berber and Hamitics) as wanting Freedom brought by the US, but Statistics show that an overwhelming Majority do actually support Modern Theocracies rather than Western Based Democracies. |
Uh, no. Sure, Bush invokes God, but he is NOTHING like those Fanatics, killing in the name of God, etc. And Bush does not act like this is "God's chosen nation"
And also, I've heard about an extremely LARGE chunk, if not a majority, of Iranians truly DO want Democracy, but the government won't allow it. |
Iranians once overthrew your Nation's installed "Shah" and supported Grand "Ayatollah" Khomeini in the 1970's-1980s during the Iranian Revolution, they supported Modern Theocracy, which would not have been achieved without the overwhelming support of the Iranian population.
Secondly I do believe your Nation has killed in the name of God, there has been one Particular General who when fighting in Iraq publicly stated that Satan was worshipped in Mosques and that it was a War between God and Evil.
| Quote: | | "I knew my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol." |
- Lt Gen Boykin. (A Leading Veteran of Top Secret Delta Force)
| Quote: | | "This work continues. This story goes on. And an angel still rides in the whirlwind and directs this storm." |
-Quote by Bush, on Campaign against Terror. |
Alright, alright, maybe my facts were wrong about Iran.
But here, I do NOT believe that the war is overwhelmingly being lead by "fanatics," because that's just not true. Where the hell did we go to war for religion? NO WHERE.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Pah-Wraith
Sheikh
Joined: 30 Nov 2001
Posts: 6012
Location: Londonistan.
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:16 pm |
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| Quote: | | "We are going on a CRUSADE" |
George W Bush- September 2001.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:18 pm |
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What point are you trying to prove Pah?
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Kyre
Commodore
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 1263
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:18 pm |
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| Pah-Wraith wrote: | | Quote: | | "We are going on a CRUSADE" |
George W Bush- September 2001. |
Crusade
1. Any of the military expeditions undertaken by European Christians in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries to recover the Holy Land from the Muslims.
2. A holy war undertaken with papal sanction.
3. A vigorous concerted movement for a cause or against an abuse.
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:19 pm |
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::puts on his target sign::
All right, time for another parallel. Let's compare the neo-imperialistic expansion of the U.S. into the Middle East with the imperialistic expansion of European colonists into North America.
The Europeans encountered Aboriginals in North America.
The U.S. encountered Iraqis in Iraq.
The Europeans begin to slowly educate the Aboriginals about European culture and ways of thinking.
The U.S. slowly begins to educate the Iraqis (and other Middle Eastern cultures) about Western culture and democracy.
Ultimately, Europeans upset the culture of the Aboriginals, which lead to unrest and tension for several centuries.
Ultimately, the U.S. has not improved its world image, so the Middle East fears that the U.S. desires only to assimilate them into mainstream Western culture, without keeping the unique Middle East culture intact.
I admit that it is not a complete parallel: the Europeans sought colonization, the U.S. does not--or does it? The U.S. seeks colonization through the mind: they want allies, they want stability, they want resources. These are all admirable goals, I just think the U.S. is going about them in the wrong way.
But before someone asks, I'll also admit that I really don't have a comprehensive plan to make the world a better place. Humans define themselves by the unknown, we also define our beliefs by what we believe to be wrong.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:22 pm |
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Heres the bottom line. Im going to submit a letter to the administration and to future ones. NEVER HELP A COUNTRY ACHIEVE SECURITY, PEACE, AND DEMOCRACY EVER AGAIN. THE WORLD WILL SIMPLY HATE YOU FOR IT.
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Pah-Wraith
Sheikh
Joined: 30 Nov 2001
Posts: 6012
Location: Londonistan.
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:24 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | What point are you trying to prove Pah? |
| Rep Man wrote: | | Where the hell did we go to war for religion? NO WHERE. |
| George W. Bush wrote: | | "We are going on a CRUSADE" |
| Kyre wrote: | | 2. A holy war undertaken with papal sanction. |
Need I explain?
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Kyre
Commodore
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 1263
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:25 pm |
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Never attempt to help a country achieve security, peace and democracy ever again.
I think that's what you are trying to say.
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Kyre
Commodore
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 1263
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:25 pm |
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| Pah-Wraith wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | What point are you trying to prove Pah? |
| Rep Man wrote: | | Where the hell did we go to war for religion? NO WHERE. |
| George W. Bush wrote: | | "We are going on a CRUSADE" |
| Kyre wrote: | | 2. A holy war undertaken with papal sanction. |
Need I explain? |
3. A vigorous concerted movement for a cause or against an abuse.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:25 pm |
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I don't think this whole thing is about Religion ti be fair Pah. At least not from the US side.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:25 pm |
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| Pah-Wraith wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | What point are you trying to prove Pah? |
| Rep Man wrote: | | Where the hell did we go to war for religion? NO WHERE. |
| George W. Bush wrote: | | "We are going on a CRUSADE" |
| Kyre wrote: | | 2. A holy war undertaken with papal sanction. |
Need I explain? |
Or perhaps looking at all the definitions would be sufficient?
| Quote: | | 3. A vigorous concerted movement for a cause or against an abuse. |
Last edited by Puck on Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:26 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | Heres the bottom line. Im going to submit a letter to the administration and to future ones. NEVER HELP A COUNTRY ACHIEVE SECURITY, PEACE, AND DEMOCRACY EVER AGAIN. THE WORLD WILL SIMPLY HATE YOU FOR IT. |
It's a good idea. History shows that people who did what is now considered the 'right thing' were persecuted during their time.
I believe we should help countries achieve security, peace, and democracy--just not in the method the U.S. is going about it.
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Pah-Wraith
Sheikh
Joined: 30 Nov 2001
Posts: 6012
Location: Londonistan.
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:30 pm |
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| JanewayIsHott wrote: | | Pah-Wraith wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | What point are you trying to prove Pah? |
| Rep Man wrote: | | Where the hell did we go to war for religion? NO WHERE. |
| George W. Bush wrote: | | "We are going on a CRUSADE" |
| Kyre wrote: | | 2. A holy war undertaken with papal sanction. |
Need I explain? |
Or perhaps looking at all the definitions would be sufficient?
| Quote: | | 3. A vigorous concerted movement for a cause or against an abuse. |
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If it were that definition why was Bush so apologetic about his speech and that word in particular?
Fair point Founder it probably isn't I'm merely making the point that U.S isn't free from it's own Religious Fanaticism.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:30 pm |
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| Pah-Wraith wrote: | | Quote: | | "We are going on a CRUSADE" |
George W Bush- September 2001. |
What's the "Crusade" against? TERRORISTS. Not religion.
| Founder wrote: | | Heres the bottom line. Im going to submit a letter to the administration and to future ones. NEVER HELP A COUNTRY ACHIEVE SECURITY, PEACE, AND DEMOCRACY EVER AGAIN. THE WORLD WILL SIMPLY HATE YOU FOR IT. |
Good thought.
| Founder wrote: | | I don't think this whole thing is about Religion ti be fair Pah. At least not from the US side. |
Agreed.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Defiant
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 04 Jul 2001
Posts: 15946
Location: Oregon City, OR
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:45 pm |
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Why did the terrorists attack us? Their jihad. Jihad is a...HOLY WAR. People become terrorists because if they kill themselves, they go to be with Allah. Again, religious.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:50 pm |
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| Defiant wrote: | | Why did the terrorists attack us? Their jihad. Jihad is a...HOLY WAR. People become terrorists because if they kill themselves, they go to be with Allah. Again, religious. |
But not on the US side, not that fanatisism of killing for God because they are awaiting Virgins in Heavan. America is not Evil...these terrorists ARE.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:52 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | America is not Evil...these terrorists ARE. |
Only from your point of view.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:53 pm |
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Are you telling me that somewhere in the World people believe the terorist to be good? Murdering children turn into a good thing?
Besides the terrorists POV.
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Defiant
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 04 Jul 2001
Posts: 15946
Location: Oregon City, OR
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:54 pm |
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Yes. The terrorists believe they are doing the right thing. And according to your own false beliefs, so did Hussein. So you just contradicted yourself.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:56 pm |
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What? WTF are you talking about? Where did I contradict myself?
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