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Defiant
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 04 Jul 2001
Posts: 15946
Location: Oregon City, OR
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 Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:12 pm Iraqi Nationalism |
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You know, we have a real problem in Iraq. They dont care about Iraq. Theyre so worried about who is what religion, etc, that they will never unite under one leader or governing body. Its like in the US, we all look past our religion, and take being an american as #1. The Iraqis, simply dont care about being Iraqi.
And can you blame them? They were originally the Ottoman Empire. Then Turkey got defeated in WW1, and the british made them their little colony, and divided up the middle east amongst everyone. Pakistan, Palistine, Jordan, Yemen, Iraq...All got split up, and now dont care about their country enough to evolve past their squabbles.
Mkay, everyone (RM  ) gets to yell at me now.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:13 pm |
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They don't care about Iraq? Whos they?
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Defiant
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 04 Jul 2001
Posts: 15946
Location: Oregon City, OR
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:15 pm |
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The Iraqi people. They dont have a sense of nationalism, therefore trying to let them go off and be a democratic nation state is ridiculous, because they dont care enough to unite under one power or governing body.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:17 pm |
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Well I don't think that alllll of them lack care of their country. However, many of them do fit the description you have posted. This is a big screw-up I think Bush made when he went into Iraq. He failed to more closely observe these problems, or at least come to realize them, before he decided to commence "Shock & Awe".
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:19 pm |
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| JanewayIsHott wrote: | | Well I don't think that alllll of them lack care of their country. However, many of them do fit the description you have posted. This is a big screw-up I think Bush made when he went into Iraq. He failed to more closely observe these problems, or at least come to realize them, before he decided to commence "Shock & Awe". |
Who are you Bill Maher? Cause your using the lame jokes he did to describe the attack on Iraq.
Anywho....
Your suddenly the voice of the Iraqi people? Now you know how they all feel? When the election comes we'll see how many do or do not care.
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Defiant
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 04 Jul 2001
Posts: 15946
Location: Oregon City, OR
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:22 pm |
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No, we wont. We wont be able to tell anything. But just the fact that the Iraqis still organize against the US troops, is proof enought that they dont want us there. IE, they dont want to be democratically reformed, IE, they dont have a feeling of nationalism for their country.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:22 pm |
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| Quote: | Who are you Bill Maher? Cause your using the lame jokes he did to describe the attack on Iraq.
Anywho....
Your suddenly the voice of the Iraqi people? Now you know how they all feel? When the election comes we'll see how many do or do not care.
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And since when are you their voice telling me that I have it all wrong???
And what was so joking about that anyway? Sheesh, god-forbid someone condemn the Bush administration of making a mistake  .
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Defiant
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 04 Jul 2001
Posts: 15946
Location: Oregon City, OR
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:24 pm |
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I personally view the Bush administration as one giant mistake, but we wont get into that now.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:27 pm |
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Defiant, you can't even see that the majority of Iraqis support this situation (ask that Iraqi Councilwoman that I spoke of  , therefore you should not say such things. No, you're speech should not be restricted, but in my opinion since you cannot even see that truth, you don't have the "right" to speak for Iraq. You've been too hung up on Liberal media like CNN, the NY Times, MSNBC, CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX News (increasingly) and more to see this truth.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Defiant
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 04 Jul 2001
Posts: 15946
Location: Oregon City, OR
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:29 pm |
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I havent seen any of those news stations, and I dont care about your Iraqi councilwoman. Iraq isnt pleased with the US, this much is 100% obvious, due to the fact that there is still a war. And its not a few rogues, its alot of people dying every day.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:32 pm |
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| Defiant wrote: | | I havent seen any of those news stations, and I dont care about your Iraqi councilwoman. Iraq isnt pleased with the US, this much is 100% obvious, due to the fact that there is still a war. And its not a few rogues, its alot of people dying every day. |
Om, no. You are WRONG. Get your facts straight and open your eyes, won't you? Wait, no, you can't. You're more blinded than Ray Charles was.
And just because it's only 12-1500 people (a small minority) doesn't mean that they can't be deadly
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Pah-Wraith
Sheikh
Joined: 30 Nov 2001
Posts: 6012
Location: Londonistan.
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:34 pm |
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| Defiant wrote: | | No, we wont. We wont be able to tell anything. But just the fact that the Iraqis still organize against the US troops, is proof enought that they dont want us there. IE, they dont want to be democratically reformed, IE, they dont have a feeling of nationalism for their country. |
Shi'ite or Sunni- Nationalism goes against the main principles of Islam, something which Iran seems to forget
Shias believe they should be governed by Ayatollahs and so Theocracy is the main want in that case.
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Defiant
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 04 Jul 2001
Posts: 15946
Location: Oregon City, OR
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:35 pm |
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If the entire Iraqi population came up to him and said they care about the country he would sill disagree. Some of them do care.
| Defiant wrote: | | I havent seen any of those news stations, and I dont care about your Iraqi councilwoman. Iraq isnt pleased with the US, this much is 100% obvious, due to the fact that there is still a war. And its not a few rogues, its alot of people dying every day |
With that kinda mentality since some Whites resisted black equality then they should never have received it. Glad you weren't around back then to mess things up.
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Defiant
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 04 Jul 2001
Posts: 15946
Location: Oregon City, OR
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:37 pm |
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Your analogy is flawed and I view it as an attack. Desist.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:37 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | If the entire Iraqi population came up to him and said they care about the country he would sill disagree. Some of them do care.
| Defiant wrote: | | I havent seen any of those news stations, and I dont care about your Iraqi councilwoman. Iraq isnt pleased with the US, this much is 100% obvious, due to the fact that there is still a war. And its not a few rogues, its alot of people dying every day |
With that kinda mentality since some Whites resisted black equality then they should never have received it. Glad you weren't around back then to mess things up. |
Right on. If that Iraqi Councilwoman and another Iraqi walked onto his doorstep and told him the truth, he still wouldn't believe it. Blinded worse than Ray Charles. Where's Geordi's device, Defiant?
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Kyre
Commodore
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 1263
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:38 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | Right on. If that Iraqi Councilwoman and another Iraqi walked onto his doorstep and told him the truth, he still wouldn't believe it. Blinded worse than Ray Charles. Where's Geordi's device, Defiant? |
Two opinions make it the truth?
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Defiant
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 04 Jul 2001
Posts: 15946
Location: Oregon City, OR
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:39 pm |
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You continue to use the same stupid comment. You really should think of something more creative RM. And you know what, youre wrong. Youre 100% wrong. And we've been saying "youre wrong" back and forth for 10 posts now, so im pretty sure neither side is going to give or do anything else. Im leaving. No getting through to you crazy repubs.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:39 pm |
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I am glad you all have so much information to support your topic that we have resorted to personally attacking Mark to get a point across .
Last edited by Puck on Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:39 pm |
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| Kyre wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | Right on. If that Iraqi Councilwoman and another Iraqi walked onto his doorstep and told him the truth, he still wouldn't believe it. Blinded worse than Ray Charles. Where's Geordi's device, Defiant? |
Two opinions make it the truth? |
Go back a page. I posted many facts.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:40 pm |
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Sorry, that's in one of the other topics at the top...I'll re-post.
| Republican_Man wrote: | 1. Founder and Rb are right 100%!! We are NOT an imperialist nation, and we do NOT control countries.
2. | Defiant wrote: | | We have troops there. We decide when they hold elections, who gets elected, what gets done with their resources, how to train their security forces. We control them. We are the puppet master to Iraq and Afghanistan, end of story. |
Ah, not true. That's false.
A. The IRAQIS are deciding when to hold elections, and who gets elected, etc. WE DO NOT CONTROL THEM! THAT IS FALSE! Sure, we are their primary security trainers, but they are their OWN SOVEREIGN NATION. Most of Iraq *cough* 25 million *cough* SUPPORT our efforts, while a slim amount *cough* 12-15 THOUSAND *cough* don't. That's IT. Those are the facts that the Liberal US media won't let you hear. I don't know if your misguided, or just blind. But, whatever suits you.
| Defiant wrote: | To stop terrorism? There were no terrorists in Iraq. There were no connections to 9/11. That point is invalid. That is a ruse created to hide their real motives.
And yes, we do control them. We hand picked the prime minister. He does exactly the things that the US agrees with. Dont you imagine if they were truly free we would have at least a little controversy or disagreement over things? Not if we are telling them what to do. |
Um...yes, there were terrorists in Iraq! It is a COMPLETELY valid to state that. Ever heard of a man leading the terrorists and part of al Quada known as, om, ZARQOWI? HUH? Guess not...He was IN IRAQ BEFORE HAND, and got MEDICAL AID AND SECURITY!!!! He HELPED A KNOWN TERRORIST! And the list goes ON!
Also, Saddam HIMSELF was a terrorist and a Weapon of Mass Destruction! Ever heard of the Mass Graves? Hundreds of them? Guess not. You haven't heard of a lot of things, huh?
Sure, there was no DIRECT tie to 9/11, but they SUPPORTED the organization that carried out the attack.
Read this article, if you dare to see the truth. I don't want you to focus on the WMD portion, but the terrorist portion:
| CNS News wrote: |
CNSNews.com
Exclusive: Saddam Possessed WMD, Had Extensive Terror Ties
By Scott Wheeler
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
October 04, 2004
(CNSNews.com) - Iraqi intelligence documents, confiscated by U.S. forces and obtained by CNSNews.com, show numerous efforts by Saddam Hussein's regime to work with some of the world's most notorious terror organizations, including al Qaeda, to target Americans. They demonstrate that Saddam's government possessed mustard gas and anthrax, both considered weapons of mass destruction, in the summer of 2000, during the period in which United Nations weapons inspectors were not present in Iraq. And the papers show that Iraq trained dozens of terrorists inside its borders.
One of the Iraqi memos contains an order from Saddam for his intelligence service to support terrorist attacks against Americans in Somalia. The memo was written nine months before U.S. Army Rangers were ambushed in Mogadishu by forces loyal to a warlord with alleged ties to al Qaeda.
Other memos provide a list of terrorist groups with whom Iraq had relationships and considered available for terror operations against the United States.
Among the organizations mentioned are those affiliated with Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and Ayman al-Zawahiri, two of the world's most wanted terrorists. Zarqawi is believed responsible for the kidnapping and beheading of several American civilians in Iraq and claimed responsibility for a series of deadly bombings in Iraq Sept. 30. Al-Zawahiri is the top lieutenant of al Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden, allegedly helped plan the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist strikes on the U.S., and is believed to be the voice on an audio tape broadcast by Al-Jazeera television Oct. 1, calling for attacks on U.S. and British interests everywhere.
The source of the documents
A senior government official who is not a political appointee provided CNSNews.com with copies of the 42 pages of Iraqi Intelligence Service documents. The originals, some of which were hand-written and others typed, are in Arabic. CNSNews.com had the papers translated into English by two individuals separately and independent of each other.
There are no hand-writing samples to which the documents can be compared for forensic analysis and authentication. However, three other experts - a former weapons inspector with the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM), a retired CIA counter-terrorism official with vast experience dealing with Iraq, and a former advisor to then-presidential candidate Bill Clinton on Iraq - were asked to analyze the documents. All said they comport with the format, style and content of other Iraqi documents from that era known to be genuine.
Laurie Mylroie, who authored the book, "Study of Revenge: Saddam Hussein's Unfinished War against America," and advised Clinton on Iraq during the 1992 presidential campaign, told CNSNews.com that the papers represent "the most complete set of documents relating Iraq to terrorism, including Islamic terrorism" against the U.S.
Mylroie has long maintained that Iraq was a state sponsor of terrorism against the United States. The documents obtained by CNSNews.com , she said, include "correspondence back and forth between Saddam's office and Iraqi Mukhabarat (intelligence agency). They make sense. This is what one would think Saddam was doing at the time."
Bruce Tefft, a retired CIA official who specialized in counter-terrorism and had extensive experience dealing with Iraq, said that "based on available, unclassified and open source information, the details in these documents are accurate ..."
The former UNSCOM inspector zeroed in on the signatures on the documents and "the names of some of the people who sign off on these things.
"This is fairly typical of that time era. [The Iraqis] were meticulous record keepers," added the former U.N. official, who spoke with CNSNews.com on the condition of anonymity.
The senior government official, who furnished the documents to CNSNews.com, said the papers answer "whether or not Iraq was a state sponsor of Islamic terrorism against the United States. It also answers whether or not Iraq had an ongoing biological warfare project continuing through the period when the UNSCOM inspections ended."
Presidential campaign focused on Iraq
The presidential campaign is currently dominated by debate over whether Saddam procured weapons of mass destruction and/or whether his government sponsored terrorism aimed at Americans before the U.S. invaded Iraq last year. Democratic nominee Sen. John Kerry has repeatedly rejected that possibility and criticized President Bush for needlessly invading Iraq.
"[Bush's] two main rationales - weapons of mass destruction and the al Qaeda/September 11 (2001) connection - have been proved false ... by the president's own weapons inspectors ... and by the 9/11 Commission," Kerry told an audience at New York University on Sept. 20.
The Senate Intelligence Committee's probe of the 9/11 intelligence failures also could not produce any definitive links between Saddam's government and 9/11. And United Nations as well as U.S. weapons inspectors in Iraq have been unable to find the biological and chemical weapons Saddam was suspected of possessing.
But the documents obtained by CNSNews.com shed new light on the controversy.
They detail the Iraqi regime's purchase of five kilograms of mustard gas on Aug. 21, 2000 and three vials of malignant pustule, another term for anthrax, on Sept. 6, 2000. The purchase order for the mustard gas includes gas masks, filters and rubber gloves. The order for the anthrax includes sterilization and decontamination equipment. (See Saddam's Possession of Mustard Gas)
The documents show that Iraqi intelligence received the mustard gas and anthrax from "Saddam's company," which Tefft said was probably a reference to Saddam General Establishment, "a complex of factories involved with, amongst other things, precision optics, missile, and artillery fabrication."
"Sa'ad's general company" is listed on the Iraqi documents as the supplier of the sterilization and decontamination equipment that accompanied the anthrax vials. Tefft believes this is a reference to the Salah Al-Din State Establishment, also involved in missile construction. (See Saddam's Possession of Anthrax)
The Jaber Ibn Hayan General Company is listed as the supplier of the safety equipment that accompanied the mustard gas order. Tefft described the company as "a 'turn-key' project built by Romania, designed to produce protective CW (conventional warfare) and BW (biological warfare) equipment (gas masks and protective clothing)."
"Iraq had an ongoing biological warfare project continuing through the period when the UNSCOM inspections ended," the senior government official and source of the documents said. "This should cause us to redouble our efforts to find the Iraqi weapons of mass destruction programs."
'Hunt the Americans'
The first of the 42 pages of Iraqi documents is dated Jan. 18, 1993, approximately two years after American troops defeated Saddam's army in the first Persian Gulf War. The memo includes Saddam's directive that "the party should move to hunt the Americans who are on Arabian land, especially in Somalia, by using Arabian elements ..."
On Oct. 3, 1993, less than nine months after that Iraqi memo was written, American soldiers were ambushed in Mogadishu, Somalia by forces loyal to Somali warlord Mohammed Farah Aidid, an alleged associate of Osama bin Laden. Eighteen Americans were killed and 84 wounded during a 17-hour firefight that followed the ambush in which Aidid's followers used civilians as decoys. (See Saddam's Connections to al Qaeda)
An 11-page Iraqi memo, dated Jan. 25, 1993, lists Palestinian, Sudanese and Asian terrorist organizations and the relationships Iraq had with each of them. Of particular importance, Tefft said, are the relationships Iraq had already developed or was in the process of developing with groups and individuals affiliated with al Qaeda, such as Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and Ayman al-Zawahiri. The U.S. currently is offering rewards of up to $25 million for each man's capture.
The documents describe Al-Jehad wa'l Tajdeed as "a secret Palestinian organization" founded after the first Persian Gulf War that "believes in armed struggle against U.S. and western interests." The leaders of the group, according to the Iraqi memo, were stationed in Jordan in 1993, and when one of those leaders visited Iraq in November 1992, he "showed the readiness of his organization to execute operations against U.S. interests at any time." (See More Saddam Connections to al Qaeda)
Tefft believes the Tajdeed group likely included al-Zarqawi, whom Teft described as "our current terrorist nemesis" in Iraq, "a Palestinian on a Jordanian passport who was with al Qaeda and bin Laden in Afghanistan prior to this period (1993)."
Tajdeed, which means Islamic Renewal, currently "has a website that posts Zarqawi's speeches, messages, claims of assassinations and beheading videos," Tefft told CNSNews.com. "The apparent linkages are too close to be accidental" and might "be one of the first operational contacts between an al Qaeda group and Iraq," he added.
Tefft said the documents, all of which the Iraqi Intelligence Service labeled "Top secret, personal and urgent" show several links between Saddam's government and terror groups dedicated not only to targeting America but also U.S. allies like Egypt and Israel.
The same 11-page memo refers to the "re-opening of the relationship" with Al-Jehad al-Islamy, which is described as "the most violent in Egypt," responsible for the 1981 assassination of Egyptian President Anwar Sadat. The documents go on to describe a Dec. 14, 1990 meeting between Iraqi intelligence officials and a representative of Al-Jehad al-Islamy, that ended in an agreement "to move against [the] Egyptian regime by doing martyr operations on conditions that we should secure the finance, training and equipments." (See More Saddam Connections to al Qaeda)
Al-Zawahiri was one of the leaders of Jehad al-Islamy, which is also known as the Egyptian Islamic Group, and participated in the assassination of Sadat, Tefft said. "Iraq's contact with the Egyptian Islamic Group is another operational contact between Iraq and al Qaeda," he added.
One of the Asian groups listed on the Iraqi intelligence memo is J.U.I., also known as the Islamic Clerks Society. The group is currently led by Mawlana Fadhel al-Rahman, whom Tefft said is "an al Qaeda member and co-signed Osama bin Laden's 1998 fatwa (religious ruling) to kill Americans." The Iraqi memo from 1993 states that J.U.I.'s secretary general "has a good relationship with our system since 1981 and he is ready for any mission." Tefft said the memo shows "another direct Iraq link to an al Qaeda group."
Iraq had also maintained a relationship with the Afghani Islamist party since 1989, according to the memo. The "relationship was improved and became directly between the leader, Hekmatyar and Iraq," it states, referring to Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, an Afghani warlord who fought against the Soviet Union and current al Qaeda ally, according to Tefft.
Last year, American authorities in Afghanistan ranked Hekmatyar third on their most wanted list, behind only bin Laden and former Taliban leader Mullah Omar. Hekmatyar represents "another Iraqi link to an al Qaeda group," Tefft said. (See More Saddam Connections to al Qaeda)
The Iraqi intelligence documents also refer to terrorist groups previously believed to have had links with Saddam Hussein. They include the Palestine Liberation Front, a group dedicated to attacking Israel, and according to the Iraqi memo, one with "an office in Baghdad."
The Abu Nidal group, suspected by the CIA of having acted as surrogates for Iraqi terrorist attacks, is also mentioned.
"The movement believes in political violence and assassinations," the 1993 Iraqi memo states in reference to the Abu Nidal organization. "We have relationships with them since 1973. Currently, they have a representative in the country. Monthly helps are given to them -- 20 thousand dinars - in addition to other supports," the memo explains. (See Saddam's Connections to Palestinian Terror Groups)
Iraq not only built and maintained relationships with terrorist groups, the documents show it appears to have trained terrorists as well. Ninety-two individuals from various Middle Eastern countries are listed on the papers.
Many are described as having "finished the course at M14," a reference to an Iraqi intelligence agency, and to having "participated in Umm El-Ma'arek," the Iraqi response to the U.S. invasion in 1991. The author of the list notes that approximately half of the individuals "all got trained inside the 'martyr act camp' that belonged to our directorate."
The former UNSCOM weapons inspector who was asked to analyze the documents believes it's clear that the Iraqis "were training people there in assassination and suicide bombing techniques ... including non-Iraqis."
Bush administration likely unaware of documents' existence
The senior government official and source of the Iraqi intelligence memos, explained that the reason the documents have not been made public before now is that the government has "thousands and thousands of documents waiting to be translated.
"It is unlikely they even know this exists," the source added.
The government official also explained that the motivation for leaking the documents, "is strictly national security and helping with the war on terrorism by focusing this country's attention on facts and away from political posturing.
"This is too important to let it get caught up in the political process," the source told CNSNews.com.
To protect against the Iraqi intelligence documents being altered or misrepresented elsewhere on the Internet, CNSNews.com has decided to publish only the first of the 42 pages in Arabic, along with the English translation. Portions of some of the other memos in translated form are also being published to accompany this report. Credentialed journalists and counter-terrorism experts seeking to view the 42 pages of Arabic documents or to challenge their authenticity may make arrangements to do so at CNSNews.com headquarters in Alexandria, Va.
Source
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In effect, Saddam had EXTENSIVE terrorist ties, and you are BLIND and WRONG if you cannot see that. It is NOT a ruse, it is the TRUTH. What if Kerry said it? Oh wait--he DID! And I have that quote somewhere...
And don't forget ties to Palestinian terrorists!
No, we don't control them, back to that. Sure, we picked their INTERUM PRIME MINISTER in the PAST, but no longer! You are just blind. That's all. |
| Republican_Man wrote: | Just found this:
| CNS News wrote: | Saddam�s Connection to al Qaeda:
(Memo from Iraqi Intelligence Service to Abid Hamid Mahmud, Saddam�s secretary on Jan. 25, 1993)
In the name of Allah the compassionate the kind
Top secret, personal & urgent
Republic of Iraq
The bureau of presidency
The Iraqi intelligence service
Issue # 110/2/ 43
Date; Jan. 25th,1993
Shaaban 3rd.1413 Hijri
Recently, our system met Sheikh Ali Othman Taha the vice
chairman of the National Islamic Front in Sudan, we agreed with him on the following:
A- Re opening of the relationship with �Al-Jehad al-Islamy� organization in Egypt, also known as �Al-Jama�at al-Islameya/ The Islamic groups� which was found by an Egyptian (Mohammed Abdel Salam Faraj) and currently led by Dr. Omar Abdel Rahman, the organization is considered as the most violent in Egypt, they assassinated �Anwar Sadat� & �Refa�at Al-Mahjoob,� who was the chairman of people�s council in Egypt.
A meeting had already been conducted with a representative from the organization on Dec. 14th, 1990. We agreed on a plan to move against Egyptian regime by doing martyr operations on conditions that we should secure the finance, training and equipments. |
Source
| CNS News wrote: | Saddam�s Connection to al Qaeda:
(Memo from Abid Hamid Mahmud, Saddam Hussein�s secretary, to Ali Al-Reech Al-Sheikh, member of Arabian Bureau Ba�ath Party leadership on Jan. 18, 1993)
In the name of Allah the compassionate the kind
Top secret, personal & urgent
Republic of Iraq
The bureau of presidency
The secretary
Issue # 425/K
Date; Jan.18th, 1993
Rajab 25th.1413 Hijri
Esquire Comrade Ali Al-Reeh Al-Sheikh/a member of
The Arabian Bureau-Ba�ath party leadership.
Subject: instruction
In a continuity with our former book#7184/K on Dec. 20th, 1992, it�s decided that the party should move to hunt the Americans who are on Arabian land, especially in Somalia, by using Arabian elements, or Asian (Muslims) or friends.
Take the necessary steps
Stay well for struggle
Signature of the president�s secretary
Jan.18th, 1993
Copy to:
The General Director of the intelligence system/
The same purpose mentioned above that concerned your duties
Source |
So don't you go telling me there's no ties! |
Last edited by Republican_Man on Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:41 pm |
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Are you people f*****g for real? How are we attacking him?
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Defiant
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 04 Jul 2001
Posts: 15946
Location: Oregon City, OR
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:41 pm |
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| JanewayIsHott wrote: | I am glad you all have so much information to support your topic that we have resorted to personally attacking Mark to get
a point across . |
You called me a racist. That is a personal attack, and I will have no more of it.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:41 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | 1. Founder and Rb are right 100%!! We are NOT an imperialist nation, and we do NOT control countries.
2. | Defiant wrote: | | We have troops there. We decide when they hold elections, who gets elected, what gets done with their resources, how to train their security forces. We control them. We are the puppet master to Iraq and Afghanistan, end of story. |
Ah, not true. That's false.
A. The IRAQIS are deciding when to hold elections, and who gets elected, etc. WE DO NOT CONTROL THEM! THAT IS FALSE! Sure, we are their primary security trainers, but they are their OWN SOVEREIGN NATION. Most of Iraq *cough* 25 million *cough* SUPPORT our efforts, while a slim amount *cough* 12-15 THOUSAND *cough* don't. That's IT. Those are the facts that the Liberal US media won't let you hear. I don't know if your misguided, or just blind. But, whatever suits you.
| Defiant wrote: | To stop terrorism? There were no terrorists in Iraq. There were no connections to 9/11. That point is invalid. That is a ruse created to hide their real motives.
And yes, we do control them. We hand picked the prime minister. He does exactly the things that the US agrees with. Dont you imagine if they were truly free we would have at least a little controversy or disagreement over things? Not if we are telling them what to do. |
Um...yes, there were terrorists in Iraq! It is a COMPLETELY valid to state that. Ever heard of a man leading the terrorists and part of al Quada known as, om, ZARQOWI? HUH? Guess not...He was IN IRAQ BEFORE HAND, and got MEDICAL AID AND SECURITY!!!! He HELPED A KNOWN TERRORIST! And the list goes ON!
Also, Saddam HIMSELF was a terrorist and a Weapon of Mass Destruction! Ever heard of the Mass Graves? Hundreds of them? Guess not. You haven't heard of a lot of things, huh?
Sure, there was no DIRECT tie to 9/11, but they SUPPORTED the organization that carried out the attack.
Read this article, if you dare to see the truth. I don't want you to focus on the WMD portion, but the terrorist portion:
| CNS News wrote: |
CNSNews.com
Exclusive: Saddam Possessed WMD, Had Extensive Terror Ties
By Scott Wheeler
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
October 04, 2004
(CNSNews.com) - Iraqi intelligence documents, confiscated by U.S. forces and obtained by CNSNews.com, show numerous efforts by Saddam Hussein's regime to work with some of the world's most notorious terror organizations, including al Qaeda, to target Americans. They demonstrate that Saddam's government possessed mustard gas and anthrax, both considered weapons of mass destruction, in the summer of 2000, during the period in which United Nations weapons inspectors were not present in Iraq. And the papers show that Iraq trained dozens of terrorists inside its borders.
One of the Iraqi memos contains an order from Saddam for his intelligence service to support terrorist attacks against Americans in Somalia. The memo was written nine months before U.S. Army Rangers were ambushed in Mogadishu by forces loyal to a warlord with alleged ties to al Qaeda.
Other memos provide a list of terrorist groups with whom Iraq had relationships and considered available for terror operations against the United States.
Among the organizations mentioned are those affiliated with Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and Ayman al-Zawahiri, two of the world's most wanted terrorists. Zarqawi is believed responsible for the kidnapping and beheading of several American civilians in Iraq and claimed responsibility for a series of deadly bombings in Iraq Sept. 30. Al-Zawahiri is the top lieutenant of al Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden, allegedly helped plan the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist strikes on the U.S., and is believed to be the voice on an audio tape broadcast by Al-Jazeera television Oct. 1, calling for attacks on U.S. and British interests everywhere.
The source of the documents
A senior government official who is not a political appointee provided CNSNews.com with copies of the 42 pages of Iraqi Intelligence Service documents. The originals, some of which were hand-written and others typed, are in Arabic. CNSNews.com had the papers translated into English by two individuals separately and independent of each other.
There are no hand-writing samples to which the documents can be compared for forensic analysis and authentication. However, three other experts - a former weapons inspector with the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM), a retired CIA counter-terrorism official with vast experience dealing with Iraq, and a former advisor to then-presidential candidate Bill Clinton on Iraq - were asked to analyze the documents. All said they comport with the format, style and content of other Iraqi documents from that era known to be genuine.
Laurie Mylroie, who authored the book, "Study of Revenge: Saddam Hussein's Unfinished War against America," and advised Clinton on Iraq during the 1992 presidential campaign, told CNSNews.com that the papers represent "the most complete set of documents relating Iraq to terrorism, including Islamic terrorism" against the U.S.
Mylroie has long maintained that Iraq was a state sponsor of terrorism against the United States. The documents obtained by CNSNews.com , she said, include "correspondence back and forth between Saddam's office and Iraqi Mukhabarat (intelligence agency). They make sense. This is what one would think Saddam was doing at the time."
Bruce Tefft, a retired CIA official who specialized in counter-terrorism and had extensive experience dealing with Iraq, said that "based on available, unclassified and open source information, the details in these documents are accurate ..."
The former UNSCOM inspector zeroed in on the signatures on the documents and "the names of some of the people who sign off on these things.
"This is fairly typical of that time era. [The Iraqis] were meticulous record keepers," added the former U.N. official, who spoke with CNSNews.com on the condition of anonymity.
The senior government official, who furnished the documents to CNSNews.com, said the papers answer "whether or not Iraq was a state sponsor of Islamic terrorism against the United States. It also answers whether or not Iraq had an ongoing biological warfare project continuing through the period when the UNSCOM inspections ended."
Presidential campaign focused on Iraq
The presidential campaign is currently dominated by debate over whether Saddam procured weapons of mass destruction and/or whether his government sponsored terrorism aimed at Americans before the U.S. invaded Iraq last year. Democratic nominee Sen. John Kerry has repeatedly rejected that possibility and criticized President Bush for needlessly invading Iraq.
"[Bush's] two main rationales - weapons of mass destruction and the al Qaeda/September 11 (2001) connection - have been proved false ... by the president's own weapons inspectors ... and by the 9/11 Commission," Kerry told an audience at New York University on Sept. 20.
The Senate Intelligence Committee's probe of the 9/11 intelligence failures also could not produce any definitive links between Saddam's government and 9/11. And United Nations as well as U.S. weapons inspectors in Iraq have been unable to find the biological and chemical weapons Saddam was suspected of possessing.
But the documents obtained by CNSNews.com shed new light on the controversy.
They detail the Iraqi regime's purchase of five kilograms of mustard gas on Aug. 21, 2000 and three vials of malignant pustule, another term for anthrax, on Sept. 6, 2000. The purchase order for the mustard gas includes gas masks, filters and rubber gloves. The order for the anthrax includes sterilization and decontamination equipment. (See Saddam's Possession of Mustard Gas)
The documents show that Iraqi intelligence received the mustard gas and anthrax from "Saddam's company," which Tefft said was probably a reference to Saddam General Establishment, "a complex of factories involved with, amongst other things, precision optics, missile, and artillery fabrication."
"Sa'ad's general company" is listed on the Iraqi documents as the supplier of the sterilization and decontamination equipment that accompanied the anthrax vials. Tefft believes this is a reference to the Salah Al-Din State Establishment, also involved in missile construction. (See Saddam's Possession of Anthrax)
The Jaber Ibn Hayan General Company is listed as the supplier of the safety equipment that accompanied the mustard gas order. Tefft described the company as "a 'turn-key' project built by Romania, designed to produce protective CW (conventional warfare) and BW (biological warfare) equipment (gas masks and protective clothing)."
"Iraq had an ongoing biological warfare project continuing through the period when the UNSCOM inspections ended," the senior government official and source of the documents said. "This should cause us to redouble our efforts to find the Iraqi weapons of mass destruction programs."
'Hunt the Americans'
The first of the 42 pages of Iraqi documents is dated Jan. 18, 1993, approximately two years after American troops defeated Saddam's army in the first Persian Gulf War. The memo includes Saddam's directive that "the party should move to hunt the Americans who are on Arabian land, especially in Somalia, by using Arabian elements ..."
On Oct. 3, 1993, less than nine months after that Iraqi memo was written, American soldiers were ambushed in Mogadishu, Somalia by forces loyal to Somali warlord Mohammed Farah Aidid, an alleged associate of Osama bin Laden. Eighteen Americans were killed and 84 wounded during a 17-hour firefight that followed the ambush in which Aidid's followers used civilians as decoys. (See Saddam's Connections to al Qaeda)
An 11-page Iraqi memo, dated Jan. 25, 1993, lists Palestinian, Sudanese and Asian terrorist organizations and the relationships Iraq had with each of them. Of particular importance, Tefft said, are the relationships Iraq had already developed or was in the process of developing with groups and individuals affiliated with al Qaeda, such as Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and Ayman al-Zawahiri. The U.S. currently is offering rewards of up to $25 million for each man's capture.
The documents describe Al-Jehad wa'l Tajdeed as "a secret Palestinian organization" founded after the first Persian Gulf War that "believes in armed struggle against U.S. and western interests." The leaders of the group, according to the Iraqi memo, were stationed in Jordan in 1993, and when one of those leaders visited Iraq in November 1992, he "showed the readiness of his organization to execute operations against U.S. interests at any time." (See More Saddam Connections to al Qaeda)
Tefft believes the Tajdeed group likely included al-Zarqawi, whom Teft described as "our current terrorist nemesis" in Iraq, "a Palestinian on a Jordanian passport who was with al Qaeda and bin Laden in Afghanistan prior to this period (1993)."
Tajdeed, which means Islamic Renewal, currently "has a website that posts Zarqawi's speeches, messages, claims of assassinations and beheading videos," Tefft told CNSNews.com. "The apparent linkages are too close to be accidental" and might "be one of the first operational contacts between an al Qaeda group and Iraq," he added.
Tefft said the documents, all of which the Iraqi Intelligence Service labeled "Top secret, personal and urgent" show several links between Saddam's government and terror groups dedicated not only to targeting America but also U.S. allies like Egypt and Israel.
The same 11-page memo refers to the "re-opening of the relationship" with Al-Jehad al-Islamy, which is described as "the most violent in Egypt," responsible for the 1981 assassination of Egyptian President Anwar Sadat. The documents go on to describe a Dec. 14, 1990 meeting between Iraqi intelligence officials and a representative of Al-Jehad al-Islamy, that ended in an agreement "to move against [the] Egyptian regime by doing martyr operations on conditions that we should secure the finance, training and equipments." (See More Saddam Connections to al Qaeda)
Al-Zawahiri was one of the leaders of Jehad al-Islamy, which is also known as the Egyptian Islamic Group, and participated in the assassination of Sadat, Tefft said. "Iraq's contact with the Egyptian Islamic Group is another operational contact between Iraq and al Qaeda," he added.
One of the Asian groups listed on the Iraqi intelligence memo is J.U.I., also known as the Islamic Clerks Society. The group is currently led by Mawlana Fadhel al-Rahman, whom Tefft said is "an al Qaeda member and co-signed Osama bin Laden's 1998 fatwa (religious ruling) to kill Americans." The Iraqi memo from 1993 states that J.U.I.'s secretary general "has a good relationship with our system since 1981 and he is ready for any mission." Tefft said the memo shows "another direct Iraq link to an al Qaeda group."
Iraq had also maintained a relationship with the Afghani Islamist party since 1989, according to the memo. The "relationship was improved and became directly between the leader, Hekmatyar and Iraq," it states, referring to Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, an Afghani warlord who fought against the Soviet Union and current al Qaeda ally, according to Tefft.
Last year, American authorities in Afghanistan ranked Hekmatyar third on their most wanted list, behind only bin Laden and former Taliban leader Mullah Omar. Hekmatyar represents "another Iraqi link to an al Qaeda group," Tefft said. (See More Saddam Connections to al Qaeda)
The Iraqi intelligence documents also refer to terrorist groups previously believed to have had links with Saddam Hussein. They include the Palestine Liberation Front, a group dedicated to attacking Israel, and according to the Iraqi memo, one with "an office in Baghdad."
The Abu Nidal group, suspected by the CIA of having acted as surrogates for Iraqi terrorist attacks, is also mentioned.
"The movement believes in political violence and assassinations," the 1993 Iraqi memo states in reference to the Abu Nidal organization. "We have relationships with them since 1973. Currently, they have a representative in the country. Monthly helps are given to them -- 20 thousand dinars - in addition to other supports," the memo explains. (See Saddam's Connections to Palestinian Terror Groups)
Iraq not only built and maintained relationships with terrorist groups, the documents show it appears to have trained terrorists as well. Ninety-two individuals from various Middle Eastern countries are listed on the papers.
Many are described as having "finished the course at M14," a reference to an Iraqi intelligence agency, and to having "participated in Umm El-Ma'arek," the Iraqi response to the U.S. invasion in 1991. The author of the list notes that approximately half of the individuals "all got trained inside the 'martyr act camp' that belonged to our directorate."
The former UNSCOM weapons inspector who was asked to analyze the documents believes it's clear that the Iraqis "were training people there in assassination and suicide bombing techniques ... including non-Iraqis."
Bush administration likely unaware of documents' existence
The senior government official and source of the Iraqi intelligence memos, explained that the reason the documents have not been made public before now is that the government has "thousands and thousands of documents waiting to be translated.
"It is unlikely they even know this exists," the source added.
The government official also explained that the motivation for leaking the documents, "is strictly national security and helping with the war on terrorism by focusing this country's attention on facts and away from political posturing.
"This is too important to let it get caught up in the political process," the source told CNSNews.com.
To protect against the Iraqi intelligence documents being altered or misrepresented elsewhere on the Internet, CNSNews.com has decided to publish only the first of the 42 pages in Arabic, along with the English translation. Portions of some of the other memos in translated form are also being published to accompany this report. Credentialed journalists and counter-terrorism experts seeking to view the 42 pages of Arabic documents or to challenge their authenticity may make arrangements to do so at CNSNews.com headquarters in Alexandria, Va.
Source
|
In effect, Saddam had EXTENSIVE terrorist ties, and you are BLIND and WRONG if you cannot see that. It is NOT a ruse, it is the TRUTH. What if Kerry said it? Oh wait--he DID! And I have that quote somewhere...
And don't forget ties to Palestinian terrorists!
No, we don't control them, back to that. Sure, we picked their INTERUM PRIME MINISTER in the PAST, but no longer! You are just blind. That's all. |
| Republican_Man wrote: | Just found this:
| CNS News wrote: | Saddam�s Connection to al Qaeda:
(Memo from Iraqi Intelligence Service to Abid Hamid Mahmud, Saddam�s secretary on Jan. 25, 1993)
In the name of Allah the compassionate the kind
Top secret, personal & urgent
Republic of Iraq
The bureau of presidency
The Iraqi intelligence service
Issue # 110/2/ 43
Date; Jan. 25th,1993
Shaaban 3rd.1413 Hijri
Recently, our system met Sheikh Ali Othman Taha the vice
chairman of the National Islamic Front in Sudan, we agreed with him on the following:
A- Re opening of the relationship with �Al-Jehad al-Islamy� organization in Egypt, also known as �Al-Jama�at al-Islameya/ The Islamic groups� which was found by an Egyptian (Mohammed Abdel Salam Faraj) and currently led by Dr. Omar Abdel Rahman, the organization is considered as the most violent in Egypt, they assassinated �Anwar Sadat� & �Refa�at Al-Mahjoob,� who was the chairman of people�s council in Egypt.
A meeting had already been conducted with a representative from the organization on Dec. 14th, 1990. We agreed on a plan to move against Egyptian regime by doing martyr operations on conditions that we should secure the finance, training and equipments. |
Source
| CNS News wrote: | Saddam�s Connection to al Qaeda:
(Memo from Abid Hamid Mahmud, Saddam Hussein�s secretary, to Ali Al-Reech Al-Sheikh, member of Arabian Bureau Ba�ath Party leadership on Jan. 18, 1993)
In the name of Allah the compassionate the kind
Top secret, personal & urgent
Republic of Iraq
The bureau of presidency
The secretary
Issue # 425/K
Date; Jan.18th, 1993
Rajab 25th.1413 Hijri
Esquire Comrade Ali Al-Reeh Al-Sheikh/a member of
The Arabian Bureau-Ba�ath party leadership.
Subject: instruction
In a continuity with our former book#7184/K on Dec. 20th, 1992, it�s decided that the party should move to hunt the Americans who are on Arabian land, especially in Somalia, by using Arabian elements, or Asian (Muslims) or friends.
Take the necessary steps
Stay well for struggle
Signature of the president�s secretary
Jan.18th, 1993
Copy to:
The General Director of the intelligence system/
The same purpose mentioned above that concerned your duties
Source |
So don't you go telling me there's no ties! |
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:42 pm |
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| Defiant wrote: | | JanewayIsHott wrote: | I am glad you all have so much information to support your topic that we have resorted to personally attacking Mark to get
a point across . |
You called me a racist. That is a personal attack, and I will have no more of it. |
Where did I call you a rascist?
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