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Superman
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 06 Dec 2003
Posts: 10220
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 Fri Dec 24, 2004 3:23 pm |
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And how many crimes do CCTV prevent? None. Goose egg! Zero!
Oh sure, they may aid the police AFTER the fact. But they don't PREVENT crime or deal with crime AS IT HAPPENS. Personally, I'd like to see more officers on the streets than CCTV.
I am anti-crime. I have nothing to hide. I know it doesn't sound modest but I consider myself a decent person. But the government is there to serve me and others, they shouldn't automatically know everything about people.
Like I said before, ID cards will NOT prevent terrorism. Major criminals will not be put off by them.
My main concern is bureaucracy. When has a government ever successfully implemented anything on a national scale? Look at what happens every time they install a new computer system for the many Civil Service departments in this country? There's a problem nine times out of ten. Can they really implement an ID system without cocking up? I doubt it.
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Kyre
Commodore
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 1263
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| Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:19 pm |
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CCTV cameras do indeed help deal with crime when it happens. I've seen many a television show about crime, Street Crime UK being a prime example, where CCTV operators have informed police about crimes as they are happening.
On the other hand, if someone were to mug someone else in a street with no cameras, what is going to help solve the crime quicker; a policeman who in all probability wasn't there at the time, or a CCTV camera?
I'll give you a few minutes for that one, although you'll know the answer before finishing this sentence.
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:27 pm |
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I'm not as concerned about CCTV cameras as I would be about ID cards. ID cards are meant to track your identity, and every action you do. CCTV cameras make stores and businesses safer.
For example, my school just had what you could call CCTV cameras installed because of an increase in vandalism. However, no one is monitoring them 24/7, and only the principal or vice-principal have access to the videotapes.
I agree, Starfleet Dentist, that the bureaucracy would wring any potential value from these ID cards.
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Superman
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 06 Dec 2003
Posts: 10220
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| Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:17 pm |
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| Kyre wrote: | CCTV cameras do indeed help deal with crime when it happens. I've seen many a television show about crime, Street Crime UK being a prime example, where CCTV operators have informed police about crimes as they are happening.
On the other hand, if someone were to mug someone else in a street with no cameras, what is going to help solve the crime quicker; a policeman who in all probability wasn't there at the time, or a CCTV camera?
I'll give you a few minutes for that one, although you'll know the answer before finishing this sentence. |
^Don't assume that I am going to agree with you, please.
There may well be areas where CCTV is being used effectively. Yes, I'm sure CCTV operators have informed police about crimes as they are happening.
I just have to question whether the enormous cost of CCTV cameras can be justified. Crime certainly hasn't gone down in my area, we seem to have more and more cameras but less patrol officers.
The police can't be everywhere at once, I know. But I find a police presence reassuring and I know many others do, particularly areas where there are a lot of policemen on foot, on bikes and in cars. That is where the money should be going, more patrol officers and not cameras. Just my opinion so feel free to disagree.
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:45 pm |
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The cameras don't necessarily reduce crime, but when a crime does happen I think it might be easier to prosecute if you have video evidence that the person committed a crime.
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Kyre
Commodore
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 1263
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| Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:58 pm |
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It's like saying DNA evidence is worthless because you can only catch someone after they've cut themselves climbing over your barbed wire fence.
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Superman
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 06 Dec 2003
Posts: 10220
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| Fri Dec 24, 2004 8:02 pm |
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| Kyre wrote: | | It's like saying DNA evidence is worthless because you can only catch someone after they've cut themselves climbing over your barbed wire fence. |
Good point but there is a difference, I think, between DNA evidence (which is good) and expensive CCTV cameras.
Anyway, I don't know what time zone some of you are in but Merry Christmas to you all. 
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D_Star
Lieutenant
Joined: 09 Oct 2004
Posts: 151
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| Sat Dec 25, 2004 11:11 pm Re: ID cards plans pass first hurdle |
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| Jeremy wrote: | | ...they could increase discrimination... |
How?
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D_Star
Lieutenant
Joined: 09 Oct 2004
Posts: 151
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| Sat Dec 25, 2004 11:13 pm |
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| Jeremy wrote: | | Imagine if the database that contained all the information needed crashed. What would happen then? |
That is a piss-take right?
You're having us right Jeremy?
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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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| Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:31 am Re: ID cards plans pass first hurdle |
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Actually no, I've seen government systems here crash before, why not again?
| D_Star wrote: | | Jeremy wrote: | | ...they could increase discrimination... |
How? |
If a card contains information about what race someone is then someone could find out from it. Generally it won't cause a huge increase because usually you can tell from looking at someone, but they might be not fully one rce, so be difficult to tell. I have a friend who is like that, and someone was racist to him.
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:46 am Re: ID cards plans pass first hurdle |
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| Jeremy wrote: | | Actually no, I've seen government systems here crash before, why not again?. |
The chances of that happening are not great, and if it did happen I'm sure they would have backup databases to prevent extreme chaos. However, I am worried that someone could crack into the database. If everything about us is stored in a computer, then a malicious cracker could get in there and change . . . everything. According to my ID card, I could suddenly be Patrick McDugan, a 50-year-old middle-aged man with pancreatic cancer! They could change it so the biometric data on record does not match, for example, the actual fingerprints on my hand.
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D_Star
Lieutenant
Joined: 09 Oct 2004
Posts: 151
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| Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:22 am Re: ID cards plans pass first hurdle |
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| Jeremy wrote: | Actually no, I've seen government systems here crash before, why not again?
| D_Star wrote: | | Jeremy wrote: | | ...they could increase discrimination... |
How? |
If a card contains information about what race someone is then someone could find out from it. Generally it won't cause a huge increase because usually you can tell from looking at someone, but they might be not fully one rce, so be difficult to tell. I have a friend who is like that, and someone was racist to him. |
Discrimination from whom?
This is about filtering out illegal immigrants, the 9/11 hijackers used legitimate Driver's licences. Would you be against the advancement of improved passports?
A national id is already in place, they are called passports. In the Eu they already have standardized Driver's licences. So what is the harm in this?
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Tue Dec 28, 2004 2:23 am Re: ID cards plans pass first hurdle |
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| D_Star wrote: | This is about filtering out illegal immigrants, the 9/11 hijackers used legitimate Driver's licences. Would you be against the advancement of improved passports?
A national id is already in place, they are called passports. In the Eu they already have standardized Driver's licences. So what is the harm in this? |
There needs to be a line drawn, in relation to our privacy, and I think that biometric ID cards with complete sets of data accessible to anyone with access to the government crosses such a line. It is an infeasible idea that gives people too much knowledge--and therefore power--about the us.
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D_Star
Lieutenant
Joined: 09 Oct 2004
Posts: 151
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| Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:05 pm |
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Freedom always comes with a price.
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Tue Dec 28, 2004 2:55 pm |
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And in this case, I think that the price is too high and we will not get enough "bang for our buck".
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Ksim3000
Rear Admiral
Joined: 27 Mar 2002
Posts: 4952
Location: United Kingdom
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| Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:31 pm |
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I, myself, am against The Indentity Cards. Terrible if we resort to using them.
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D_Star
Lieutenant
Joined: 09 Oct 2004
Posts: 151
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| Wed Dec 29, 2004 8:33 am |
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| Hitchhiker wrote: | | And in this case, I think that the price is too high and we will not get enough "bang for our buck". |
How is it too high?
Where did you hear that all sorts of info would be on the ID's as well?
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:06 pm |
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I don't know what exactly would be on these ID cards. My information is third-hand, through the news article posted by Jeremy which pertains to Britain, not Canada anyway. But I dislike the concept because, as I've stated in earlier posts, it would cost a lot of money to implement the entire project, and I think the entire project would be ruined by the bureaucratic and corrupt nature of our governments.
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Seven of Nine
Sammie's Mammy
Joined: 16 Jun 2001
Posts: 7871
Location: North East England
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| Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:44 am |
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Currently, having a form of ID is voluntary (I don't drive, don't leave the country, so I have no ID). I'm thinking about things like what if your employer got hold of your medical records? There's quite a lot of things in mine I wouldn't like to be made public. It would be very easy with a national database with all this information on it.
Winston Churchill got rid of ID cards in the 1950s, because he knew then that they didn't work and imposed too much on our freedoms. Why should we trust a government (who can't even keep simple large databases running properly) with all of our details, which would allow people without proper access getting hold of things they shouldn't?
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