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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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 Thu Dec 23, 2004 8:48 pm |
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| Defiant wrote: | | 18 is good, but perhaps a little unrealistic. 16 is more applicable for todays society, but it honestly should not be under 16. |
What---have we...agreed!  
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Defiant
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 04 Jul 2001
Posts: 15946
Location: Oregon City, OR
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| Thu Dec 23, 2004 8:50 pm |
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Yeah, but like hell ill agree with you on anything else.
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Five - seveN
Rear Admiral
Joined: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 3567
Location: Shadow Moon
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| Fri Dec 24, 2004 7:36 am |
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| lionhead wrote: | | Exalya wrote: | | It doesn't work perfectly, but there's a law against murder, too, and people still do it. It's still a deterrant, and that can prevent at least some instances of it, and promotes and idea that it is not a good idea. RM's right. Twelve-year-olds and the like CANNOT make thier own decisions in this case. It's too easy for kids that age to think that it doesn't matter, and it'll all turn out fine, or they won't suffer for it. That is just wrong. |
here is a very big diffrence between the law against murder and the law against sex.
How can you punish two 12 year olds who had sex?
I don't encourage it, i just don't think you can stop or even slow it down with a law. You are going too have too go after it personally. You can't expect that your 12 year old daughter or son isn't going too have sex because there is a law for it.
You can't expect someone not too kill people eighter but the difference is that its much harder too get the courage kill someone then too have sex when you are 12. When you go as far as killing someone there is something wrong with you in general.
Plus against murder there stands a penalty that keeps you from doing it as well, but with Sex its totally different. |
That's my point. How would you enforce the law?
And also, sex is after all a part of love. You can't just prohibit something like that. I mean, having the government (lawmakers) judge if you may have sex seems ridiculous to me.
RM, Exalya and Founder, you have a good point too, though. But in secular Holland, 12-year old people (except those who are religious, maybe,  ), at least know what a condom is, and what it is for.
I mean to point out that secularity has its pros; namely that things like sex aren't so secret-ish and all. This means people know a lot more at a younger age; some of those things might be bad, but it's mostly good. Like some knowledge about sexual deseases and so.
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:33 am |
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You can know about sex without having it. I came from a HIGHLY religious family, and the subject has never been closed or uncomfortable, and I knew about it from a very young age. A little religion and morals don't have to make it secretish, and I personally believe that it made it seem like more of a natural occurrence than anything. Secularism isn't the only way to achieve an understanding of things like that. Twelve-year-olds knowing about condomns...aigh, I guess I did at that age, too, but I didn't EVER consider that I'd use one any time soon, I only knew because I was curious what the word meant.
And, though sex is a part of love, how do you expect children to know what love is? (In a partnership sense) At twelve, they don't. I'll guarentee it. (Okay, there might be exceptions, but come on) They are NOT going to meet long-lasting partners at 12, and there is no reason whatsoever for children of that age to have sex, or even believe that it would be okay if they were to do so. Heck, let's let 'em drink, drive, and get married for all it's worth. You'd already be allowing them to make one of the biggest decisions available.
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Fri Dec 24, 2004 7:24 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | It seems pretty useless to makes laws about something like sex. You can do it all the time, and nobody would actually find out, and you're not hurting anybody but yourself. I personally don't see why they don't make the law 16 here in the US. You can drive at 16, taking the chance of killing yourself and others. But you can't have sex, where you'd only be harming yourself.... Kinda silly. |
You wouldn't be harming yourself if you get a girl pregnant. You wouldn't be harming yourself if you passed on an STD. |
If you have sex, you both know the risks, so therefore it's your own fault.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Fri Dec 24, 2004 7:26 pm |
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The point we're trying to get across is 12 year olds don't understand the repurcussions. They don't know the risks. You can say "Oh but they have sex ed! They do know the risks." No they don't. Its one thing to learn something its another to understand it. Kids that age treat many things like a joke. Including sex.
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Fri Dec 24, 2004 8:48 pm |
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yes but that can go both ways. I know plenty of Adults and college students that don't Understand sex yet.
you can never truely understand something like sex. It's a physical impossiblity.
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:23 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | The point we're trying to get across is 12 year olds don't understand the repurcussions. They don't know the risks. You can say "Oh but they have sex ed! They do know the risks." No they don't. Its one thing to learn something its another to understand it. Kids that age treat many things like a joke. Including sex. |
I agree that 12 year olds shouldn't have sex. I'm still talking about the 16 year old thing,
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:47 pm |
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Uh-huh, I also agree that most don't have the knowledge and maturity to make such decisions. But making such acts criminal by preventing them by law wouldn't do much, and might just increase the 'forbidden fruit' angle.
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Five - seveN
Rear Admiral
Joined: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 3567
Location: Shadow Moon
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| Sat Dec 25, 2004 1:04 pm |
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| Exalya wrote: | | You can know about sex without having it. I came from a HIGHLY religious family, and the subject has never been closed or uncomfortable, and I knew about it from a very young age. A little religion and morals don't have to make it secretish, and I personally believe that it made it seem like more of a natural occurrence than anything. Secularism isn't the only way to achieve an understanding of things like that. Twelve-year-olds knowing about condomns...aigh, I guess I did at that age, too, but I didn't EVER consider that I'd use one any time soon, I only knew because I was curious what the word meant. |
Well, okay. I (of course) don't know what's it like over there in America, but here in Holland most religious kids (especially those who had it forced upon them by their parents) wouldn't know.
| Exalya wrote: | | And, though sex is a part of love, how do you expect children to know what love is? (In a partnership sense) At twelve, they don't. I'll guarentee it. (Okay, there might be exceptions, but come on) They are NOT going to meet long-lasting partners at 12, and there is no reason whatsoever for children of that age to have sex, or even believe that it would be okay if they were to do so. |
Wrong! I actually know a couple who got together when they were 12, and later on, they got married. They're still together now.  (Yes, I realize that is an exception)
| Exalya wrote: | | Heck, let's let 'em drink, drive, and get married for all it's worth. You'd already be allowing them to make one of the biggest decisions available. |
Drinking and driving are obviously not to be compared to sex, 
Altogether, this is just a very difficult subject, IMO. I don't think it's a good thing to have sex when 12 years old. For most 12-year olds, that is. Problem is, there is so much difference in kids of that age. Some are still really a kid, some already understand it all; love, sex, and the risks of those.
However, I simply am against a law prohibiting sex at a certain age (unless it's pedophilia of course). Because of the differences I noted above, but also because I think you can't tell someone that he/she (it's most likely the latter though, ) can't have sex. I simply think that is ridiculous. Just as if you tell someone they can't eat chocolate when they're under 18.
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Dirt
Exercise Boy
Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 2086
Location: a tree
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| Sat Dec 25, 2004 1:40 pm |
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Little note on the subject; I read somewhere that over here (netherlands) the average age to have sex is 17.3
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Sun Dec 26, 2004 1:10 am |
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You bunch of sinners!
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Sun Dec 26, 2004 6:00 am |
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| Five - seveN wrote: |
However, I simply am against a law prohibiting sex at a certain age (unless it's pedophilia of course). Because of the differences I noted above, but also because I think you can't tell someone that he/she (it's most likely the latter though, ) can't have sex. I simply think that is ridiculous. Just as if you tell someone they can't eat chocolate when they're under 18. |
Yes, well. You are partially thinking like i do.
I do think there must be a law considdering Kids having sex with diffrent ages(like pedophilians) Becasue thats the thing that is wrong. Its a good thing that Sex for minors is forbidden by the law because that stops the perverts or at least punishes them. However with the same age it cannot be forbidden.
However, you can TELL a kid not too have sex untill she/he is 18. If its going too happen thats up too the person. Just explain why not and keep friends with this person. Thats the only way too stop it, not by law.
-------signature-------
Never explain comedy or satire or the ironic comment. Those who get it, get it. Those who don't, never will. -Michael Moore
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Cathexis
The Angel of Avalon
Joined: 26 Dec 2001
Posts: 5901
Location: ~~ Where Dreams Have No End�
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| Sun Dec 26, 2004 6:21 am |
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Wow....now I can see we all jus' have too much time on our hands...
How can you think so much? Don't you get the WORST migraines? I know I do....too much education or summat like that
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Sun Dec 26, 2004 6:26 am |
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I never had a migrain.....Never intend too get one eighter..... i just like to think. But i have too admit, sometimes a just want too stop thinking and do something fun.....
-------signature-------
Never explain comedy or satire or the ironic comment. Those who get it, get it. Those who don't, never will. -Michael Moore
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Sun Dec 26, 2004 1:31 pm |
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| Five - seveN wrote: | | Exalya wrote: | | You can know about sex without having it. I came from a HIGHLY religious family, and the subject has never been closed or uncomfortable, and I knew about it from a very young age. A little religion and morals don't have to make it secretish, and I personally believe that it made it seem like more of a natural occurrence than anything. Secularism isn't the only way to achieve an understanding of things like that. Twelve-year-olds knowing about condomns...aigh, I guess I did at that age, too, but I didn't EVER consider that I'd use one any time soon, I only knew because I was curious what the word meant. |
Well, okay. I (of course) don't know what's it like over there in America, but here in Holland most religious kids (especially those who had it forced upon them by their parents) wouldn't know.
| Exalya wrote: | | And, though sex is a part of love, how do you expect children to know what love is? (In a partnership sense) At twelve, they don't. I'll guarentee it. (Okay, there might be exceptions, but come on) They are NOT going to meet long-lasting partners at 12, and there is no reason whatsoever for children of that age to have sex, or even believe that it would be okay if they were to do so. |
Wrong! I actually know a couple who got together when they were 12, and later on, they got married. They're still together now. (Yes, I realize that is an exception)
I mentioned exceptions. Most kids are still kids at 12 years old. How many ex-boy/girlfriends do most 18-year-olds have by the time they get out of highschool? A lot. Every freshman I've been friends with so far has had at least one or two "ex's." That woulda' been great if they'd all had sex...right, no, it wouldn't.
| Exalya wrote: | | Heck, let's let 'em drink, drive, and get married for all it's worth. You'd already be allowing them to make one of the biggest decisions available. |
Drinking and driving are obviously not to be compared to sex,
Altogether, this is just a very difficult subject, IMO. I don't think it's a good thing to have sex when 12 years old. For most 12-year olds, that is. Problem is, there is so much difference in kids of that age. Some are still really a kid, some already understand it all; love, sex, and the risks of those.
I don't see it as difficult, and I'm shocked anyone does. Twelve-year-old children. SEX. Legally, and accepted. I've never concieved of such an idea! Usually, I can see some logic to the other side, but I'm having a really hard time finding any to this argument. Does no one want limits on their children any more? I suppose they don't. They are CHILDREN. Twelve-year-old girls aren't even fully developed yet most of the time! And certainly not the boys. I simply don't get it. I understood a lot at 12, but I had a lot of limits placed on me. I wouldn't have ever contemplated sex. Kids that age should be enjoying not be an adult yet, not thinking about whether or not they want to participate in innercourse.
However, I simply am against a law prohibiting sex at a certain age (unless it's pedophilia of course). Because of the differences I noted above, but also because I think you can't tell someone that he/she (it's most likely the latter though, ) can't have sex. I simply think that is ridiculous. Just as if you tell someone they can't eat chocolate when they're under 18.
If and when I have children, you'll BET I would tell them they can't have sex that young. The next generation should be free from limits in some minds, I suppose. It's the degeneration of the society. Twelve-year-olds having sex with other twelve-year-olds...disgusting. |
And by now, I've argued everything there is in my head, so I bid you good day, and wait until the argument turns to something else. *tips hat and walks off*
-------signature-------
Not the doctor... yet
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sun Dec 26, 2004 8:05 pm |
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Exalya's right, you know. And you ALL know it!
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Dirt
Exercise Boy
Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 2086
Location: a tree
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| Sun Dec 26, 2004 9:49 pm |
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Lots of people have sex before marriage and lots of people that don't end up getting married and divorce later, or have an affair; thus having multiple sexual partners. But yes, you can't defend it morally to have sex at 12 but it's human behaviour to have a sex drive and it's also human to make mistakes or do ''wrong" things. And you can make as many laws as you want on it, but it won't help one bit. Just because the majority here is a bunch of geeks (including me!) who don't go out and have sex doesn't mean you're any better.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Mon Dec 27, 2004 2:05 am |
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I think both sides are...confused. I understand what people opposite of RM, Exayla, and I are trying to say. Banning sex is pointless. It won't stop kids from having sex and as HH said, it may even make it more...desirable to do it. The thrill of doing what is forbidden is hard for some to resist. Of course the ban for adults to have sex with kids should stay. I agree that banning kids from having sex won't change anything and in fact may lead to more of it. So it should be left the way it is. Our grief that it is being allowed at the said ages. In other words your telling the kids its ok. We shouldn't exactly say its ok either. Just...teach kids the risks. Thats all we can do and let them decide what to do.
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:31 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | I think both sides are...confused. I understand what people opposite of RM, Exayla, and I are trying to say. Banning sex is pointless. It won't stop kids from having sex and as HH said, it may even make it more...desirable to do it. The thrill of doing what is forbidden is hard for some to resist. Of course the ban for adults to have sex with kids should stay. I agree that banning kids from having sex won't change anything and in fact may lead to more of it. So it should be left the way it is. Our grief that it is being allowed at the said ages. In other words your telling the kids its ok. We shouldn't exactly say its ok either. Just...teach kids the risks. Thats all we can do and let them decide what to do. |
Voil�
-------signature-------
Never explain comedy or satire or the ironic comment. Those who get it, get it. Those who don't, never will. -Michael Moore
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:02 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | I think both sides are...confused. I understand what people opposite of RM, Exayla, and I are trying to say. Banning sex is pointless. It won't stop kids from having sex and as HH said, it may even make it more...desirable to do it. The thrill of doing what is forbidden is hard for some to resist. Of course the ban for adults to have sex with kids should stay. I agree that banning kids from having sex won't change anything and in fact may lead to more of it. So it should be left the way it is. Our grief that it is being allowed at the said ages. In other words your telling the kids its ok. We shouldn't exactly say its ok either. Just...teach kids the risks. Thats all we can do and let them decide what to do. |
Keep the law, and if they can't be caught, then so be it. Otherwise, that encourages sex amongst younger people.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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TrekkieMage
Office Junkie
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 5335
Location: Hiding
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| Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:27 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | I think both sides are...confused. I understand what people opposite of RM, Exayla, and I are trying to say. Banning sex is pointless. It won't stop kids from having sex and as HH said, it may even make it more...desirable to do it. The thrill of doing what is forbidden is hard for some to resist. Of course the ban for adults to have sex with kids should stay. I agree that banning kids from having sex won't change anything and in fact may lead to more of it. So it should be left the way it is. Our grief that it is being allowed at the said ages. In other words your telling the kids its ok. We shouldn't exactly say its ok either. Just...teach kids the risks. Thats all we can do and let them decide what to do. |
Keep the law, and if they can't be caught, then so be it. Otherwise, that encourages sex amongst younger people. |
I agree Founder.
RM: speaking as a minor and as a student in public schools, I totally disagree. I was lucky enough to have a health teacher that held the same mindset as Founder on this particular issue, and I think all of the kids in the class have been increadibly fortunate because of that.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:27 pm |
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| TrekkieMage wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | I think both sides are...confused. I understand what people opposite of RM, Exayla, and I are trying to say. Banning sex is pointless. It won't stop kids from having sex and as HH said, it may even make it more...desirable to do it. The thrill of doing what is forbidden is hard for some to resist. Of course the ban for adults to have sex with kids should stay. I agree that banning kids from having sex won't change anything and in fact may lead to more of it. So it should be left the way it is. Our grief that it is being allowed at the said ages. In other words your telling the kids its ok. We shouldn't exactly say its ok either. Just...teach kids the risks. Thats all we can do and let them decide what to do. |
Keep the law, and if they can't be caught, then so be it. Otherwise, that encourages sex amongst younger people. |
I agree Founder.
RM: speaking as a minor and as a student in public schools, I totally disagree. I was lucky enough to have a health teacher that held the same mindset as Founder on this particular issue, and I think all of the kids in the class have been increadibly fortunate because of that. |
Frankly, I don't care.
Am I a minor? Yes.
Am I in a public school? Yes.
Do I disagree with you? Yes.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Mon Dec 27, 2004 4:33 pm |
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Frankly you don't care?
She's responding to you, what else do you want on a public forum? Please have more respect.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Dec 27, 2004 4:37 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | Frankly you don't care?
She's responding to you, what else do you want on a public forum? Please have more respect. |
You're right. I'm just really angry this morning. I apologize. My statement meant that I don't care that that person is a minor and stuff, but I'm sorry. 
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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