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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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 Mon Dec 20, 2004 6:48 pm ID cards plans pass first hurdle |
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| BBC News wrote: | Mr Clarke will not "pause" on the identity card scheme.
An attempt to derail the government's controversial plans for identity cards has failed in the House of Commons.
In the first Commons vote on the scheme, MPs voted by 385 votes to 93 in favour of the scheme.
New Home Secretary Charles Clarke has dismissed fears of a "Big Brother" state but some Labour MPs still rebelled against the plans.
The Lib Dems opposed the cards, as did some Tory MPs who defied their leadership's support for the project.
Now MPs have voted to give the bill a second reading, it will then go to detailed debate in the Commons before being examined by the House of Lords.
Former Tory Cabinet minister Douglas Hogg's call for the bill to be rejected was defeated by 306 votes to 93 in a separate vote.
The figures suggest several Conservative and Labour MPs abstained.
Ministers say the cards would help prevent terrorism, organised crime and the "near slave labour" caused by illegal people trafficking.
Opponents argue ID cards are expensive and have not prevented attacks elsewhere, including the Madrid rail bombing.
The first cards would be issued in 2008 along with biometric passports, containing details such as fingerprints or iris scans.
Ministers have suggested Parliament could decide in 2011 or 2012 whether to make it compulsory for everybody to own, but not to carry, the cards.
It would cost an estimated �415m a year to run a biometric passport scheme - and another �85m for ID cards.
In his first real test since replacing David Blunkett, Mr Clarke told MPs: "There is an entirely false claim that ID cards that will erode our civil liberties, will revisit 1984, will usher in a Big Brother society or establish some kind of totalitarian police state."
When repeatedly pressed on how the scheme would help police if people did not have to carry the cards, Mr Clarke said officers believed it would make their job easier.
"It sounds good but the practise is we will all have to pay a lot of money to have them."
Matthew Taylor
Lib Dem chairman
Conservative leader Michael Howard last week said his shadow cabinet had decided to back ID cards but admitted it was "not an easy issue".
Shadow home secretary David Davis said the Tories backed the principle of the scheme but wanted the details examined by a special committee.
Former Tory frontbencher Bill Cash said there was still "very deep" disquiet among senior Tories.
He brandished a copy of George Orwell's 1984 as he told MPs the plans would bring a "sea change" in the relationship between state and citizens.
And Labour backbencher Neil Gerrard claimed it was "almost inevitable" people would eventually be forced to carry the cards.
Lib Dem spokesman Mark Oaten warned: "This is about a change in society where if you look like an illegal immigrant or a terrorist you can be stopped...
"Where you will have to turn up to centres to have your fingerprint or your iris scanned, where if you visit your GP or accident and emergency department you will have to put in a scan and prove who you are." |
I am against the ID cards. They will not stop a serious terrorist attack, they could increase discrimination and also will cost a lot to implament and then run.
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Superman
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 06 Dec 2003
Posts: 10220
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| Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:26 pm |
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I am against ID cards too. And I have nothing to hide. Supporters of ID cards say, "If you have nothing to hide, what is the problem?"
The problem is that I value my privacy. The problem is that I wouldn't be too crazy about carrying a card which carries so much information - believe me, the ID cards they propose would NOT be bits of card with your name, date of birth and address on, they propose a lot more information than that.
My questions are as follows:
1.) Who would have access to the information on your ID card?
2.) Who could ask to look at your ID card? Just a policeman or anyone else. If you didn't happen to have it on you, would there be a penalty?
3.) Would this ID card be forgery-proof? (I think not, NOTHING is forgery proof)
Like I said, I have nothing to hide. But I wonder whether there isn't a privacy issue here.
Also...
ID Cards will NOT stop determined terrorists.
ID Cards will NOT stop major criminals.
ID Cards WILL, most likely, create a new source of income for forgers.
Besides, I have a passport which contains some basic information on me. I filled in all the forms to get one. Passports are not immune to forgery but 95% of passports would be genuine. A passport can prove who I am.
And, even if I was in favour of ID cards, why the hell should we have to pay for them? With the amount of taxes (and stealth taxes) people pay in this country (many of which are wasted), I can't see why people should have to fork out money for an ID card.
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Superman
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 06 Dec 2003
Posts: 10220
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| Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:28 pm |
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One more point. After some of the shambles I've seen over years (failed governmental department computer systems, Child Support and the like), I wonder if ANY government could implement an ID card scheme without screwing it up someway.
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Kyre
Commodore
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 1263
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| Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:23 pm |
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A third of terrorist activities in the UK use forged identifications.
I'm for ID cards. Why should anyone be against them? It's not like they'll let loose that you bought a dirty magazine the week before.
At least, I hope not.
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:04 pm |
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| Starfleet Dentist wrote: | I am against ID cards too. And I have nothing to hide. Supporters of ID cards say, "If you have nothing to hide, what is the problem?"
The problem is that I value my privacy. The problem is that I wouldn't be too crazy about carrying a card which carries so much information - believe me, the ID cards they propose would NOT be bits of card with your name, date of birth and address on, they propose a lot more information than that. |
Exactly. It's the principle of the thing: first they issue ID cards, but it is a slippery slope from there. To what would it lead next?
I find the idea unfeasible and scary. Like the Verichip I mentioned a few months ago, I think that the possible benefits such as medical support (Canada's healthcare system is a mess anyway) are overshadowed by the way this system could be abused.
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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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| Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:33 am |
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Imagine if the database that contained all the information needed crashed. What would happen then? People presumably wouldn't be able to go on holiday, buy things and so on. It would create chaos.
ID cards never stopped terrorism in Spain, as shown with the Madrid Bombings. Another problem is the price in implementing it. That is a lot of money, which could be better spent on education or the NHS. I also like my freedom that I will not have all my information stored on a card that can be accessed. It could also increase racism because people would know if someone is from an ethnic minority.
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:18 am |
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Yeah. For example, prospective employers are not allowed to, either in an interview or via job application, ask an applicant's religion. With an ID card, presumably your religion would be encoded, which could lead to more discrimination--even if it wasn't encoded, I'm sure there'd be plenty of information that would be readily exploitable. At least with a SIN we've got the illusion of anonymity. 
P.S. I just love how Canada decided to call it the "Social Insurance Number" or SIN. Muwahahah! That's Canadian acronyms for you . . .
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Kyre
Commodore
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 1263
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| Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:20 pm |
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Clearly there'd be ongoing surveys into smaller companies, assuring that they were recruiting fairly. I say smaller companies, because large ones I've worked for have had clearly visible regulations (posters about race discrimination and the punishment for anyone caught).
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:29 am |
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Why or How does an ID card infringe on your privacy?
I'm all for civil rights, but issuing ID cards doesn't violate them at all. I think we should have a nationalized DNA database. It's not an infringment of privacy, its just a listing of people and a way to ID them.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:31 am |
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| LightningBoy wrote: | Why or How does an ID card infringe on your privacy?
I'm all for civil rights, but issuing ID cards doesn't violate them at all. |
I agree. I LIKE the idea of a National ID Card.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:23 am |
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| LightningBoy wrote: | | we should have a nationalized DNA database. |
A DNA database might actually be easier . . . get a sample of everyone at birth, put them in the database, and then people just have to touch a biometric scanner . . . DNA contains no social characteristics (although knowing the government, they'd probably want to set up a 'cross-referencing' database of those too  ). Redundant databases buried in multiple bunkers (like banks have) would help prevent damages from database crashes.
I don't like ID cards, the idea scares me and I admit it. I think they are a waste of time, money, and worst of all: they open the door to ultimate dysfunctional bureaucracy.
What if you're newly arrived in the country, and haven't received an ID card yet? No problem, bureaucracy gives you a 'temporary ID card'. Yeah, but what if you fall through the cracks? This sort of thing is serious . . . you could end up getting arrested for not having an ID card, with no way to prove who you are because you have no ID card.
The government would be in charge of these, which means the bureaucracy would be in charge of these. I like my free healthcare, but do I think it's excellent? No. I like the fact that the government gives me free stuff, but do I trust them not to mess up? Definitely not.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Wed Dec 22, 2004 4:19 pm |
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I agree with Hitchhiker completely. This sounds too....no.
I don't want an ID card. I don't want a chip implanted in me. I don't want a barcode burned into me. The DNA thing....MAYBE.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Dec 22, 2004 4:25 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | I agree with Hitchhiker completely. This sounds too....no.
I don't want an ID card. I don't want a chip implanted in me. I don't want a barcode burned into me. The DNA thing....MAYBE. |
The DNA thing is a good idea, but I think a REGULAR nationial ID Card would be GREAT. Not a chip or barcode, but a CARD that can NOT be duplicated, or at least it would be really hard to (like US currency).
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:22 pm |
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It's pretty easy to duplicate currency, just very expensive to do it well, and it is getting harder these days.
Yeah, but any form of ID is going to be extremely expensive, and the U.S. already has a huge deficit. I mean, I thought our Canadian deficit was large (Adrienne Clarkson must stop going on vacation) but you guys . . . whoa. Big spenders
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Seven of Nine
Sammie's Mammy
Joined: 16 Jun 2001
Posts: 7871
Location: North East England
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| Thu Dec 23, 2004 8:20 am |
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US currency is one of the easiest to duplicate 
EU currency looks like monopoly money
UK money is pretty hard, with all the new security features.
Anyway:
I'm against them. OK, an ID card is fine, but needing it to access healthcare, schools, work etc. isn't. What if the database crashes? Who will have access to the information? We're really heading into an 1984 scenario and it's scaring me.
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Thu Dec 23, 2004 8:26 am |
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| Seven of Nine wrote: | | What if the database crashes? |
Actually that is a remote possibility. Consider the amount of places that use gigantic databases already, such as banks, airports, even the government. . . but yeah, it could happen. They'd have backups, but it would still create chaos.
| Quote: | | Who will have access to the information? |
The government. Which, by extension, means basically anyone with money and/or power.
| Quote: | | We're really heading into an 1984 scenario and it's scaring me. |
I agree.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Dec 23, 2004 12:36 pm |
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| Seven of Nine wrote: | US currency is one of the easiest to duplicate
Actually, that's not true. I watched a movie on the US currency and banking system in my Business class and there are SO MANY security features that it would be VERY hard to duplicate.
EU currency looks like monopoly money
UK money is pretty hard, with all the new security features.
Anyway:
I'm against them. OK, an ID card is fine, but needing it to access healthcare, schools, work etc. isn't. What if the database crashes? Who will have access to the information? We're really heading into an 1984 scenario and it's scaring me. |
it's still necessary.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Thu Dec 23, 2004 12:39 pm |
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All your money is so . . . green . . .
I don't think it is necessary to create a mismanaged bureaucratic billion-dollar money pit that could be misused to fuel corruption and corporate greed. We tried that already, and look what it gave us: Toronto.
:;ducks::
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:14 pm |
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| Hitchhiker wrote: | All your money is so . . . green . . .
I don't think it is necessary to create a mismanaged bureaucratic billion-dollar money pit that could be misused to fuel corruption and corporate greed. We tried that already, and look what it gave us: Toronto.
:;ducks:: |
You better duck! 
::Swipes a punch, puts on TaeKwonDo uniform, including Blackbelt, in the blink of an eye. Gets ready to fight.::
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Kyre
Commodore
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 1263
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| Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:13 am |
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I think a 1984 scenario may be the natural conclusion to all our technological advances anyway.
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:28 am |
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| Kyre wrote: | | I think a 1984 scenario may be the natural conclusion to all our technological advances anyway. |
Perhaps so, but we can still do all we can to stop it. Everything is inevitable, but humans are stubborn creatures. After all, we're working so hard on achieving immortality . . .
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:45 am |
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Even in the interest of security, I wouldn't support such an idea...I didn't even like the idea of the DNA records that they wanted to start keeping in California this year. There is a line the government shouldn't cross...I see the line right about there.
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Kyre
Commodore
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 1263
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| Fri Dec 24, 2004 1:46 pm |
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| Hitchhiker wrote: | | Kyre wrote: | | I think a 1984 scenario may be the natural conclusion to all our technological advances anyway. |
Perhaps so, but we can still do all we can to stop it. Everything is inevitable, but humans are stubborn creatures. After all, we're working so hard on achieving immortality . . . |
By the way, do you know that every day, on average, you're captured by over a hundred different CCTV cameras? I'm sure it was over a hundred anyway.
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:06 pm |
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I don't like my pictures taken  But yeah, that isn't surprising. Although what exactly is "CCTV"?
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Kyre
Commodore
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 1263
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| Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:15 pm |
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Closed circuit television.
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