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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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 Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:19 pm Atheist Finds Proof of God? |
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Roy Abraham Varghese: The supreme science
Academics viewing the universe through a narrow scope should rethink assumptions
07:33 PM CST on Wednesday, December 15, 2004
By ROY ABRAHAM VARGHESE
Last week, The Associated Press broke the news that the most famous atheist in the academic world over the last half-century, Professor Antony Flew of England's University of Reading, now accepts the existence of God.
Mr. Flew's best-known plaint for atheism, "Theology and Falsification," was delivered in 1950 to the Socratic Club, chaired by none other than C.S. Lewis. This paper went on to become the most widely reprinted philosophical publication of the last five decades and set the agenda for modern atheism.
Now, in a remarkable reversal, Mr. Flew holds that the universe was brought into being by an infinite intelligence.
"What I think the DNA material has done is show that intelligence must have been involved in getting these extraordinarily diverse elements together," he said. "The enormous complexity by which the results were achieved look to me like the work of intelligence."
Given the conventional wisdom of some psychologists that people rarely, if ever, change their worldview after the age of 30, this radical new position adopted by an 81-year-old thinker may seem startling.
But Mr. Flew's change was consistent with his career-long principle of following the evidence where it led him. And his newfound theism is the product neither of a Damascus road experience nor of fresh philosophical arguments, but by his sustained analysis of scientific data.
Mr. Flew's conclusion is consistent with the actual beliefs of most modern scientific pioneers, from Albert Einstein to quantum physicists like Max Planck and Werner Heisenberg. In their view, the intelligence of the universe � its laws � points to an intelligence that has no limitation � "a superior mind," as Einstein put it.
Not a few of our men and women of letters, it would seem, have been looking for God in all the wrong places. Those who dismiss God as a product of psychological conditioning or pre-scientific myth-making have not come to terms with the essential assumptions underlying the scientific enterprise.
Science assumes that the universe follows laws, which leads to the question of how the laws of nature came into being. How does the electron know what to do? In A Brief History of Time, Stephen Hawking asks what breathes fire into the equations of science and gives a universe for them to describe. The answer to the question of why the universe exists, he concluded, would reveal to us "the mind of God."
Last May, I helped organize a New York University symposium on religion and science, with the participation of Mr. Flew and others. Our starting point was science's new knowledge that the universe's history is a story of quantum leaps of intelligence, the sudden yet systematic appearance of intrinsically intelligent systems arranged in an ascending order.
Many people assume that the intelligence in the universe somehow evolved out of nonintelligence, given chance and enough time, and in the case of living beings, through natural selection and random mutation. But even in the most hardheadedly materialistic scenario, intelligence and intelligent systems come fully formed from day one.
Matter came with all its ingenious, mathematically precise laws from the time it first appeared. Life came fully formed with the incredibly intelligent symbol processing of DNA, the astonishing phenomenon of protein-folding and the marvel of replication from its very first appearance. Language, the incarnation of conceptual thought with its inexplicable structure of syntax, symbols and semantics, appeared out of the blue, again with its essential infrastructure as is from day one.
The evidence we have shows unmistakably that there was no progressive, gradual evolution of nonintelligence into intelligence in any of the fundamental categories of energy, life or mind. Each one of the three had intrinsically intelligent structures from the time each first appeared. Each, it would seem, proceeds from an infinitely intelligent mind in a precise sequence.
We can, if we want, declare that there is no reason why there are reasonable laws, no explanation for the fact there are explanations, no logic underlying logical processes. But this is manifestly not the conclusion adopted by Einstein, Heisenberg and, most recently, Antony Flew.
Roy Abraham Varghese of Garland is the author of The Wonder of the World: A Journey from Modern Science to the Mind of God (Tyr Publishing). He helped organize presentations by Antony Flew in Dallas on two occasions. Readers may contact Mr. Varghese through tyrpublishing.com.
Online at: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/viewpoints/stories/121604dnedivarghese.583e5.html
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:44 am |
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Sweet irony. 
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Kyre
Commodore
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 1263
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| Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:51 am |
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Infinite intelligence does not necessarily mean God, otherwise they would have said it.
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:38 am |
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People just can't evolve and form by itself. Someone had to make us. Like God.
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Defiant
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 04 Jul 2001
Posts: 15946
Location: Oregon City, OR
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| Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:49 am |
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Thats up for debate.
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Fri Dec 17, 2004 8:24 am |
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| kmma wrote: | | People just can't evolve and form by itself. Someone had to make us. Like God. |
Actually, it is possible that the amino acids have randomly formed to create the specific DNA sequences that make up our genes.
However, it is extremely improbable considering our frame of reference. If you look at the universe as a frame of reference on the whole, however, you'll see that it isn't that improbable.
We got some help from Murphy's Law  (and I don't like the anthropic principle)
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superwoman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5742
Location: Sweden
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| Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:50 am |
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Ok... did I understood this correctly? The laws of physics... are god?
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
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Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:58 am |
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So a very old guy found out that DNA is very complex and because he can't figure it out he says its god's work....Yeah, right.
Of course DNA is more complex then our brain can handle, but that doesn't mean a more intelligent being created it. Why would it? Because we can't?
-------signature-------
Never explain comedy or satire or the ironic comment. Those who get it, get it. Those who don't, never will. -Michael Moore
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
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Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:06 am |
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God can. We sure didn't just pop up. Someone had to make us. And its no acid either like Hitcherhiker said. It is hard to underatand that we just formed on our own. Yeah right.
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Defiant
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 04 Jul 2001
Posts: 15946
Location: Oregon City, OR
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| Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:37 am |
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People have their opinions, and everyone has to respect everyone elses opinions too. No one is right, until it is proven, and nothing is proven. So be happy with what you believe, and leave it at that.
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
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| Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:46 am |
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You have a point but it will be proven one day and I won't say more right now.
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:21 pm |
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DNA is formed from amino acids with the pairing of two bases: adenine and thymine or cytosine and guanine. 
Perhaps it we were created by a consciousness beyond us, but then again, perhaps not.
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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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| Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:52 pm |
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| lionhead wrote: | So a very old guy found out that DNA is very complex and because he can't figure it out he says its god's work....Yeah, right.
Of course DNA is more complex then our brain can handle, but that doesn't mean a more intelligent being created it. Why would it? Because we can't? |
A rather smart old guy who has been against a God all his life and is an expert on the area basically. But then everyone has their own opinions.
| Kyre wrote: | | Infinite intelligence does not necessarily mean God, otherwise they would have said it. |
What is a God or gods then? I personally believe in one God, but in the thinking of other religions then a being with Infinte intellence would be counted as a God.
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Kyre
Commodore
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 1263
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| Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:19 pm |
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| Jeremy wrote: | | lionhead wrote: | So a very old guy found out that DNA is very complex and because he can't figure it out he says its god's work....Yeah, right.
Of course DNA is more complex then our brain can handle, but that doesn't mean a more intelligent being created it. Why would it? Because we can't? |
A rather smart old guy who has been against a God all his life and is an expert on the area basically. But then everyone has their own opinions.
| Kyre wrote: | | Infinite intelligence does not necessarily mean God, otherwise they would have said it. |
What is a God or gods then? I personally believe in one God, but in the thinking of other religions then a being with Infinte intellence would be counted as a God. |
I meant that it doesn't necessarily mean the Christian God.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:30 pm |
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| Kyre wrote: | | I meant that it doesn't necessarily mean the Christian God. |
I don't think anyone really implied it was the Christian God. Although im under the belief we all worship the same God.
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:46 pm |
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| Defiant wrote: | | People have their opinions, and everyone has to respect everyone elses opinions too. No one is right, until it is proven, and nothing is proven. So be happy with what you believe, and leave it at that. |
My point has too be proven some day. But i don't think anybody is going too agree that its just way too complex for us too understand anyway.
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Never explain comedy or satire or the ironic comment. Those who get it, get it. Those who don't, never will. -Michael Moore
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Fri Dec 17, 2004 8:19 pm |
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Indeed, I find that just explaining this away as the "magic" is rather defeatist, same with intelligent design.
There may be a Creator or Creators out there, but my opinion is that until I can prove that, there's no harm in continuing to dig smaller and smaller to the very basis of reality. Science is fun
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:57 am |
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| Hitchhiker wrote: | | kmma wrote: | | People just can't evolve and form by itself. Someone had to make us. Like God. |
Actually, it is possible that the amino acids have randomly formed to create the specific DNA sequences that make up our genes.
However, it is extremely improbable considering our frame of reference. If you look at the universe as a frame of reference on the whole, however, you'll see that it isn't that improbable.
We got some help from Murphy's Law (and I don't like the anthropic principle) |
So where do amino acids come from. Where does ANYTHING come from.
Something came from nothing, and that's the result of some higher force, a greater intellegence.
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Defiant
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 04 Jul 2001
Posts: 15946
Location: Oregon City, OR
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| Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:10 am |
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Not necessarily. You havent done any research/listening/reading about the big bang theory, aka the other side of your argument.
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:17 am |
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Big Bang theory my butt The big bang theory couldnot make us. Someone had to set everything into motion. We just don't pop out of nowhere. That is hard to believe. But hey who am I to judge lol
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Sat Dec 18, 2004 10:53 am |
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Obviously we can't provide a rational argument as to how the first matter and energy was created without resorting to using an intelligent force as the catalyst. However, just because that is our only 100% feasible option at the time doesn't mean that we should stop looking. We used to believe that the world was flat, or that the sun orbited the Earth. But because people did not explain it away as magic, and continued to try and understand these phenomena, that's why we are here today.
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Five - seveN
Rear Admiral
Joined: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 3567
Location: Shadow Moon
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| Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:56 pm |
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Ehhh... People... If there was a 'something', an intelligent being, needed to create the universe/set the big bang in motion, who or what created that 'something'? Or did that 'god' just appear, which is appearantly not possible for a galaxy? You confuse me.
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:51 pm |
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| Defiant wrote: | | Not necessarily. You havent done any research/listening/reading about the big bang theory, aka the other side of your argument. |
Ok, then what created the big bang?
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:52 pm |
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| Hitchhiker wrote: | | Obviously we can't provide a rational argument as to how the first matter and energy was created without resorting to using an intelligent force as the catalyst. However, just because that is our only 100% feasible option at the time doesn't mean that we should stop looking. We used to believe that the world was flat, or that the sun orbited the Earth. But because people did not explain it away as magic, and continued to try and understand these phenomena, that's why we are here today. |
I have nothing against science, but the more and more I learn, the more and more it re-affirms my faith.
As for where God comes from, I suggest that he exists on an alternate plane of existence, possibly the dimension of time. Where the understanding of reality is comepletely skewed from our understanding.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:11 pm |
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| Jeremy wrote: | | lionhead wrote: | So a very old guy found out that DNA is very complex and because he can't figure it out he says its god's work....Yeah, right.
Of course DNA is more complex then our brain can handle, but that doesn't mean a more intelligent being created it. Why would it? Because we can't? |
A rather smart old guy who has been against a God all his life and is an expert on the area basically. But then everyone has their own opinions.
| Kyre wrote: | | Infinite intelligence does not necessarily mean God, otherwise they would have said it. |
What is a God or gods then? I personally believe in one God, but in the thinking of other religions then a being with Infinte intellence would be counted as a God. |
Right. And I'm rather happy about this. It's great when an athiest sees the light. About the creation, etc, I believe God created the Big Bang, then guided the universe through its creation, and created evolution.
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