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Jeff Miller
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 22 Nov 2001
Posts: 23947
Location: Mental Ward for the Mentaly Unstable 6th floor, Saint John's 1615 Delaware Longview Washington 98632
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 Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:30 am Troops Put Tough Questions to Rumsfeld |
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Troops Put Tough Questions to Rumsfeld
December 08, 2004 9:41 AM EST
CAMP BUEHRING, Kuwait - Disgrunted U.S. soldiers complained to Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld on Wednesday about the lack of armor for their vehicles and long deployments, drawing a blunt retort from the Pentagon chief.
"You go to war with the Army you have," he said in a rare public airing of rank-and-file concerns among the troops.
In his prepared remarks earlier, Rumsfeld had urged the troops - mostly National Guard and Reserve soldiers - to discount critics of the war in Iraq and to help "win the test of wills" with the insurgents.
Some of soldiers, however, had criticisms of their own - not of the war itself but of how it is being fought.
Army Spc. Thomas Wilson, for example, of the 278th Regimental Combat Team that is comprised mainly of citizen soldiers of the Tennessee Army National Guard, asked Rumsfeld in a question-and-answer session why vehicle armor is still in short supply, nearly two years after the start of the war that ousted Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.
"Why do we soldiers have to dig through local landfills for pieces of scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass to uparmor our vehicles?" Wilson asked. A big cheer arose from the approximately 2,300 soldiers in the cavernous hangar who assembled to see and hear the secretary of defense.
Rumsfeld hesitated and asked Wilson to repeat his question.
"We do not have proper armored vehicles to carry with us north," Wilson said after asking again.
Rumsfeld replied that troops should make the best of the conditions they face and said the Army was pushing manufacturers of vehicle armor to produce it as fast as humanly possible.
And, the defense chief added, armor is not always a savior in the kind of combat U.S. troops face in Iraq, where the insurgents' weapon of choice is the roadside bomb, or improvised explosive device that has killed and maimed hundreds, if not thousands, of American troops since the summer of 2003.
"You can have all the armor in the world on a tank and it can (still) be blown up," Rumsfeld said.
Asked later about Wilson's complaint, the deputy commanding general of U.S. forces in Kuwait, Maj. Gen. Gary Speer, said in an interview that as far as he knows, every vehicle that is deploying to Iraq from Camp Buehring in Kuwait has at least "Level 3" armor. That means it at least has locally fabricated armor for its side panels, but not necessarily bulletproof windows or protection against explosions that penetrate the floorboard.
Speer said he was not aware that soldiers were searching landfills for scrap metal and used bulletproof glass.
During the question-and-answer session, another soldier complained that active-duty Army units sometimes get priority over the National Guard and Reserve units for the best equipment in Iraq.
"There's no way I can prove it, but I am told the Army is breaking its neck to see that there is not" discrimination against the National Guard and Reserve in terms of providing equipment, Rumsfeld said.
Yet another soldier asked, without putting it to Rumsfeld as a direct criticism, how much longer the Army will continue using its "stop loss" power to prevent soldiers from leaving the service who are otherwise eligible to retire or quit.
Rumsfeld said that this condition was simply a fact of life for soldiers at time of war.
"It's basically a sound principle, it's nothing new, it's been well understood" by soldiers, he said. "My guess is it will continue to be used as little as possible, but that it will continue to be used."
In his opening remarks, Rumsfeld stressed that soldiers who are heading to Iraq should not believe those who say the insurgents cannot be defeated or who otherwise doubt the will of the military to win.
"They say we can't prevail. I see that violence and say we must win," Rumsfeld said. |
Real peice of work this guy is. (Refering to Rumsfeld)
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| ~Tony Montana wrote: | | You know what you need people like me people for you to snub your nose at and point at saying there is a bad man. Well guess what This bad man is leaving. Say goodnight to the BAD MAN! |
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sun Dec 12, 2004 7:58 pm |
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Rumsfeld answered this well. But you know what? Two things:
1. A REPORTER told the troop the question to be asked.
2. Just a note that if it was a troop questioning a Democrat, say, oh, Hilary or Kerry, about perhaps intelligence funding, you would all be criticising the fact. I think it's a fine question and was answered well, though.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Sun Dec 12, 2004 10:43 pm |
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This isn't the first time this has come up though.
The military went to war under-equipt and undermanned. Everyone knows that.
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Curtis
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 29 Sep 2001
Posts: 14903
Location: Wisconsin
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| Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:31 pm |
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| Link, the Hero of Time wrote: | This isn't the first time this has come up though.
The military went to war under-equipt and undermanned. Everyone knows that. |
Everyone should know that, yes, but I am sure some people don't...I however do.
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Superman
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 06 Dec 2003
Posts: 10220
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| Tue Dec 14, 2004 6:25 pm |
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| Link, the Hero of Time wrote: | This isn't the first time this has come up though.
The military went to war under-equipt and undermanned. Everyone knows that. |
^People have said the same about the British military and, unfortunately, it is true. I would have guessed that the U.S. forces had everything they need, due to the budget for defence. So, it comes as a surprise to hear that, Link. It just goes to show how wrong one can be.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:17 pm |
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| Starfleet Dentist wrote: | | Link, the Hero of Time wrote: | This isn't the first time this has come up though.
The military went to war under-equipt and undermanned. Everyone knows that. |
^People have said the same about the British military and, unfortunately, it is true. I would have guessed that the U.S. forces had everything they need, due to the budget for defence. So, it comes as a surprise to hear that, Link. It just goes to show how wrong one can be. |
We weren't too much undermanned and under-equipt, but we were somewhat. But what we failed to plan well for was the aftermath.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Superman
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 06 Dec 2003
Posts: 10220
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| Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:01 pm |
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Can I go slightly off-topic, RM. I hear that the U.S. really looks after it's war veterans. Would you say that is true?
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:08 pm |
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| Starfleet Dentist wrote: | | Can I go slightly off-topic, RM. I hear that the U.S. really looks after it's war veterans. Would you say that is true? |
OH YES. As a matter of fact, a war veteran who's words were twisted in Michael Moore's film stated in FahrenHYPE 9/11 that he was "TREATED VERY WELL," unlike Moore insinuates.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Superman
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 06 Dec 2003
Posts: 10220
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| Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:10 pm |
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I see. I still haven't seen Farenhype, I hope it gets a UK release soon.
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Angeldust
The Mob Queen
Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 6498
Location: In your most wonderful, screwed up dreams. :P
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| Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:26 pm |
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I think that this is just fabulous! I loved every second of reading this article. And anyone who thinks that soldier was exaggerating needs to be shipped down to Iraq. It really is that way down there.
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:22 am |
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| Starfleet Dentist wrote: |
^People have said the same about the British military and, unfortunately, it is true. I would have guessed that the U.S. forces had everything they need, due to the budget for defence. So, it comes as a surprise to hear that, Link. It just goes to show how wrong one can be. |
It's unfortunetly true. Most of the defense budget goes to creating new military weaponry and paying the salaries of officials that sit back and do nothing. What's left for many soldiers are weapons, armor and vehicles that haven't been maintained well. Some vehicles are in such bad condition that one shot would shatter the bulletproof glass.
Most soldiers are stuck with second rate body armor that just covers the fron torso and back, nothing for their sides. I've been told stories from friends in the military about having someone shot in the side then having the bullet ricochet off the body armor numerous times insdie them then having it come out the other side.
It's not a pretty thing.
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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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| Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:17 am |
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No disrespect for your friend, but I find myself wondering at that. Body Armour doesn't deflect the bullet, the bullet is basically stopped in the armour. So how could it have bounced around inside it? I don't want to sound uncaring or anything, but I'm puzzled by that.
| Angeldust wrote: | | I think that this is just fabulous! I loved every second of reading this article. And anyone who thinks that soldier was exaggerating needs to be shipped down to Iraq. It really is that way down there. |
This may happen in some areas of Iraq, but don't make the generalisation that it is everywhere.
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:25 pm |
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True Body armor is ment to plain stop a bullet, but if fired from a high powered rifle... the effects are rather distrubing.
The armor will fail depending an where it's hit, what angle and the proximity of the shot.
If it doesn't stop the continual effect of the bullet is to keep moving due to it's spin. It's a one in a million shot but, the bullet will bounce off the armor when hit and cause a ricochet effect.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:24 pm |
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| Jeremy wrote: | No disrespect for your friend, but I find myself wondering at that. Body Armour doesn't deflect the bullet, the bullet is basically stopped in the armour. So how could it have bounced around inside it? I don't want to sound uncaring or anything, but I'm puzzled by that.
| Angeldust wrote: | | I think that this is just fabulous! I loved every second of reading this article. And anyone who thinks that soldier was exaggerating needs to be shipped down to Iraq. It really is that way down there. |
This may happen in some areas of Iraq, but don't make the generalisation that it is everywhere. |
Good point.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:55 pm |
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Link is right. Being a military wife I know a little. There's armor on the back and front and not on the sides. Which I think they should make them stronger . I will ask Charlie when he calls me to make sure we are right. Cause him being in the army he should know.
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Angeldust
The Mob Queen
Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 6498
Location: In your most wonderful, screwed up dreams. :P
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| Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:43 pm |
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| Quote: | | Quote: | Angeldust wrote:
I think that this is just fabulous! I loved every second of reading this article. And anyone who thinks that soldier was exaggerating needs to be shipped down to Iraq. It really is that way down there. |
This may happen in some areas of Iraq, but don't make the generalisation that it is everywhere. |
I apologize if it seemed that I was making a generalization. I can say that it was that way when I was down there, and if the soldiers say it still is, then I believe them.
Even if it is happening in just one place, that is one place too many.
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"You want to dance with the angels? Then embroider me with gold; and I will fly with the angels...and you can dance with me."
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