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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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 Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:32 am Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School |
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| Quote: | Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School
Wed Nov 24, 2004 04:12 PM ET
By Dan Whitcomb
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A California teacher has been barred by his school from giving students documents from American history that refer to God -- including the Declaration of Independence.
Steven Williams, a fifth-grade teacher at Stevens Creek School in the San Francisco Bay area suburb of Cupertino, sued for discrimination on Monday, claiming he had been singled out for censorship by principal Patricia Vidmar because he is a Christian.
"It's a fact of American history that our founders were religious men, and to hide this fact from young fifth-graders in the name of political correctness is outrageous and shameful," said Williams' attorney, Terry Thompson.
"Williams wants to teach his students the true history of our country," he said. "There is nothing in the Establishment Clause (of the U.S. Constitution) that prohibits a teacher from showing students the Declaration of Independence."
Vidmar could not be reached for comment on the lawsuit, which was filed on Monday in U.S. District Court in San Jose and claims violations of Williams rights to free speech under the First Amendment.
Phyllis Vogel, assistant superintendent for Cupertino Unified School District, said the lawsuit had been forwarded to a staff attorney. She declined to comment further.
Williams asserts in the lawsuit that since May he has been required to submit all of his lesson plans and supplemental handouts to Vidmar for approval, and that the principal will not permit him to use any that contain references to God or Christianity.
Among the materials she has rejected, according to Williams, are excerpts from the Declaration of Independence, George Washington's journal, John Adams' diary, Samuel Adams' "The Rights of the Colonists" and William Penn's "The Frame of Government of Pennsylvania."
"He hands out a lot of material and perhaps 5 to 10 percent refers to God and Christianity because that's what the founders wrote," said Thompson, a lawyer for the Alliance Defense Fund, which advocates for religious freedom. "The principal seems to be systematically censoring material that refers to Christianity and it is pure discrimination."
In June, the U.S. Supreme Court refused to hear the case of a California atheist who wanted the words "under God" struck from the Pledge of Allegiance as recited by school children. The appeals court in California had found that the phrase amounted to a violation of church and state separation.
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memyselfandI
Commodore
Joined: 25 Nov 2004
Posts: 1948
Location: Michigan
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| Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:03 am |
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This is totally outrageous. This is the constitution for crying out loud!!! If you don't belive it was created "under God" don't believe it! There too much other stuff in the constitution for someone to make a big deal about that. They may claim "free speech" but the same can be said for those of us Christians too, so really, it's a lose-lose situation, and pointless.
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Voyager`
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Aug 2001
Posts: 2579
Location: Iowa
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| Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:14 am |
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This is just stupidity seriously people comeon if you have a problem with the constitution maybe you should rethink everything about beign in america, without the constitution america would not be
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:21 am |
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Personally, I think widespread stupidity like this is what is dragging the U.S into the ground. It's the Declaration of Independance. The document the founding fathers wrote to seccede from England. From the will of a few traitors came the free land we have today. and yes I used the term traitors to describe them, because that is what they were seen as by loyalists. ((I also happened to see "National Treasure" so Cage's little schpeel still rings in my head))
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:30 am |
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*Slams head against the desk*
Did anyone besides Link even read the article. Sheeesh. Thank goodness you did Link...it is nice to know that some people actually read the articles before posting their thoughts about it .
*sighs*It is late...I am just going to tell myself yall were tired...
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:31 am |
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Make me want to not move to California at all. I hope Charlie never gets stationed there cause I am an American and I want the right to have God in schools for my kids.
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:29 am |
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Wow, thats a difficult article.... So if i undertsand correctly some teacher was teaching children that the Declaration of Independence and other stuff from American history where all Gods Will? And some dude didn't agree with that?
Sorry if i'm way off, i didn't really understand, could someone explain?
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Never explain comedy or satire or the ironic comment. Those who get it, get it. Those who don't, never will. -Michael Moore
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:07 am |
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It looks like some teacher does not believe in God and pitched a fit to have God removed. to take away our rights to believe in God in school the way I understand it.
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:34 am |
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This is just absurd here . . . it's not as if the teacher is trying to convert his students into Christians or something.
All of the documents the article mentioned are valid educational tools. We can't start restricting how you teach people just because a document uses a particular phrase that mentions a supreme being. We aren't being politically correct, because as we can see from this case, we're offending all those don't want the Declaration banned.
Next thing you'll know they'll ban Fahrenheit 451 or 1984 throughout the entire country because it contains material that could possibly "influence students to commit acts against authority", et cetera.
Oh, and what about Terms of Use? Will we be prohibited from putting an "Act of God" clause in those too? (I like reading those, they're fun.  )
I'm very much in favour of letting teachers teach what they want to teach, as long as it is of course fair and stays within the cirriculum. But this isn't even about freedom of teaching style, I'm just annoyed that they've banned the Declaration of Independence, and I'm not even American.
| lionhead wrote: |
Wow, thats a difficult article.... So if i undertsand correctly some teacher was teaching children that the Declaration of Independence and other stuff from American history where all Gods Will? And some dude didn't agree with that?
Sorry if i'm way off, i didn't really understand, could someone explain? |
No, the principal refused to let the teacher use any documents that refer to "God". This pretty much rules out any literature in existence, along with several historical documents of use, and probably several hundred perfectly good movies too.
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memyselfandI
Commodore
Joined: 25 Nov 2004
Posts: 1948
Location: Michigan
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| Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:09 am |
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I read the whole thing, and still think it's outrageous.
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:14 am |
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Teachers in my opinion should not have the right to teach kids what they want unless they have permission of the kids parents. Yes everybody has a right but teachers just can't say hey I don't believe in God therefore you can't either so there will be no God talk. This is America and it suppose to be free for all religions I thought. This is not an communist country, we are free.
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memyselfandI
Commodore
Joined: 25 Nov 2004
Posts: 1948
Location: Michigan
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| Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:22 am |
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The teacher wasn't teaching about God, he was teaching about the Constitution, and the Constitution happens to have God in it.
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Fri Nov 26, 2004 10:26 am |
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Still same principal, if I wanted my child to hear it in the constitution then a teacher dont have thr right to take it out and teach what he/she wants unless to talk to parents to let them know hey I am teaching this. That is not respectful to those who believe in God.
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memyselfandI
Commodore
Joined: 25 Nov 2004
Posts: 1948
Location: Michigan
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| Fri Nov 26, 2004 10:29 am |
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The teacher may have mentioned that the creators of the constitution were religious, but he wasn't telling the kids to believe in God!! It's important to have a knowledge of different beliefs, it makes the kids more accepting of those who are a little different from what they are.
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Captain Dappet
Forum Revolutionist
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 16756
Location: On my supersonic rocket ship.
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| Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:52 pm |
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| kmma wrote: | | Teachers in my opinion should not have the right to teach kids what they want unless they have permission of the kids parents. Yes everybody has a right but teachers just can't say hey I don't believe in God therefore you can't either so there will be no God talk. This is America and it suppose to be free for all religions I thought. This is not an communist country, we are free. |
I find that offensive, that you use Communist as a bad thing!
I think Religion should be allowed, of course. Outlawing God completely is just silly. Of course, school should not try to convert people, or make them think certain things. And personally, I wouldn't want God to be in any constitution or similar, but thats just me. I dont think you'd have to change it or nothing.
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Angeldust
The Mob Queen
Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 6498
Location: In your most wonderful, screwed up dreams. :P
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| Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:56 pm |
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I believe in the separation of church and state, but this has really gotten out of hand. It is our history that we are destroying now, just to accomodate some atheists. That kinda bugs me.
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"You want to dance with the angels? Then embroider me with gold; and I will fly with the angels...and you can dance with me."
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:09 pm |
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I like the way Michael Savage put it... (I think this is the 4th time I've used his stuff... *blinks*) Whether or NOT they like that God was major in the days this country was founded (Not only was, but is) it is our country's heritage. The bible and God are a part of this history of the U.S., certainly when speaking of the founding fathers. I don't care what they think of it, it's the way it was. The teacher should still have some measure of respect for history, or he shouldn't be teaching history at all.
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Not the doctor... yet
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:18 pm |
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I agree totally with you Exalya. He should not be teaching history if he does not believe in God. He was in the wrong to take away freedom in the class about that in my opinion of course.
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:18 pm |
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I'm guessing the next step of these people is to pull down the pictures of the U.S presidents for being religious. Then the American Flag because it was a symbol used by religious people.
Is it just me or is America getting dumber by the day?
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:20 pm |
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| kmma wrote: | | I agree totally with you Exalya. He should not be teaching history if he does not believe in God. He was in the wrong to take away freedom in the class about that in my opinion of course. |
...well, I didn't mean that atheists should not be history teachers. I've had good teachers who did not, as far as I know, believe in God, that taught the constitutional period. Even though they didn't believe in God, they taught it because it was history, and should be acknowledged as such, no matter what one's religion is.
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:27 pm |
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| kmma wrote: | | I agree totally with you Exalya. He should not be teaching history if he does not believe in God. He was in the wrong to take away freedom in the class about that in my opinion of course. |
Er . . . and I don't think you're reading the article correctly . . . the teacher does believe in God, he is a Christian, and he thinks that the principal is discriminating against him for this.
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Angeldust
The Mob Queen
Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 6498
Location: In your most wonderful, screwed up dreams. :P
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| Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:29 pm |
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Surprisingly, I am with Exalya on this one. Yes.
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"You want to dance with the angels? Then embroider me with gold; and I will fly with the angels...and you can dance with me."
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:11 pm |
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If he is really a christian then why did he want God out of Constition? Does not make any sense then oh well I am not gonna even go where I am going to say lol. I
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Angeldust
The Mob Queen
Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 6498
Location: In your most wonderful, screwed up dreams. :P
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| Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:13 pm |
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^possibly to cover his own butt. He probably didn't want to get accused of teaching religion in schools. I don't know.
-------signature-------
"You want to dance with the angels? Then embroider me with gold; and I will fly with the angels...and you can dance with me."
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:14 pm |
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| kmma wrote: | | If he is really a christian then why did he want God out of Constition? Does not make any sense then oh well I am not gonna even go where I am going to say lol. I |
He was the one who wanted to bring the Declaration of Independence in. The principal didn't allow him to use it because it contained references to God, and in fact has now required him to submit all his lesson plans to her for approval.
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