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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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 Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:08 am Battle rages in centre of Falluja |
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| BBC News wrote: | US marines have taken the mayor's office in central Falluja and say they now control 70% of the Iraqi city with rebels hemmed into a narrow strip.
Reporting from the mayoral compound, the BBC's Paul Wood says a battle is still raging in the city centre while US-led forces control the perimeter.
According to US estimates, hundreds of rebels were killed on Wednesday alone and at least one more marine died.
Relief groups say they are deeply worried about the fate of civilians.
The fighters are simply moving from street to street, attacking US troops where they can and allowing them through where they can't
Our correspondent said that on Wednesday morning no civilians could be seen on the streets, shops were shuttered and black smoke was rising all around.
Fadhil Badrani, a journalist in Falluja who reports for the BBC World Service in Arabic, compared the city to Kabul, the Afghan capital largely reduced to rubble after years of warfare.
One marine officer, Maj Francis Piccoli, said the rebels had been squeezed into a strip of the city bordering the main east-west road, which splits Falluja.
"There's going to be a movement today in those areas," he added.
Iraq's government has offered an amnesty to any armed groups in Falluja who surrender and are not found to have committed any "major" crimes.
In other developments on Wednesday:
* Militants abduct a first cousin of Iraqi interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi and two of his family members in Baghdad, reportedly threatening to kill them unless the Falluja siege is lifted
* The governor in Mosul imposes an indefinite curfew after militants kill four members of the Iraqi security forces and a foreign contractor
* Attacks at Balad, Baiji, Karbala and Tuz leave 12 members of the Iraqi security forces and one US soldier dead.
In Falluja, Marines backed by tanks met little opposition when they blasted their way into the mayor's compound, which also houses a police station, early on Wednesday.
However, they later came under sustained fire from the minaret of a mosque, says our correspondent, whose reports are subject to military restrictions.
According to marines, the rebels waved a white flag at one stage but opened fire from three directions when a marine interpreter tried to begin talks. The marines then called in air strikes.
Fadhil Badrani told the BBC News website that the battle was particularly fierce in the district of Jolan, just north of the centre.
He said he had seen the bodies of eight US soldiers lying in the streets of the city's Hammaniyya area overnight, along with the remains of many dead rebels. He had also found two disabled US tanks and three destroyed Humvee jeeps.
He said he doubted the truth of US claims that marines were in control of 70% of the city.
The US military's total death toll for the Falluja operation rose to 11 Americans and two Iraqi government soldiers on Wednesday. On Tuesday evening, it was saying 10 Americans.
'Total destruction'
Lt Gen Thomas Metz, the multinational ground force commander in Iraq, warned of "several more days of tough urban fighting" ahead, adding that rebel leaders such as Abu Musab al-Zarqawi - America's most wanted man in Iraq - appeared to have fled before the assault began.
In Washington, President George W Bush praised the US-led forces in Falluja for their "hard work... for a free Iraq".
However, Iraq's largest Sunni-led political party pulled out of the interim government in protest at the Falluja assault.
The main association of Sunni clerics also voiced its disapproval, calling for a boycott of elections due in January.
Neighbouring Iran also voiced serious concern over Iraqi losses in Falluja.
Aid agencies have highlighted the plight of civilians in Falluja where up to 50,000 people remain out of a pre-war population of 300,000.
The Red Cross has urged all combatants to guarantee passage to the wounded.
Paul Wood notes that despite efforts by US forces to select targets carefully, their use of heavy artillery and tanks is bound to lead to civilian casualties.
An unnamed man claiming to be a rebel fighter told the BBC's Today programme that the destruction in Falluja was "total".
"The Americans are bombing everywhere," he said, adding that water and electricity had been cut off.
The assault on Falluja, a hotbed of Sunni resistance, is officially aimed at stabilising Iraq ahead of January's poll. |
I've made some of the main facts bold, for the people who don't like to read through all the long passages, so you can read the main parts. What do people think about this attack? Was it a vital part of the war to crush the terrorists, or will it stir up so much trouble that it will not be worth it?
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Kyre
Commodore
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 1263
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| Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:09 pm |
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The first pic looks like it's been taken straight from Full Metal Jacket.
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Alucard
Vampire
Joined: 06 Nov 2004
Posts: 2780
Location: Caaaaaanada
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| Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:44 pm |
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lol but its not a good thing wats happening
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:59 pm |
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It's about time!
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Kyre
Commodore
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 1263
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| Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:02 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | It's about time! |
Pity all the important guys ran away weeks ago eh?
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Alucard
Vampire
Joined: 06 Nov 2004
Posts: 2780
Location: Caaaaaanada
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| Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:04 pm |
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tehy kuld have at least given them a chance to surrender
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:06 pm |
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| Kyre wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | It's about time! |
Pity all the important guys ran away weeks ago eh? |
I don't think so...Some did, obviously...that's a given, but all...not by far.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:26 pm |
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They say the most devout ones stayed...and I agree with RM...been waiting for them to do this...though...I think they should've just leveled half the place.  But ah, well...I am no military strategist...
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:28 pm |
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| Exalya wrote: | | They say the most devout ones stayed...and I agree with RM...been waiting for them to do this...though...I think they should've just leveled half the place. But ah, well...I am no military strategist... |
They should have given the people a one-day warning to get civilians out, and then just LEVELED IT COMPLETELY!
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:32 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | Exalya wrote: | | They say the most devout ones stayed...and I agree with RM...been waiting for them to do this...though...I think they should've just leveled half the place. But ah, well...I am no military strategist... |
They should have given the people a one-day warning to get civilians out, and then just LEVELED IT COMPLETELY! |
YES. You'll get no argument from me here. That is how war should be played.
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Delta Quad 2003
Section 31 Guardian
Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 3164
Location: Earth
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| Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:53 pm |
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Bah, i say two, but none the less I have to agree as well.
-------signature-------
Caboose - I can't feel my face.
Church - Shut up caboose!
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Captain Dappet
Forum Revolutionist
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 16756
Location: On my supersonic rocket ship.
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| Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:01 pm |
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How would you like if someone came with a big army to your hometown and told you to leave your home, because we've decided to blow it to bits, because there could be a terrorist living in the same town as you?
Would you just say "sure!" and pack your bags, and leave your house, with no complaints whatsoever?
You're considering destroying an entire town, with hundreds of homes. There's no place like home, they say. And then you come and say "Hey, let's blow their homes up, that ought to get the terrorists out".
What the hell do you think they are, stupid? If you say that the civilians have 1 day to leave their homes before they get blown to pieces, who do you think will leave first, huh? The Terrorists, of course.
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Birdy
Socialist
Joined: 20 Sep 2004
Posts: 13502
Location: Here.
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| Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:40 pm |
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| Captain Dappet wrote: | How would you like if someone came with a big army to your hometown and told you to leave your home, because we've decided to blow it to bits, because there could be a terrorist living in the same town as you?
Would you just say "sure!" and pack your bags, and leave your house, with no complaints whatsoever?
You're considering destroying an entire town, with hundreds of homes. There's no place like home, they say. And then you come and say "Hey, let's blow their homes up, that ought to get the terrorists out".
What the hell do you think they are, stupid? If you say that the civilians have 1 day to leave their homes before they get blown to pieces, who do you think will leave first, huh? The Terrorists, of course. |
Go Dappet, it's your birthday!! 
I totally agree!
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:54 pm |
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| Captain Dappet wrote: | How would you like if someone came with a big army to your hometown and told you to leave your home, because we've decided to blow it to bits, because there could be a terrorist living in the same town as you?
Would you just say "sure!" and pack your bags, and leave your house, with no complaints whatsoever?
You're considering destroying an entire town, with hundreds of homes. There's no place like home, they say. And then you come and say "Hey, let's blow their homes up, that ought to get the terrorists out".
What the hell do you think they are, stupid? If you say that the civilians have 1 day to leave their homes before they get blown to pieces, who do you think will leave first, huh? The Terrorists, of course. |
They HAD to do it, damn it! (Excuse me, but I am NOT happy today.) It was a GREAT haven for terrorists and something had to be done! I disagree 100%
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Toad
Chief of Security
Joined: 28 Aug 2003
Posts: 936
Location: The Great Plains
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| Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:20 pm |
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| Captain Dappet wrote: | How would you like if someone came with a big army to your hometown and told you to leave your home, because we've decided to blow it to bits, because there could be a terrorist living in the same town as you?
Would you just say "sure!" and pack your bags, and leave your house, with no complaints whatsoever?
You're considering destroying an entire town, with hundreds of homes. There's no place like home, they say. And then you come and say "Hey, let's blow their homes up, that ought to get the terrorists out".
What the hell do you think they are, stupid? If you say that the civilians have 1 day to leave their homes before they get blown to pieces, who do you think will leave first, huh? The Terrorists, of course. |
Terrorists take pride in death. I think they will stay and fight rather than run away like cowards.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:30 pm |
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| Lt.CmdrWorf wrote: | | Captain Dappet wrote: | How would you like if someone came with a big army to your hometown and told you to leave your home, because we've decided to blow it to bits, because there could be a terrorist living in the same town as you?
Would you just say "sure!" and pack your bags, and leave your house, with no complaints whatsoever?
You're considering destroying an entire town, with hundreds of homes. There's no place like home, they say. And then you come and say "Hey, let's blow their homes up, that ought to get the terrorists out".
What the hell do you think they are, stupid? If you say that the civilians have 1 day to leave their homes before they get blown to pieces, who do you think will leave first, huh? The Terrorists, of course. |
Terrorists take pride in death. I think they will stay and fight rather than run away like cowards. |
Agreed...And so those that aren't terrorists would leave, so yeah...
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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borgslayer
Rear Admiral
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 2646
Location: Las Vegas
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| Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:40 pm |
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18 American Soldiers have died in this conflict.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:56 pm |
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| borgslayer wrote: | | 18 American Soldiers have died in this conflict. |
But I've heard around 300 terrorists (not insurgents anymore) have been killed 
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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borgslayer
Rear Admiral
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 2646
Location: Las Vegas
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| Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:18 am |
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Well thats a conflicting report since the military says 600 to 900 insurgents have been killed.
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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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| Fri Nov 12, 2004 5:04 am |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | Lt.CmdrWorf wrote: | | Captain Dappet wrote: | How would you like if someone came with a big army to your hometown and told you to leave your home, because we've decided to blow it to bits, because there could be a terrorist living in the same town as you?
Would you just say "sure!" and pack your bags, and leave your house, with no complaints whatsoever?
You're considering destroying an entire town, with hundreds of homes. There's no place like home, they say. And then you come and say "Hey, let's blow their homes up, that ought to get the terrorists out".
What the hell do you think they are, stupid? If you say that the civilians have 1 day to leave their homes before they get blown to pieces, who do you think will leave first, huh? The Terrorists, of course. |
Terrorists take pride in death. I think they will stay and fight rather than run away like cowards. |
Agreed...And so those that aren't terrorists would leave, so yeah... |
Em, maybe the terrorists that have been brainwashed since they were small kids might stay and fight to the death, but those who are in charge wouldn't, they'd get out. Also leve; an entire city were about 300 000 people or so live?!?!?! It's going to take years to rebuild the town as it is, you can't just wipe out a city to get about 2000 (a guess) terrorists. What happens if a large amount of terrorists appear in Bagdad, would that be leveled as well?
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Captain Dappet
Forum Revolutionist
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 16756
Location: On my supersonic rocket ship.
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| Fri Nov 12, 2004 9:38 am |
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Or better yet, what if a large amount of Terrorists were to appear in one of your cities? An American city. Would you level that too?
Something tells me you wouldn't.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Fri Nov 12, 2004 5:55 pm |
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| Captain Dappet wrote: | Or better yet, what if a large amount of Terrorists were to appear in one of your cities? An American city. Would you level that too?
Something tells me you wouldn't. |
No, because the people there WOULD HELP.
And also, the people in Fallujah were KILLED--INNOCENT people BY the terrorists! I saw a report on it on FOX!
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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| Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:18 pm |
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And so have Iraqi's by coalition forces. 
How on earth do they think they will get all or a lot of the terrorists this way? 300 000 people is way too many to check up on to make sure they aren't a terrorist, and if they did try that they'd have a rebelion on their hands. Sure, a number of terrorists have been killed, but a lot more will have escaped, and a number of civilians have been killed. Not to mention the huge damage caused. I don't pretend to know much about it, and I don't have nearly as much info as the people in charge do, but I don't see how this is going to stop terrorists and win the heart and minds of the Iraqi people.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:33 pm |
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| Jeremy wrote: | And so have Iraqi's by coalition forces.
How on earth do they think they will get all or a lot of the terrorists this way? 300 000 people is way too many to check up on to make sure they aren't a terrorist, and if they did try that they'd have a rebelion on their hands. Sure, a number of terrorists have been killed, but a lot more will have escaped, and a number of civilians have been killed. Not to mention the huge damage caused. I don't pretend to know much about it, and I don't have nearly as much info as the people in charge do, but I don't see how this is going to stop terrorists and win the heart and minds of the Iraqi people. |
You did not see my point. My point is that these terrorists were even willing to kill their OWN people.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:38 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | You did not see my point. My point is that these terrorists were even willing to kill their OWN people. |
Yes, and logistically that gives them the advantage. Coalition forces have to be concerned about innocent lives, while the terrorists don't have to be concerned
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