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Valathous
The Canadian, eh
Joined: 31 Aug 2002
Posts: 19074
Location: Centre Bell
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 Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:20 am |
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No RM. You do not understand. You do not need to follow the oh divine creator of all to be a good person with morals! I am truely sorry for all those who believe in that way! Religion is not the foundation of morals and of everything good.
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Captain Dappet
Forum Revolutionist
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 16756
Location: On my supersonic rocket ship.
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| Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:38 pm |
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Does Bush hold the same beliefs as RM? If so, then I can't blame some of the muslim extremists for viewing this as a Holy War.
Saying that Religion is the foundation of morals is insulting, to me and to many other people who are not religious. Morals come from your own head, not from a book like the Bible. I know just about no religious people, except one. He doesn't practice it, though, but he is one of the least moral people I know. Not saying that religion is immoral! Of course not. What I'm saying is, that it isnt the base for morals, and religious people can very well be immoral, just as non-religious people can be immoral. Most people, though, religious or no, have morals.
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superwoman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5742
Location: Sweden
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| Mon Nov 08, 2004 2:15 pm |
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| Quote: | | A truly secularized nation is ammoral. Canada is not truly secularized, but is secularized. That is my firm belief, is that secularism is harmful. With religion absent from society, there can be no morals. |
OMG! I take that as a huge insult! You are saying that I don't have any morals!  Do you really hear what you are are saying!
-------signature-------
We will never run out of oil, because no one will afford to use the last litre.
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:14 pm |
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| Exalya wrote: | | I was not speaking nationally. I was speaking based on single people. I don't like the idea of total secularism either, at all. Government needs some restraint. People, though, have morals whether agnostic, atheist, or Christian. |
I agree, everyone has morals. But you don't need religion to tell you what those morals are and whether or not you should follow them.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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TrekkieMage
Office Junkie
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 5335
Location: Hiding
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| Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:15 pm |
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RM, I cannot believe you just said that...That is an increadibly insulting and narrowminded statement. By that definition some of the kindest, smartest, most moral people I know have no morals. And you are saying that I have no morals. And I do. 
And as Valathous said, religion is the leading cause of war. Religion has been the cause of the 30 years war in Europe (otherwise known as the Age of Religious War, if I'm remembering correctly), then there are the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition...
Yes, religion is good for people, yes it has brought people some wonderful beliefs. But it is not responsible for human morals.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:29 pm |
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Without religion in public life, people have few or no morals. I don't think that that is narrow minded.
--EDIT--
However, as it is with the terrorists, sometimes religion can bring people to be immoral--but that is when people take a religion out of context. But anyways, let's get back on topic.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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TrekkieMage
Office Junkie
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 5335
Location: Hiding
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| Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:34 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | Without religion in public life, people have few or no morals. I don't think that that is narrow minded, but anyways, let's get back on topic. |
Hold on, I'll go back on topic in a second.
How on Earth can you prove that people don't have morals in public life?
I have several good reasons why your statement is wrong.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:38 pm |
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I want to quote a great Bill O'Reilly Talking Points memo of a while ago.
Read this. He makes good points.
| Quote: | Secularism vs. Traditionalism in The Last Samurai
Friday, January 02, 2004
By Bill O'Reilly
Editor's Note: This edition of the Talking Points Memo first appeared on December 8, 2003.
Hi, I'm Bill O'Reilly. Thanks for watching us tonight.
Tom Cruise, the last samurai in the battle over secularism, that's the subject of this evening's Talking Points Memo.
Okay, I go to see this Last Samurai (search) movie with Tom Cruise (search) over the weekend. It's the usual. Tom fighting, Tom frowning, Tom overcoming great odds to do the right thing. Sounds like me. Just kidding. The only thing Tom Cruise and I have in common is that we're both Americans.
Anyway, you should go to see this movie because when you strip it all down, it's about secularism versus traditionalism, the civil war we're fighting right now here in America and reporting on an almost a daily basis here.
The samurai were Japanese warriors who lived by a code of discipline, honor, and spiritual spiritualism. In the 1870's, the Japanese emperor wanted to move away from that traditional approach and make Japan a secular nation, which it is today.
The movie documents the struggle between the secular emperor and the traditional samurai. There are all kinds of scenes where the samurai leader prays -- the ACLU will not like that. And there are confrontations between the discipline motivated samurai and the weak secular Japanese forces.
Of course, the movie's fantasy, but the basic theme of secularism versus a strict code of behavior is the crux of the civil war we're seeing in America right now. So I recommend The Last Samurai as a vehicle that will teach you something. It is kind of bloody, but you know, there you go.
But if you want real life, consider comparing America, the most powerful nation the world has ever seen to Canada, our liberal friend to the north. Canada has wiped out its traditional approach to life and replaced it with a secular society. Church attendance is down drastically. The military there is so underfunded it might go bankrupt. And legalized drugs are now a reality.
This is what a secular society brings. Many Canadians are appalled, but the secularists have won. Canada is totally dependent on America for defense, even while it thumbs its nose at America's traditional values.
Over the next 10 months, Americans will have to make a decision what kind of country we want to be, traditional or secular. Outside of the war on terror, this is a major issue today. The samurai lost their quest for a traditional society. So did the Canadians. It'll be interesting to see if we do, too.
And that's The Memo. |
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:45 pm |
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btw, I'm talking about religion being outed from GOVERNMENT AND SOCIETY, not necessarily individual people. I want to make that CLEAR.
Also, secularism brings on more pornography, legal drugs, etc.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Mon Nov 08, 2004 6:00 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | Also, secularism brings on more pornography, legal drugs, etc. |
That's not entirely true. In a secularist society, it's just that such things are more apparent. In a theocracy, there's usually the same amount of pornography, et cetera, it just usually tends to move underground and become more discreet 
Although we're already wildly off topic, I can debate that legalized drugs can be good things. If tobacco kills and we've legalized it, why not marijuana as well? At least it gives the government more control (which may or may not be a good thing).
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Nov 08, 2004 6:25 pm |
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| Hitchhiker wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | Also, secularism brings on more pornography, legal drugs, etc. |
That's not entirely true. In a secularist society, it's just that such things are more apparent. In a theocracy, there's usually the same amount of pornography, et cetera, it just usually tends to move underground and become more discreet
Although we're already wildly off topic, I can debate that legalized drugs can be good things. If tobacco kills and we've legalized it, why not marijuana as well? At least it gives the government more control (which may or may not be a good thing). |
Don't legalize more than cigarrettes. Just don't.
And no, part of the reason why Muslims like Osama hate us is because of our television stuff, etc, coupled with our freedom. Things run much more rampant in a secular society.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Mon Nov 08, 2004 6:38 pm |
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Cigarettes kill a lot of people
A further terrorist mindset is that they don't see the U.S. as a free country. This may be hard to accept, but there are some people who see the U.S. as an oppressive theocratic imperalist regime.
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Mon Nov 08, 2004 6:58 pm |
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| Hitchhiker wrote: | Cigarettes kill a lot of people
A further terrorist mindset is that they don't see the U.S. as a free country. This may be hard to accept, but there are some people who see the U.S. as an oppressive theocratic imperalist regime. |
*ahem* They see us as Christian. As a nation that helps the Jews. Which is why they dislike us. Seeing us as not being free...? I don't know if I'd go so far.
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Valathous
The Canadian, eh
Joined: 31 Aug 2002
Posts: 19074
Location: Centre Bell
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| Mon Nov 08, 2004 7:54 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: |
Don't legalize more than cigarrettes. Just don't.
And no, part of the reason why Muslims like Osama hate us is because of our television stuff, etc, coupled with our freedom. Things run much more rampant in a secular society. |
Um. I don't see how this is true, as Canada isn't a nation that has been a victim of terrorist attacks....
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Mon Nov 08, 2004 7:58 pm |
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| Exalya wrote: | | Hitchhiker wrote: | Cigarettes kill a lot of people
A further terrorist mindset is that they don't see the U.S. as a free country. This may be hard to accept, but there are some people who see the U.S. as an oppressive theocratic imperalist regime. |
*ahem* They see us as Christian. As a nation that helps the Jews. Which is why they dislike us. Seeing us as not being free...? I don't know if I'd go so far. |
The U.S. citizens themselves may be free, it's the fact that the U.S. tends to impose its will on the global stage that bothers the terrorists. What you may see as the 'liberation of the Iraqi people' is what the terrorists may see as 'the American imperialist oppression of the Iraqi people'.
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:09 pm |
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| Hitchhiker wrote: | | Exalya wrote: | | Hitchhiker wrote: | Cigarettes kill a lot of people
A further terrorist mindset is that they don't see the U.S. as a free country. This may be hard to accept, but there are some people who see the U.S. as an oppressive theocratic imperalist regime. |
*ahem* They see us as Christian. As a nation that helps the Jews. Which is why they dislike us. Seeing us as not being free...? I don't know if I'd go so far. |
The U.S. citizens themselves may be free, it's the fact that the U.S. tends to impose its will on the global stage that bothers the terrorists. What you may see as the 'liberation of the Iraqi people' is what the terrorists may see as 'the American imperialist oppression of the Iraqi people'. |
That's true. However, the do hate us for helping the Jews. That's what Osama kept going on about in his tape. How we helped the Jews. That really, really, displeases them. And Canada, as far as I know, isn't famous for being the savior of Jews. Or for being a Christian nation. The U.S. is.
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Valathous
The Canadian, eh
Joined: 31 Aug 2002
Posts: 19074
Location: Centre Bell
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| Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:11 pm |
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I know that, but RM said that the things Terrorists hate, happen more often in secular nations...... So I was saying that must not be true, as no terrorist things have happened in Canada that I can name off the top of my head.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:27 pm |
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| Valathous wrote: | | I know that, but RM said that the things Terrorists hate, happen more often in secular nations...... So I was saying that must not be true, as no terrorist things have happened in Canada that I can name off the top of my head. |
I said about a combination of that AND our freedoms. And, also, as Exalya's saying, our support for the Jews and Israel.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Captain Dappet
Forum Revolutionist
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 16756
Location: On my supersonic rocket ship.
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| Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:20 am |
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They don't hate freedom. If that's true, why didn't they attack Sweden? Osama himself mentioned it. Sweden and Canada are free nations, just like America, but they have not attacked us.
So obviously, it's not your freedom they hate. They hate you because, as mentioned, they view you as a theocratic Imperialist regime, and they hate that you meddle so much with other countries, and try to influence everyone to think like you do.
But you obviously can't see this, so I'm not sure why I bothered to say it.
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Kyre
Commodore
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 1263
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| Tue Nov 09, 2004 2:29 pm |
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| Exalya wrote: | | Hitchhiker wrote: | | Exalya wrote: | | Hitchhiker wrote: | Cigarettes kill a lot of people
A further terrorist mindset is that they don't see the U.S. as a free country. This may be hard to accept, but there are some people who see the U.S. as an oppressive theocratic imperalist regime. |
*ahem* They see us as Christian. As a nation that helps the Jews. Which is why they dislike us. Seeing us as not being free...? I don't know if I'd go so far. |
The U.S. citizens themselves may be free, it's the fact that the U.S. tends to impose its will on the global stage that bothers the terrorists. What you may see as the 'liberation of the Iraqi people' is what the terrorists may see as 'the American imperialist oppression of the Iraqi people'. |
That's true. However, the do hate us for helping the Jews. That's what Osama kept going on about in his tape. How we helped the Jews. That really, really, displeases them. And Canada, as far as I know, isn't famous for being the savior of Jews. Or for being a Christian nation. The U.S. is. |
Saviour of Jews?
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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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| Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:14 pm |
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Being a Christian nation. I know a lot of people, and people who know people (sounds cheesy, but's true) in the Arab world. A lot of the arabs think that this is a holy war, and being fought between Islam and Christianity. Just saying that.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:12 pm |
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| Captain Dappet wrote: | They don't hate freedom. If that's true, why didn't they attack Sweden? Osama himself mentioned it. Sweden and Canada are free nations, just like America, but they have not attacked us.
So obviously, it's not your freedom they hate. They hate you because, as mentioned, they view you as a theocratic Imperialist regime, and they hate that you meddle so much with other countries, and try to influence everyone to think like you do.
But you obviously can't see this, so I'm not sure why I bothered to say it. |
What makes a bigger impression upon the world, attacking Sweden and Canada, two countries that have a comparably small military-or attacking the worlds most powerful nation, striking symbols of everything that makes them powerful:
WTC-Econemy
Pentagon-Military
Whitehouse(attempted)-People/Leadership
That is why they attacked The Untied States.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:17 pm |
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| JanewayIsHott wrote: | | Captain Dappet wrote: | They don't hate freedom. If that's true, why didn't they attack Sweden? Osama himself mentioned it. Sweden and Canada are free nations, just like America, but they have not attacked us.
So obviously, it's not your freedom they hate. They hate you because, as mentioned, they view you as a theocratic Imperialist regime, and they hate that you meddle so much with other countries, and try to influence everyone to think like you do.
But you obviously can't see this, so I'm not sure why I bothered to say it. |
What makes a bigger impression upon the world, attacking Sweden and Canada, two countries that have a comparably small military-or attacking the worlds most powerful nation, striking symbols of everything that makes them powerful:
WTC-Econemy
Pentagon-Military
Whitehouse(attempted)-People/Leadership
That is why they attacked The Untied States. |
Yes, that is a CLEAR reason that played.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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