USA: Elections

Republican_Man · **Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:32 pm**

There is a topic about Hype, my friend

Delta Quad 2003 · **Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:38 pm**

wow, I had no idea that the race was still so close.

Republican_Man · **Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:40 pm**

Actually, Gallup has Bush with a big lead in most cases, especially the state-by-state, ESPECIALLY in Florida and Ohio (Zogby has Bush ahead too).

Delta Quad 2003 · **Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:49 pm**

RM, I think I am gunna vote for bush. now, how many others that post in here can honestly vote?

Republican_Man · **Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:50 pm**

^Good!
I can't vote now, unfortunately.

Delta Quad 2003 · **Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:04 pm**

I can understand that, and I have read this entire topic. I want to ask all of you Kerry supporters that live outside the US something. Do any of you know what the U.S. is going through right now in the economy? If you did, you would know that Bush did an excellent job holding the county together. After 9/11, I thought that the economy was going to crash. Stock markets, jobs, money flow, etc., but it didn't. Bush was able to hold it together, make it stronger than it was, AND go over and tear apart Al-Queda. Sure, they are not totally gone, but a terrorist group does not just disappear overnight. And I saw something about rebuilding Iraq, we are, and it has the same problem as eliminating terroists. It takes TIME.

Hitchhiker · **Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:32 pm**

Of course, the problem is time.

Because of the way election terms are set up, politicians think in terms. And most political proposals that will take longer than a politician's probable term in office is usually rejected--or if it is started, then the next politician in office cuts all the funding to it, and it whithers away and dies. . . .

::goes back to reading Ben Bova::

Valathous · **Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:54 pm**

You know what would solve all arguments?

Lets all agree to vote Nader

Birdy · Socialist Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 13502 Location: Here.

Puck · The Texan Joined: 05 Jan 2004 Posts: 5596

Saying that he "cheated" and other things such as that is not "stating your opinion. An opinion is something that isn't necessarily right or wrong-true or false. This is either true or false and there is nothing to have an opinion about. If you want to put it true, bring some facts to the table, otherwise, it isn't true until you prove it to be so. If you have actual evidence from a book, then post it.

Birdy · Socialist Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 13502 Location: Here.

OMG! if I say that I believe that he cheated, will you believe me? I don't think so. Whatever! I don't mind, this is my opinion.
The book is in my language, which is Dutch. Buy the book yourself if you so desperately want to take a look at the evidence.

Thomas · **Tue Oct 26, 2004 8:21 am**

Birdy · Socialist Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 13502 Location: Here.

I got this from 'Stupid White Men'. These are sources of the investigation he describes which was conducted during/after the elections of 2000.

The investigation on the purified voterslists is published in The Nation, 'Florida's "Dissapeared Voters": Disfranchised by the GOP', Gregory Palast, feb 5th 2001; The Nation, How the GOP gamed the System in Florida', John Latigua, april 30th 2001; the Los Angeles Times, 'Florida Net Too Wide in Purge of Voter Rolls', Lisa Getter, may 21st 2001, and on Salon.com, 'Eliminating Fraud- Or Democrats?', Anthony York, december 8th 2000.

In the New York Times were some articles published about counting the votes of people who were in a foreign country: 'How Bush Took Florida: Mining the Overseas Absentee Vote', David Barstow and Don Van Natta jr., july 14th-15th 2001; 'How the Ballots Were Examined', july 15th 2001; 'House Republicans Pressed Pentagon for E-Mail Addresses of Sailors', C.J. Chivers, july 15th 2001.

I could go on and on.

I've translated a piece of chapter 1 of 'Stupid White Men':
'Al Gore is a democratticaly chosen president of the United States. He got 539,898 more votes than Bush. But he isn't in the White House. Nou, our democratically chosen president is wondering through the country, and only shows himself when he's giving lectures to students.
[..]
The law states that people who have a criminal record can't cast their votes in Florida. And that means that 31% of all black men can't cast their votes in Florida, because they haven't got a spotless criminal record. Harris & Bush knew that if they'd remove those people from the voterslists, they would hold thousands of black citizens out of the voting. The black population in Florida would vote in a major majority on the Democrats, and yes, Al Gore got on november the 7th of 2000 more than 90% of their votes. That is, 90% of the votes who were allowed to be casted.
It lookes like that the state of Florida was committing fraud on a big scale, when Bush & Harris & co not only deleted the names of the people who had a record, but also deleted the names of thousands of black citizens who hadn't committed a crime in their entire life and also deleted some of them who had only offended a crime [I mean that they had only a speeding ticket of some sort].
[..]
Lieberman, and with him a whole lot more Democrats had to fight for the principle in stead of just thinking about their image. Why? Well, because the New York Times found out the following things:

*344 ballots were not proven to be sent in on or before the date of the elections.
*183 ballots had an American poststamp.
*On 96 ballots was the required witness-information missing.
*169 ballots were coming from non-registerd voters, were in envelops where the required autograph was missing, or were coming from people who didn't request any ballot.
*5 ballots were after recieved november the 17th, the outermost send-in
date.
*19 enfranchised who were abroad voted on two ballots - which both were accounted for.'

This is enough evidence for me. This is just a fraction of the book of course.

Republican_Man · **Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:53 am**

Oh, yeah, right. Fine, if those "facts" are good enough for you, then fine. But you know what? I know for a FACT that Bush didn't cheat, and that many of the sources that Moore cites in his books and movie, if you check them, turn out to be different. And it's the New York Times, too. But I know that Bush didn't cheat, and unless you can find more "evidence" than what is in Moore's book, I will not believe you.

syd2002 · **Tue Oct 26, 2004 3:03 pm**

Alright, how about we beleave bush cheated, and will not beleve you if you dont produce some evidence that he is not.

TrekkieMage · **Tue Oct 26, 2004 3:45 pm**

Republican_Man · **Tue Oct 26, 2004 3:53 pm**

Mikado · **Tue Oct 26, 2004 4:20 pm**

I'd have to go with Bush..

I don't like Kerry, he rubs me the wrong way. It's probably the fact that every speech I've ever seen him give, granted I haven't paid too much attention as I can't vote yet. *grumble.*, but the one's my dad has made me watch with him.. He's basically just slandered Bush. And all of his comericals are slander.

And he goes on about his plan.. But, I've never heard what this plan is.. So, I'm asking. ACTUALLY asking, not being sarcastic. What is his plan?

He uses Rhetoric and words to put Bush down and make him seem "bad". And Bush, from what i've been paying attention too, has been talking about the issues. Not just about Kerry.. Who just seems to be talking crap, and using smear tactics.

So.. Even if I don't agree with Bush on all fronts, I'd have to vote for him. Because at least I know where he hands. And in my opinion, that's better then maybe agreeing, but being unsure.

TrekkieMage · **Tue Oct 26, 2004 4:37 pm**

RM: I was just stating the overall turnout (which I thought was the debate, but maybe I read wrong)

Mikado: Yes, Kerry does slander Bush. But Bush also slanders Kerry. I haven't really listened to any of Bush's speaches, but I've seen his ads, and he does attack in a nearly identical pattern. I think I'm going to pay a visit to both of the canidates websites and see if they state their plans detail, because I'm not entierely sure what either of them is planning.

Republican_Man · **Tue Oct 26, 2004 4:49 pm**

Link, the Hero of Time · **Tue Oct 26, 2004 5:41 pm**

TrekkieMage · **Tue Oct 26, 2004 6:09 pm**

Republican_Man · **Tue Oct 26, 2004 6:18 pm**

TrekkieMage · **Tue Oct 26, 2004 7:06 pm**