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Defiant
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 04 Jul 2001
Posts: 15946
Location: Oregon City, OR
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 Mon Oct 11, 2004 1:20 pm |
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| Valathous wrote: | | Don't discriminate them because a book based on an imaginary being says it's not allowed. |
This pretty much covers the entire argument.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Mon Oct 11, 2004 1:24 pm |
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Maybe for you, but not for the majority of the US population.
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Defiant
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 04 Jul 2001
Posts: 15946
Location: Oregon City, OR
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| Mon Oct 11, 2004 1:36 pm |
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No, I think its good enough for everyone.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Mon Oct 11, 2004 2:07 pm |
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I wish. 
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Defiant
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 04 Jul 2001
Posts: 15946
Location: Oregon City, OR
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| Mon Oct 11, 2004 3:06 pm |
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As do I. Oh well, I guess it wouldnt be too much fun if everyone believed one thing.
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Birdy
Socialist
Joined: 20 Sep 2004
Posts: 13502
Location: Here.
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| Tue Oct 12, 2004 7:25 am |
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Phage, I totally agree with you, on everything you've said. I'm glad I live in Europe,.. Can't imagine what it's like for you living in the states. Over here, gay people are commonly accepted. We're not finished yet though, at schools there are still people being bullied because the're gay (40%)..
But I think it's a lot better than over there.
I don't think marriage is a 'sacred' thing. Hell no. My parents aren't married, because in the time they wanted to (80's), my mother would have less rights than my father (am I saying this correct..?)
So I don't think marriage should be only for those who are heteorsexual. *Beep*. Come on. Gay people are as much human as you and me, and in fact, I like gay men even more than I do straight man. Much nicer and much more sensitive. (though I have a very nice boyfriend who's also sensitive  )
Anyway, my point is that marriage doensn't seem important these days. Sacred? Why do most couples divorce in the first year of their marriage? It's not so sacred then, is it.
Well, this is just my opinion.. I hope someday marriage for gay people will also be legal in the us... 
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Phade
Ensign
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 62
Location: Dallas, Tx, USA
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| Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:41 pm |
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| Belanna1985 wrote: | Phage, I totally agree with you, on everything you've said. I'm glad I live in Europe,.. Can't imagine what it's like for you living in the states. Over here, gay people are commonly accepted. We're not finished yet though, at schools there are still people being bullied because the're gay (40%)..
But I think it's a lot better than over there. |
First, its Phade, not Phage   No biggie! 
Its rough at times living here. I'm not the type that I walk out my door waving flags, and have banners all over my car, or go around screaming "Girl!" all the time (no offense to those that do...I'm just like that), but its a scary thought that I could go to the store, and end up being beaten, or worse when someone finds out. Or to fear losing a job over, or any number of things. Heck, there are even songs out over here, glorifying gay bashing...so ya know. I don't personally fret over too much, I just live life and let things happen as they may.
| Quote: | Anyway, my point is that marriage doensn't seem important these days. Sacred? Why do most couples divorce in the first year of their marriage? It's not so sacred then, is it.
Well, this is just my opinion.. I hope someday marriage for gay people will also be legal in the us... |
In some ways I agree with you on this. People didn't start fighting to protect marriage and come up with the Defense of Marriage Act, until it came to gay marriage. They let the reality shows butcher it, they allow all the marriages to end in divorce, or just seperation. It doesn't seem that these people are fighting to protect "normal" marriage. (Though from previous rebukes...I know that Republican_Man is) But that is another story to go off on....And I must say I respect your opinion. Especially since it agreess with mine. Hehe.
BTW, you made a freind over here in US today, Belanna1985. Thanks for the support. And a hearty thanks to those others who support this as well. You all rock! (as for the ones who don't support it...your opinion counts, and debate is great! I respect you all for stating what you think!)
Peace and long life!!
Safe journeys,...
[/b]
-------signature-------
"Don't try to be a great man. Just be a man, and let history make its own judgements." - Zephram Cochrane
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superwoman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5742
Location: Sweden
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| Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:17 am |
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OMG! pweh, I'm glad I live here... 
Anyway since we don't really have a national religion here and no one actually gives a crap about all that. I don't se why it shouldn't be legal. I think it soon will be legal here but I�m actually not sure... In the US I do understand why it's not legal... cuz... well you know.
And I do kinda blame the religion for gay marriage being illegal.
| Republican_Man wrote: |
2. Ahead of the times! NO! |
I actually agree! *grin*
And I just found this... (I've tried to translate it as good as I could) It's a letter that some radio show got after saying that homosexuality is wrong according to the bible... (I can't remember what show it was thou).
| Quote: | Dear dr. Laura
Thank you for teaching people about gud's message.
I myself have learnt much from you, and I'm trying to share my knowledge to as many as I can.
For example if someone is trying to defend homosexuality, I'll remind them about 3:e moseboken 18:22 where it says that homosexuality is bad and there is no more to that discussion. But now I have to confess that I need some advise about how to follow some of god's words.
1. Allways when I sacrifice a bullock to god (3:e moseboken 1:9), - because I know the smell pleases him. But the problem is that when I do, the neighbours complains.
2. I wish to sell my daughter as a slave (2:d moseboken 21:7). With today's marketing, what do you think would be a reasonable price?
3. 3:e Mosebok 24:44 says that I can own both male and female slaves as long as they are bought from a "neighbour country". A friend of mine says that it only apply to Mexicans and not Canadians. I need help about this. Are I allowed to own Canadians?
4. I have a neighbour that insist to work at the Sabbath. 2:a moseboken 35:2 clearly says that he should be killed. Am I morally responsible to do this myself?
5. One of my friends says that if it's sin to eat shellfish, then homosexuality is worse. I disagree. Who is right?
6. 3:e moseboken 21:20 clearly says that I can't approach god's altar if I can't see properly. I must admit I am short-sighted and uses glasses. Do the sight really have to be perfect?
7. My friends usually goes to the hairdresser. This is apparently a sin accordingly to 3:e moseboken 19:27. How should this be punished?
8. I've read in 3:e moseboken 11:7-8 that I shouldn't touch any remainder of a dead pig because it makes me unpure. Can I still play football if I use gloves?
9. My uncle has a farm. He commit sin according to 3:e moseboken 19:19 because he grows different crops in the same soil. His wife isn't any better cuz she wears clothes that are made out of more then one fabric (usually a mixture of cotton and polyester). He also has the bad habit to do allot of cursing. Is it really necessarily to gather the WHOLE village to stone then (3:e moseboken 24:10-16)? Isn�t it just easier to burn then to death together at the stake as we usually do to people that sleep with their relatives (3:e moseboken 20:14)?
I know you have really tired to solve problems like this. So I�m sure you can help me with this. Thank you for always reminding us that god�s word is eternal and unchangeable
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Beeing gay isn't wrong. Gay couples should be abel to do the same things as every couple... including get married.
-------signature-------
We will never run out of oil, because no one will afford to use the last litre.
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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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| Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:53 pm |
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Notice that's all from Moseboken (presumably deuteronomy). That is an old testament book about the laws of the time. It was written for the people of Israel wondering about in the desert and to keep the community together. Notice that in the new testament homosexuality is mentioned, but none of the other rules are.
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:31 pm |
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[quote="superwoman"]
| Quote: | Dear dr. Laura
Thank you for teaching people about gud's message.
I myself have learnt much from you, and I'm trying to share my knowledge to as many as I can.
For example if someone is trying to defend homosexuality, I'll remind them about 3:e moseboken 18:22 where it says that homosexuality is bad and there is no more to that discussion. But now I have to confess that I need some advise about how to follow some of god's words.
1. Allways when I sacrifice a bullock to god (3:e moseboken 1:9), - because I know the smell pleases him. But the problem is that when I do, the neighbours complains.
Jesus sacrificed HIMSELF so we wouldn't have to anymore. Note this.
2. I wish to sell my daughter as a slave (2:d moseboken 21:7). With today's marketing, what do you think would be a reasonable price?
At the time, slavery was permitted by law. Now, it is not. According to the Bible, you ALSO obey the laws of the land.
3. 3:e Mosebok 24:44 says that I can own both male and female slaves as long as they are bought from a "neighbour country". A friend of mine says that it only apply to Mexicans and not Canadians. I need help about this. Are I allowed to own Canadians?
See above.
4. I have a neighbour that insist to work at the Sabbath. 2:a moseboken 35:2 clearly says that he should be killed. Am I morally responsible to do this myself?
For one, the Sabbath is not Sunday, let us be clear. For another thing, it's not an unforgivable sin. And I really need to translate that verse. It may or may NOT mean what the supposed translation says. Advice: Get a Strong's.
5. One of my friends says that if it's sin to eat shellfish, then homosexuality is worse. I disagree. Who is right?
We are not supposed to eat shellfish, actually. BUT NONE OF THESE ARE UNFORGIVABLE SINS. Not eating shellfish was put in place for your health. Do you even know what shellfish eat? Ew.
6. 3:e moseboken 21:20 clearly says that I can't approach god's altar if I can't see properly. I must admit I am short-sighted and uses glasses. Do the sight really have to be perfect?
TRANSLATE IT!!! Do you know what spiritual blindness is? LOOK IT UP!
7. My friends usually goes to the hairdresser. This is apparently a sin accordingly to 3:e moseboken 19:27. How should this be punished?
Again... *sighs* NOT translated correctly in modern language. Do you know what the Hebrew means when you're talking about a woman's head/face/hair? Not literal!
8. I've read in 3:e moseboken 11:7-8 that I shouldn't touch any remainder of a dead pig because it makes me unpure. Can I still play football if I use gloves?
I haven't looked that up myself. But I'm pretty certain it's not the literal translation. I'm not home at the moment. I can look it up later.
9. My uncle has a farm. He commit sin according to 3:e moseboken 19:19 because he grows different crops in the same soil. His wife isn't any better cuz she wears clothes that are made out of more then one fabric (usually a mixture of cotton and polyester). He also has the bad habit to do allot of cursing. Is it really necessarily to gather the WHOLE village to stone then (3:e moseboken 24:10-16)? Isn�t it just easier to burn then to death together at the stake as we usually do to people that sleep with their relatives (3:e moseboken 20:14)?
DO YOU KNOW WHAT SOIL IS? PLANTS? NOT LITERAL! Do you know what it means to plant a SEED?! Spiritually? Loooooook it uuuup. Cursing? So you happen to know what the verse was directing the cursing at? And burning people; that's just about the same as the sacrificial thing. We can be FORGIVEN because Jesus paid the price for everyone's sins after he died.
I know you have really tired to solve problems like this. So I�m sure you can help me with this. Thank you for always reminding us that god�s word is eternal and unchangeable
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Okay, sorry. That made me angry. I know, Superwoman, it wasn't your writing. But I had to correct it anyway. When reading the bible, you have to do a number of things. Understand the subject, understand WHETHER OR NOT THE WORDS WERE LITERAL, and keep the timeline in mind. I.E., get a Strong's concordance. If you're reading something about a scripture, check out who's doing your translating for you. The bible is not nonsensical if you actually read it properly.
-------signature-------
Not the doctor... yet
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superwoman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5742
Location: Sweden
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| Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm |
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| Jeremy wrote: | | Notice that's all from Moseboken (presumably deuteronomy). That is an old testament book about the laws of the time. It was written for the people of Israel wondering about in the desert and to keep the community together. Notice that in the new testament homosexuality is mentioned, but none of the other rules are. |
Yeahyeah I know but whatever. I just thought it was fun
-------signature-------
We will never run out of oil, because no one will afford to use the last litre.
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:22 pm |
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^Not quite so "Fun" when that's seriously what a lot of people think about Christianity. It's those kind of misconceptions that turn people off.
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superwoman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5742
Location: Sweden
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| Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:37 pm |
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don't get me wrong, I do like religon and all that... just not... the extrem part of it you know. I mean that part of it *points*
It's that part that scares me of. 
-------signature-------
We will never run out of oil, because no one will afford to use the last litre.
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:43 pm |
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And it also happens to be that part which is not valid, and/or not traslated correctly. *ahem* But anyway. This is getting off-topic, so I will let 'er be...
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Birdy
Socialist
Joined: 20 Sep 2004
Posts: 13502
Location: Here.
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| Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:05 am |
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| Phade wrote: | | First, its Phade, not Phage No biggie! |
woops... sorry...
| Phade wrote: | | Its rough at times living here. I'm not the type that I walk out my door waving flags, and have banners all over my car, or go around screaming "Girl!" all the time (no offense to those that do...I'm just like that), but its a scary thought that I could go to the store, and end up being beaten, or worse when someone finds out. Or to fear losing a job over, or any number of things. Heck, there are even songs out over here, glorifying gay bashing...so ya know. I don't personally fret over too much, I just live life and let things happen as they may. |
My God. I can't even imagine living like that. Seems horrible!
| Phade wrote: | | In some ways I agree with you on this. People didn't start fighting to protect marriage and come up with the Defense of Marriage Act, until it came to gay marriage. They let the reality shows butcher it, they allow all the marriages to end in divorce, or just seperation. It doesn't seem that these people are fighting to protect "normal" marriage. (Though from previous rebukes...I know that Republican_Man is) But that is another story to go off on....And I must say I respect your opinion. Especially since it agreess with mine. Hehe. |
Exactly. That's what I've been thinking. Horrible. I just watched a documantary about Bush, and it showed his campaign when he wanted to be president back in 2000. He did many speeches, with, of course, a lot of audiance. The audiance had some banners up in the air, and one of them said: 'Vote for Bush, Gay people have way to many rights!'
My heart stopped beating for a second. We say we're evolved, we're the humans of the 21th century, but we're not. I really can't stand people who are against the fact that gay people should have the same rights as any other. Yuk. Makes me puke.
| Phade wrote: | | BTW, you made a freind over here in US today, Belanna1985. Thanks for the support. And a hearty thanks to those others who support this as well. You all rock! (as for the ones who don't support it...your opinion counts, and debate is great! I respect you all for stating what you think!) |
Thanks I'm glad I can do something for you from such a distance
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Thu Oct 21, 2004 10:25 am |
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| Hitchhiker wrote: |
-You have to change the definition of marriage, which is just a word.
-You would go against the wishes of the current majority of the population. This is the same majority that likes Reality TV shows centering on marriage . . . and I bet that when LOGO comes out with its "My Fabulous Gay Wedding" there will be a lot of people watching, since it involves TV and wedding.
-You would open the door to polygamy. |
Marriage is NOT just a word, it's an institution which has held the moral fabric of society together for a long time. It's something that keeps our modesty in check, and our sexuality behind closed doors (WHERE IT BELONGS).
As for defying the will of the majority. You use the "reality show" watchers as examples. Well, guess what, THAT is a DEMOCRACY. The ignorant DO have a right to an opinion, and NO dicator will last pushing the American public around.
As for polygamy, I don't think that's the only thing that the destruction of a MAJOR civilization's institution will do.
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TrekkieMage
Office Junkie
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 5335
Location: Hiding
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| Sun Oct 24, 2004 7:23 pm |
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I've been reading through the posts here.
1. One's ideas of religious purity (ie: marriage) should not be forced on others. If you dislike gay marriage, just don't assosiate yourself with gay people. And I appologize if you do that because there are some amazing people who happen to be attracted to their sex.
2. I respect your beliefs and religion, I just don't think it should be used to descriminate against people.
3. The defenition of "Descrimination":
(n) 1: unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice [syn: favoritism, favouritism]
2: the cognitive process whereby two or more stimuli are distinguished [syn: secernment]
4. Gay relationships that I've seen tend to last just as long, if not longer, than most opposite sex couples. My parents have been married 18 years. The couple accross the street (a gay couple) have been together 20 years. My parents have had the support of law and tradition with everyone pulling for them to have a successful marriage (which, thankfuly, it is). My neighbors face opposition everywhere they look. Virginia no longer allows them to even own a house together.
Why? How? How can one human hate another so much as to deny them something so wonderful as marriage? Why is Gay marriage so horrible? Can someone explain this to me without using the Bible as a referance(since it has been explained that it's translation into English is erronous)?
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Birdy
Socialist
Joined: 20 Sep 2004
Posts: 13502
Location: Here.
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| Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:21 am |
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| TrekkieMage wrote: | I've been reading through the posts here.
1. One's ideas of religious purity (ie: marriage) should not be forced on others. If you dislike gay marriage, just don't assosiate yourself with gay people. And I appologize if you do that because there are some amazing people who happen to be attracted to their sex.
2. I respect your beliefs and religion, I just don't think it should be used to descriminate against people.
3. The defenition of "Descrimination":
(n) 1: unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice [syn: favoritism, favouritism]
2: the cognitive process whereby two or more stimuli are distinguished [syn: secernment]
4. Gay relationships that I've seen tend to last just as long, if not longer, than most opposite sex couples. My parents have been married 18 years. The couple accross the street (a gay couple) have been together 20 years. My parents have had the support of law and tradition with everyone pulling for them to have a successful marriage (which, thankfuly, it is). My neighbors face opposition everywhere they look. Virginia no longer allows them to even own a house together.
Why? How? How can one human hate another so much as to deny them something so wonderful as marriage? Why is Gay marriage so horrible? Can someone explain this to me without using the Bible as a referance(since it has been explained that it's translation into English is erronous)? |
OMG They can't even have a house together?! You're kidding!! This is horrible! It's just a violation of human rights! It *beep* is!  
I'm glad I live in Europe, though I'm not gay.
I totally agree with you!!
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Mon Oct 25, 2004 1:22 pm |
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How many times must it be said that people opposed to gay marriage are not necessarily homophobes and/or do not necessarily want to get rid of gay people themselves? TrekkieMage, your statements assume this. If I didn't like gay people, I wouldn't have my best friend, OR, be rather close to a gay couple. (And by the way, it is possible to translate the bible correctly, and actually very easy) I'm not even going to try and answer "why shouldn't they be able to marry," because I've stated that in other topics before. I'm tired of doing so. Just warning you. Don't assume too much of those who are against gay marriage. And may I add that I dislike the decision made in Virginia, just as you do. That's just idiodicy, there.
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TrekkieMage
Office Junkie
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 5335
Location: Hiding
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| Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:36 pm |
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| Exalya wrote: | | How many times must it be said that people opposed to gay marriage are not necessarily homophobes and/or do not necessarily want to get rid of gay people themselves? TrekkieMage, your statements assume this. If I didn't like gay people, I wouldn't have my best friend, OR, be rather close to a gay couple. (And by the way, it is possible to translate the bible correctly, and actually very easy) I'm not even going to try and answer "why shouldn't they be able to marry," because I've stated that in other topics before. I'm tired of doing so. Just warning you. Don't assume too much of those who are against gay marriage. And may I add that I dislike the decision made in Virginia, just as you do. That's just idiodicy, there. |
I apologize for offending you. My intention is not to start an argument. I'm aware that people have really good reasons for not wanting gay marriage.
My issue is that some people (certainly not the majority) do tend to give rather pathetic reasons against it. And some people do a terrible job of sticking up for gay marriage as well. It's a two way street.
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busk
Crewman
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 4
Location: holland
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| Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:34 pm |
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HAHAHAHA
| Republican_Man wrote: | | Hitchhiker wrote: | I see.
Ontario hasn't legalized polygamy, and we allow same-sex marriages. As far as I know, there is no such bill being proposed in either Provincial Parliament or Federal Parliament.
We're making it work.
Sure, sure. Whatever you say Either way, who knows? Polygamy might become legal in your country using that excuse, but here in the US it is a DEFINITE and is ALREADY happening. Allowing Gay Marriage to happen OPENS THE DOORS to such other marriages. You can either have it one way (the right and traditional way) or ALL ways. I choose the one way.
Maybe same-sex marriages do mean change. Maybe in the future, polygamy will be a possibility. But I don't like using discrimination as a preventive measure for only what could be, not what will be.
And it is discrimination. You are removing particular rights of people based on their sexual orientation.
Perhaps, but in a different sense, I believe--primarily because it is ONE right.
Marriage is an institution that should be extended to everyone
Or else it is meaningless, hollow, and false
It should not be a tool of the elite
A mark of conformity
It should be a union, a joining. |
NO. If it IS extended to everyone and all kind of marriages THEN it becomes meaningless. And the elite? MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT GAY OR POLYGAMISTS, ETC, SO THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE ARE ELITE! |
so wy am i married whit my computer and i have a girlfriend...
i think you are a psychopath if u think that is not meant to be
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ACDC Girl
Krazy Kitty
Joined: 25 Sep 2004
Posts: 7748
Location: Who Cares. :P
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| Sat Oct 30, 2004 5:18 pm |
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They have gay marriages in some provinces of my country too. alot of people that i know think it's stupid.
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