| Which most closely describes your veiw on this? |
| This is proof that Iraq is a complete mess, our own soldiers will not even follow orders any more. |
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25% |
[ 5 ] |
| This is an understandable incident, and the soldiers should be excused. |
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15% |
[ 3 ] |
| This is an isolated incident and the soldiers should be disciplined |
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45% |
[ 9 ] |
| Other |
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10% |
[ 2 ] |
| No opinion |
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5% |
[ 1 ] |
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| Total Votes : 20 |
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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 Sat Oct 16, 2004 8:40 pm Soldiers Refuse to Follow Orders |
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| Quote: |
Military Probing Unit in Iraq
Saturday, October 16, 2004
WASHINGTON � Relatives of soldiers who refused to deliver supplies in Iraq (search) say the troops considered the mission too dangerous, in part because their vehicles were in poor shape.
The Army is investigating up to 19 reservist members of a platoon that is part of the 343rd Quartermaster Company (search), based in Rock Hill, S.C. The unit delivers food, water and fuel on trucks in combat zones.
Convoys in Iraq are frequently subject to ambushes and roadside bombings (search).
Some of the troops' safety concerns were being addressed, military officials said. But a coalition spokesman in Baghdad said "a small number of the soldiers involved chose to express their concerns in an inappropriate manner, causing a temporary breakdown in discipline."
The coalition said in a statement Saturday that the troops are "not being guarded or detained. They are being interviewed. They're taking statements."
But the relatives said they were told the soldiers had been confined.
Teresa Hill of Dothan, Ala., who said her daughter, Amber McClenny, was among in the platoon, received a phone message from her early Thursday morning saying they had been detained by U.S. military authorities.
"This is a real, real, big emergency," McClenny said in her message. "I need you to contact someone. I mean, raise pure hell."
McClenny said in her message that her platoon had refused to go on a fuel-hauling convoy to Taji, north of Baghdad. "We had broken down trucks, non-armored vehicles and, um, we were carrying contaminated fuel. They are holding us against our will. We are now prisoners," she said.
Hill said she was later contacted by Spc. Tammy Reese in Iraq, who was calling families of the soldiers.
"She told me [Amber] was being held in a tent with armed guards," said Hill, who spoke with her daughter Friday afternoon after her release. Her daughter said they are facing punishment ranging from a reprimand to a charge of mutiny.
The incident was first reported Friday by The Clarion-Ledger newspaper in Jackson, Miss. Family members told the newspaper that several platoon members had been confined.
The supply route the soldiers were to have used, is among the most dangerous in Iraq. The military calls it "Main Supply Route Tampa." Many soldiers have been wounded there by roadside bombs and rifle and rocket-propelled grenade fire.
A commanding general has ordered the unit to undergo a "safety-maintenance stand down," during which it will conduct no further missions as the unit's vehicles are inspected, the military said.
On Wednesday, 19 members of the platoon did not show up for a scheduled 7 a.m. meeting in Tallil, in southeastern Iraq, to prepare for the fuel convoy's departure a few hours later, the military statement said.
"An initial report indicated that some of the 19 soldiers [not all] refused to participate in the convoy as directed," the statement said.
The mission was ultimately carried out by other soldiers from the 343rd, which has at least 120 soldiers, the military said.
Staff Sgt. Christopher Stokes, a 37-year-old chemical engineer from Charlotte, N.C., went to Iraq with the 343rd but had to come home because of an injury. He said reservists were given inferior equipment and tensions in the company had been building since they were deployed in February.
"It wasn't really safe," he said. "The vehicles are not all that up to par anyway. The armor that they have is homemade. It's not really armor. It's like little steel rails."
A whole unit refusing to go on a mission in a war zone would be a significant breach of military discipline. The military statement said the incident "isolated" and called the 343rd an experienced unit that performed honorable service in nine months in Iraq.
U.S. military officials said the commanding general of the 13th Corps Support Command., Brig. Gen. James E. Chambers, had appointed his deputy, Col. Darrell Roll, to investigate. An investigative team under Roll is in Tallil, questioning soldiers about the incident, the military said.
"Preliminary findings indicate that there were several contributing factors that led to the late convoy incident and alleged refusal to participate by some soldiers," the military said. "It would be inappropriate to discuss those factors while the investigation continues."
Separately, the commander of the 300th Area Support Group, listed on a military Web site as Col. Pamela Adams, has ordered a criminal inquiry to determine if any soldiers committed crimes under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and, if so, whether disciplinary measures are warranted.
The platoon has troops from Alabama, Kentucky, North Carolina, Mississippi and South Carolina, said Hill.
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:10 pm |
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Just goes to show that our military is inequipt to fight and do their duty properly.
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Defiant
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 04 Jul 2001
Posts: 15946
Location: Oregon City, OR
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| Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:06 pm |
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I voted other.
My view on this, is that the leaders of the troops arent executing this war well. Obviously this is completely different from whether the war is justified or not. I did like the first option, but felt it wasnt exact enpugh. But basically, the orders that need to be given arent being given, and the leaders sit in their cushy homes and throw orders out far away from any battle or danger, then other people pay the price for their lack of leadership.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sun Oct 17, 2004 8:57 pm |
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I don't agree with the article so much. I really think that there are weakness' in what has happened, but NO reason to not do your duty, and I don't think that there is as much to do with that as the article says. Perhaps there's political motives behind it? Truth is, I don't know. But I can say that I don't think that things are so much like that. They are better than that.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Defiant
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 04 Jul 2001
Posts: 15946
Location: Oregon City, OR
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| Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:47 am |
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They were ordered to go deliver supplies with a high chance of being attacked! What would you do in that situation RM?
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:37 pm |
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| Defiant wrote: | | They were ordered to go deliver supplies with a high chance of being attacked! What would you do in that situation RM? |
I would do my duty. Yes I would worry and be nervious and cautous, but I would do my duty.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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gilbert3729
Commander
Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 390
Location: New England, USA
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| Mon Oct 18, 2004 6:36 pm |
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i heard about a rule in the military that a soldier has the ability to refuse to follow out an instruction if there is an extremely high chance of a casulity. Does neone know if this is true?
personally i would have done the same thing that they did....that is if i am ever forced to fight in a war. Actually, if i was ever drafted, i would just go to Canada. lol. Its not that im afraid to fight...i wouldnt have a problem enlisting if it was something that i believed in...but i am against this war.
well thats my 2 cents 
-------signature-------
Soylent Green is people!!!
John Kerry...
Bringing complete sentences back to the White House.
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Defiant
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 04 Jul 2001
Posts: 15946
Location: Oregon City, OR
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| Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:04 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | Defiant wrote: | | They were ordered to go deliver supplies with a high chance of being attacked! What would you do in that situation RM? |
I would do my duty. Yes I would worry and be nervious and cautous, but I would do my duty. |
Theres no way in hell you can truthfully say that, considering you arent in that situation. You cant say *beep* until youre actually there!
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:34 pm |
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| Defiant wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | Defiant wrote: | | They were ordered to go deliver supplies with a high chance of being attacked! What would you do in that situation RM? |
I would do my duty. Yes I would worry and be nervious and cautous, but I would do my duty. |
Theres no way in hell you can truthfully say that, considering you arent in that situation. You cant say *beep* until youre actually there! |
I disagree. Even though I get remarkably nervious and would be upset at having to go there, I would do my duty. I can make that judgement.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:53 pm |
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| Defiant wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | Defiant wrote: | | They were ordered to go deliver supplies with a high chance of being attacked! What would you do in that situation RM? |
I would do my duty. Yes I would worry and be nervious and cautous, but I would do my duty. |
Theres no way in hell you can truthfully say that, considering you arent in that situation. You cant say *beep* until youre actually there! |
Well you were the one that asked him what he would do, so obviously you expected an answer...but then you get mad when he does answer? 
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:57 pm |
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| JanewayIsHott wrote: | | Defiant wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | Defiant wrote: | | They were ordered to go deliver supplies with a high chance of being attacked! What would you do in that situation RM? |
I would do my duty. Yes I would worry and be nervious and cautous, but I would do my duty. |
Theres no way in hell you can truthfully say that, considering you arent in that situation. You cant say *beep* until youre actually there! |
Well you were the one that asked him what he would do, so obviously you expected an answer...but then you get mad when he does answer? |
Yeah, but Janeway, lossen up. I don't expect him to know any better  (A joke, my friends)
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Defiant
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 04 Jul 2001
Posts: 15946
Location: Oregon City, OR
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| Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:18 pm |
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You can honestly expect to know youre reaction, until youre actually over there. And consider. You are getting constantly attacked. Your equipment is far from top of the line, in fact, its damn near out of shape.
And I asked the question expecting that he would realize its unanswerable. Never underestimate a pigheaded RM, eh? ((Meant in the nicest way possible, really))
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:04 pm |
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| Defiant wrote: | You can honestly expect to know youre reaction, until youre actually over there. And consider. You are getting constantly attacked. Your equipment is far from top of the line, in fact, its damn near out of shape.
And I asked the question expecting that he would realize its unanswerable. Never underestimate a pigheaded RM, eh? ((Meant in the nicest way possible, really)) |
Hes pigheaded because he would do his duty? Yeah...evil of him....
I don't condemn these people's actions. I can understand. Im sure its horrible there and I myself can't even imagine what its like. But if all the troops follow in this suit there will be bad trouble.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:13 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | Defiant wrote: | You can honestly expect to know youre reaction, until youre actually over there. And consider. You are getting constantly attacked. Your equipment is far from top of the line, in fact, its damn near out of shape.
And I asked the question expecting that he would realize its unanswerable. Never underestimate a pigheaded RM, eh? ((Meant in the nicest way possible, really)) |
Hes pigheaded because he would do his duty? Yeah...evil of him....
I don't condemn these people's actions. I can understand. Im sure its horrible there and I myself can't even imagine what its like. But if all the troops follow in this suit there will be bad trouble. |
There is NO excuse for this. I mean, if it was a foolish mission that nothing good would come of it, then fine. But a different platoon went on this mission that these 18 wouldn't go on--they came back fine, with a successful mission! 
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:18 pm |
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Hmm . . . yes, I see.
So those soldiers had information which led them to the conclusion that it would be unsafe to go ahead with the mission. And you condemn this.
President Bush had information which led him to the conclusion that Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction. Yet you support this . . .
Is anyone else drawing parallels, or do I just have too much spare time?
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:21 pm |
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| Hitchhiker wrote: | Hmm . . . yes, I see.
So those soldiers had information which led them to the conclusion that it would be unsafe to go ahead with the mission. And you condemn this.
President Bush had information which led him to the conclusion that Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction. Yet you support this . . .
Is anyone else drawing parallels, or do I just have too much spare time? |
Alright, sure, let me respond. EVERY MISSION is dangerous! There is ALWAYS information that says that it may be unsafe. But are you supposed to do it? Yes.
Look, this group of troops that DID do it did it, and with MUCH success (as O'Reilly interviewed another the other night)
Hence, my point is there is ALWAYS info that says that you might get hurt, etc. But you must do your job and complete the mission. This is a different circumstance than making a descision to go to war.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:22 pm |
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| Hitchhiker wrote: | Hmm . . . yes, I see.
So those soldiers had information which led them to the conclusion that it would be unsafe to go ahead with the mission. And you condemn this.
President Bush had information which led him to the conclusion that Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction. Yet you support this . . .
Is anyone else drawing parallels, or do I just have too much spare time? |
They didn't have information that let them to the conclusion it wouldn't be safe.
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:22 pm |
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Trucks that don't go faster than 65 km/h? Improperly armored vehicles?
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:26 pm |
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No I know that. I mean they weren't given specific information like Bush was about it. They saw that it wasn't fully combat ready so they didn't want to go(which is understandable). Im saying that you can't draw a parallel because it was slightly different.
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:29 pm |
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Ah, okay. Well, I do have too much spare time on my hands But parallels are better than perpendicular lines, eh.
Otherwise, I'm ambivalent on the subject. I respect what they did, since they used personal judgement and none of us knows what it's like there, but they are in the military, where a high-calibre of discipline and yes, risk-taking, is expected. Meh.
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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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| Thu Oct 21, 2004 4:59 am |
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| Defiant wrote: | You can honestly expect to know youre reaction, until youre actually over there. And consider. You are getting constantly attacked. Your equipment is far from top of the line, in fact, its damn near out of shape.
And I asked the question expecting that he would realize its unanswerable. Never underestimate a pigheaded RM, eh? ((Meant in the nicest way possible, really)) |
Defiant, please keep off the personal attacks,
| Hitchhiker wrote: | Hmm . . . yes, I see.
So those soldiers had information which led them to the conclusion that it would be unsafe to go ahead with the mission. And you condemn this.
President Bush had information which led him to the conclusion that Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction. Yet you support this . . .
Is anyone else drawing parallels, or do I just have too much spare time? |
Interesting point. With which I agree with. I'm not saying the decission to go to war was wrong or right, because we (the public) will never have information that the people who made the choice had, so can't say its right or not. And what point a war is needed varies from person to person.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:02 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | No I know that. I mean they weren't given specific information like Bush was about it. They saw that it wasn't fully combat ready so they didn't want to go(which is understandable). Im saying that you can't draw a parallel because it was slightly different. |
Slightly different! A man took an entire country to war, and a group didn't do a mission. I'd say that there is a bigger difference than that
| Hitchhiker wrote: | Ah, okay. Well, I do have too much spare time on my hands But parallels are better than perpendicular lines, eh.
Otherwise, I'm ambivalent on the subject. I respect what they did, since they used personal judgement and none of us knows what it's like there, but they are in the military, where a high-calibre of discipline and yes, risk-taking, is expected. Meh. |
How could you respect what they did, especially since other troops completed the mission with all good!?
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:53 pm |
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i support the war, and i think that the troops will follow orders whether they like to or not. i vote isolated. Remember, these troops are all volunteers, not draftees
-------signature-------
At Least In Vietnam, Bush Had An Exit Strategy
It was Bush, not Clinton, who ignored the warning signs for 9/11.
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Nate Jameson
Lieutenant
Joined: 21 Oct 2004
Posts: 144
Location: Michigan, USA
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| Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:05 pm |
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I believe that this is an isolated incident, and that only those involved should be punished for it.
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:10 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | How could you respect what they did, especially since other troops completed the mission with all good!? |
They made a personal judgement, and I respect their decision. I may or may not agree with it (I think I'm pretty much ambivalent on the whole situation), but I do respect it.
Should they be punished? Yes, they should. Captain Kirk was punished for disobeying orders (and stealing a starship!) and he saved someone's life, so really I do think that these people should be punished.
But maybe they're getting what they want. They don't want dangerous missions, if they get sent home then they'll get what they want. So are they going to be kept on, but punished a different way? (Not a sarcastic statement, and honest question).
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