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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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 Fri Oct 01, 2004 8:38 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | If you advocate Gay marriage, you should advocate polygamy, etc. |
I disagree. There is a difference between homosexuality and polygamy. It would be just like saying, "If you like to drink beer, you should like to drink wine too," or "If you like Macs then you should also like iPods."
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Fri Oct 01, 2004 8:39 pm |
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| Hitchhiker wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | If you advocate Gay marriage, you should advocate polygamy, etc. |
I disagree. There is a difference between homosexuality and polygamy. It would be just like saying, "If you like to drink beer, you should like to drink wine too," or "If you like Macs then you should also like iPods." |
No, I disagree, because this is, first of all, on a MUCH LARGER scale than that.
If you allow for one great social change such as that, you have to allow others. No exceptions.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Fri Oct 01, 2004 8:44 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | No, I disagree, because this is, first of all, on a MUCH LARGER scale than that.
If you allow for one great social change such as that, you have to allow others. No exceptions. |
Yes, you do have to allow for change. That's the point. Change is good, progress is good. Everything changes, that's the point of having a dynamic system, you stay one step ahead of entropy and corruption inherent to the static nature of some systems.
There are always exceptions to everything. Exceptions are what prove the rule, they are what make life worth living.
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Jeff Miller
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 22 Nov 2001
Posts: 23947
Location: Mental Ward for the Mentaly Unstable 6th floor, Saint John's 1615 Delaware Longview Washington 98632
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| Tue Oct 05, 2004 9:51 am |
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all I got to say is that the times are changing and so are we, we can't just hold back because some people are so paranoid about changes.
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| ~Tony Montana wrote: | | You know what you need people like me people for you to snub your nose at and point at saying there is a bad man. Well guess what This bad man is leaving. Say goodnight to the BAD MAN! |
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Tue Oct 05, 2004 11:17 am |
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| Hitchhiker wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | No, I disagree, because this is, first of all, on a MUCH LARGER scale than that.
If you allow for one great social change such as that, you have to allow others. No exceptions. |
Yes, you do have to allow for change. That's the point. Change is good, progress is good. Everything changes, that's the point of having a dynamic system, you stay one step ahead of entropy and corruption inherent to the static nature of some systems.
There are always exceptions to everything. Exceptions are what prove the rule, they are what make life worth living. |
You're completely right. Change is good. I agree. It is needed. But tell me. How is this progress?
| Jeff Miller wrote: | | all I got to say is that the times are changing and so are we, we can't just hold back because some people are so paranoid about changes. |
Um its a little more complicated than paranoia...... 
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Tue Oct 05, 2004 3:09 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | You're completely right. Change is good. I agree. It is needed. But tell me. How is this progress? |
It's progress because we're upholding another right. It is discrimination to deny people marriage based on their sexual orientation.
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Phade
Ensign
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 62
Location: Dallas, Tx, USA
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| Thu Oct 07, 2004 4:52 am |
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| Hitchhiker wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | You're completely right. Change is good. I agree. It is needed. But tell me. How is this progress? |
It's progress because we're upholding another right. It is discrimination to deny people marriage based on their sexual orientation. |
This is very true. And as I said in another thread,that I started even, if this ban gets voted in, it would be the FIRST time in our history that discrimination was voted into the Constitution. Which is wrong, since our country was not founded on that....
Safe journeys,
Phade��
P.S. for those interested, the thread I mentioned above is found here
http://www.startrekvoyager.com/viewtopic.php?t=18548
-------signature-------
"Don't try to be a great man. Just be a man, and let history make its own judgements." - Zephram Cochrane
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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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| Thu Oct 07, 2004 9:20 am |
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But there are some things that are not allowed in the constitution because of moral reasons, and also people's safety. Does this mean they should be allowed? No, the problem is that it depends on someones moral view if it is right or not.
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:34 am |
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| Jeremy wrote: | | But there are some things that are not allowed in the constitution because of moral reasons, and also people's safety. Does this mean they should be allowed? No, the problem is that it depends on someones moral view if it is right or not. |
Right, so if you think gay marriage is wrong, don't get married to a person of your gender. But why ruin other people's happiness. Letting gay couples marry isn't going to hurt you one bit.
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Birdy
Socialist
Joined: 20 Sep 2004
Posts: 13502
Location: Here.
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| Tue Oct 12, 2004 7:44 am |
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I just can't believe what I'm reading here. Exalya wrote that gay are different in their body? That the're having some kind of malfunction and therefor are gay? My god! how short-sighted can you possibly be... How can you possibly think that the're something wrong with gay people, I just can't believe that. the only difference here is their sexual preference.
And what voy416 wrote, right, gay people will dissapeare somehow? They will get extinct? Come on!!! Being gay even exists with animals!! it isn't against nature, it's perfectly normal.
Example: at my local zoo, there were 2 storks. they were trying to have babies, but it wouldn't work.. because they were both female. So the caretaker placed some eggs in their nest, and they raised them just as good as a 'normal' couple of storks did.
I can't believe how conservative some people here on this forum are. I'm like the opposite.
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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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| Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:17 am |
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I think she was meaning that the body parts aren't a natural "fit" rather than they don't share the same parts.
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Birdy
Socialist
Joined: 20 Sep 2004
Posts: 13502
Location: Here.
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| Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:33 am |
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| Jeremy wrote: | | I think she was meaning that the body parts aren't a natural "fit" rather than they don't share the same parts. |
Well, even if she meant that, I still think it's ridiculous. You don't fit together just because your bodyparts don't fit?? What about your mind? Doesn't everyone say it's not all about appereance?...
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:15 pm |
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| Belanna1985 wrote: | I just can't believe what I'm reading here. Exalya wrote that gay are different in their body? That the're having some kind of malfunction and therefor are gay? My god! how short-sighted can you possibly be... How can you possibly think that the're something wrong with gay people, I just can't believe that. the only difference here is their sexual preference.
And what voy416 wrote, right, gay people will dissapeare somehow? They will get extinct? Come on!!! Being gay even exists with animals!! it isn't against nature, it's perfectly normal.
Example: at my local zoo, there were 2 storks. they were trying to have babies, but it wouldn't work.. because they were both female. So the caretaker placed some eggs in their nest, and they raised them just as good as a 'normal' couple of storks did.
I can't believe how conservative some people here on this forum are. I'm like the opposite. |
...fit in their...their what? WHERE did I say that? Would you point it out so I can fix that? I never mentioned anyone's body, my dear.  I don't know where in the HECK you got that, but it wasn't from me.
But yes. I do think there is something wrong with gay people, alright? This is what I have been trying to avoid saying, but hey, you've brought it up. Yes. I think they should get treatment for it. Happy now? I have nothing personally against gay people. My gosh, I HANG OUT WITH THEM. I simply. Believe. That something. Is not right. My friends understand this and they are not angered by it. I pray for them, really, I do. It's not some "I'm better than them because they're gay and I'm not" thing. It can be a choice, sometimes, but I also think it's very possibly a disorder. Yeah, so it's in animals. I would probably call it a disorder there, too. It's not natural. It's not biologically compatible, it is not how people are supposed to act. A lot of gays seemed to have been abused as kids. (At least, the ones I've known) Or raised strangely, etc. That isn't their fault, and it's very sad. The thought of being gay is absolutely abhorrent to me, personally. Unnatural, just wrong. And yeah, so it's wrong to me personally. Sorry if it conflicts with your ideas, but it doesn't make my opinion any less valid. I can see where you're coming from, I simply don't agree.
There ya' go.
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Not the doctor... yet
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Phade
Ensign
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 62
Location: Dallas, Tx, USA
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| Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:57 pm |
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| Exalya wrote: |
...fit in their...their what? WHERE did I say that? Would you point it out so I can fix that? I never mentioned anyone's body, my dear. I don't know where in the HECK you got that, but it wasn't from me.
But yes. I do think there is something wrong with gay people, alright? This is what I have been trying to avoid saying, but hey, you've brought it up. Yes. I think they should get treatment for it. Happy now? I have nothing personally against gay people. My gosh, I HANG OUT WITH THEM. I simply. Believe. That something. Is not right. My friends understand this and they are not angered by it. I pray for them, really, I do. It's not some "I'm better than them because they're gay and I'm not" thing. It can be a choice, sometimes, but I also think it's very possibly a disorder. Yeah, so it's in animals. I would probably call it a disorder there, too. It's not natural. It's not biologically compatible, it is not how people are supposed to act. A lot of gays seemed to have been abused as kids. (At least, the ones I've known) Or raised strangely, etc. That isn't their fault, and it's very sad. The thought of being gay is absolutely abhorrent to me, personally. Unnatural, just wrong. And yeah, so it's wrong to me personally. Sorry if it conflicts with your ideas, but it doesn't make my opinion any less valid. I can see where you're coming from, I simply don't agree.
There ya' go. |
Ok...I read your post a ways back, where you said it was a disorder, and didn't respond, but now you have said it again. I can't let it go again. First, I would like to say, that I realise this is your opinion, and I respect that you stated it. However, I totally disagree. I also respect that you say you have nothing against gays.
Treatement for it?!? That would be like me telling you to get treatment for being heterosexual. Its simply who you are, it can't be changed with treatment. Yeah, there are those people who claim they have been "cured" and what not, but that is a bunch of hogwash. Those that are "cured" are not gay...they are the ones who chose to be this way for what ever reason (to get attention, to rebel, to cause anguish, whatever); or they are people who said they were "cured" to prove to others that it can be done (propaganda). I cannot be cured of something that is just a part of me; it'd be like trying to cure me of having brown hair.
Its been proven years ago that it is not a disorder. I has actually been removed from psychological texts, etc.. (I think offically in 1973) because it was found NOT to be disorder of any kind. IF I am reading what you stated properly, I am thinking that you are basing your thoughts that it is wrong on your religious beliefs, more than truly thinkin it is a disorder. Which is fine, I am not going to debate religous aspects of this; except to say that the same God that made you, made me as well. Faith is a strong thing with people, and I can respect that, and respect your conviction to stay true to it.
As for the last point: being abused, raised strangley. I see you said a lot; which is good, since you didn't say nor imply all.  I will just say (so that you will know at least one) that I was NOT abused in any way. I had very loving, caring parents, who were religious. (I say were, beacause they are both gone now.) I was raised in a Baptist/Christian household, with morals, and truht and honesty instilled in me. Raised to believe in the sanctity of all life, and respect others. Treat others as you would want them to treat you. So, the point is: I wasn't raised strangely, or abused, and yet I am still gay. Not that I am downplaying your friends' suffering, just pointing out the other side of it.
I can understand that you find it abhorrent, and respect your honesty in stating that. It takes alot to say something that isn't seen as nice, or politically correct. I can say that I respect your thoughts and opinions, even though I obviously disagree with them. And you are right, by the way, just becasue they conflict with my beliefs, that does not make them any less valid.
Thanks for your time...
Safe journeys...
-------signature-------
"Don't try to be a great man. Just be a man, and let history make its own judgements." - Zephram Cochrane
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:08 pm |
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Well-composed argument, I simply must say, and give you credit. I may not agree with you, but you state your opinion well. Must let that be known. Now I continue.
I still disagree, and yes, my religion has a lot to do with it. That can't be helped. When a person truly believes in their religion, it is no longer their 'Religion's' views. It is a part of them, and what they sincerely believe. As it is with me. However, when dealing with people who disagree, the religion defense does nothing. I'm trying to leave that out of my arguments lately. I do not believe that it is something that one is born with, quite frankly, I see it as something that develops over time. I'm not anti-gay, I'm not going to go on a crusade to prove that it's not natural, because I'm rational, and I know that I'd probably be hit over the head repetitively and be called discriminating. (This leads to the subject of how people can't truly say what they believe for fear of being "politically incorrect", but I won't go there right now ) I do seriously consider your point, however, and if it could ever be diehard proven to me that it was a natural occurrence, there's a very good chance I'd change my opinion. But as it is, I see no evidence that it's natural, so I'm sticking with my original hypothesis.
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Phade
Ensign
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 62
Location: Dallas, Tx, USA
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| Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:25 pm |
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Thank you Exalya, I appreciate the kind words. I, too, think you composed your arguements well.
And of course I still disagree but I can now understand more fully where you "are coming from". Its nice to know as well, that you won't be crusading against me. Its nice to know as well, that you thought about what I said, and considered it. It is very refreshing to me to hear you say that if you were proven wrong you would change your views. I am most impressed actually. This has been enlightening to me as well. Methinks, I like you.
As for the debate; well I don't have anything further to add at the moment..
Safe journeys,...
-------signature-------
"Don't try to be a great man. Just be a man, and let history make its own judgements." - Zephram Cochrane
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voy416
Captain
Joined: 28 Oct 2001
Posts: 631
Location: Rock Bottom
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| Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:37 pm |
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OK my point is let gay people marry what the hell!!!! not like it is going to kill the planet. who cares about there sexual preference
and for the people who do not like it WHY the hell do u care your not gay.it not like your going to be put in a room wit nothin but gay people
one thing to make clear the USA is based on religious beliefs all of it is
anything that the church does not like they will turn it in to a religious thing like if you are gay you will go to hell
and another thing will people stop saying being gay is a disorder jezzzz you cannot snap your fingers and it goes away or pop a pill and BAM your str8
NO it is a feeling and it takes alot of will power to say you are gay now and days
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To Be Are Not To Be......Is That Really The
Question
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gilbert3729
Commander
Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 390
Location: New England, USA
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| Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:22 pm |
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| voy416 wrote: | OK my point is let gay people marry what the hell!!!! not like it is going to kill the planet. who cares about there sexual preference
and for the people who do not like it WHY the hell do u care your not gay.it not like your going to be put in a room wit nothin but gay people
one thing to make clear the USA is based on religious beliefs all of it is
anything that the church does not like they will turn it in to a religious thing like if you are gay you will go to hell
and another thing will people stop saying being gay is a disorder jezzzz you cannot snap your fingers and it goes away or pop a pill and BAM your str8
NO it is a feeling and it takes alot of will power to say you are gay now and days
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i completly agree with this. It seems like the people who are against gay rights are forgetting what this country is all about. FREEDOM
honestly, what is the big deal. "the saintity of marriage will be tainted"
That is complete nonsence. If anything it will make marrage more important because it will include everyone. BTW the "saintity of marrage" is a dying ideal. Statistics show that people nowadays do not take marrage seriously. Divorce rates have increased dramatically. So i ask, what is the saintity of marrage?
On the issue about changes:
change is very good. Without it we would still be using leaches as the cure for everything, we would be unable to travel, anywhere, and people would only live upto their thirties. Change is good
ok i just lost my train of thought, lol. kinda watching the sox - yankees game. GO SOX
ANYWAYS........that is my 2 cents on this topic
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John Kerry...
Bringing complete sentences back to the White House.
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Five - seveN
Rear Admiral
Joined: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 3567
Location: Shadow Moon
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| Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:16 am |
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So. Exalya, RM, if you were standing in front of me now, I would have reduced you to two miserable piles of dust. You are talking absolute $hit. I'm sorry, I don't seem to find another way to put it. Being gay a disorder? The saintity of marriage? What the hell are you talking about? Please tell me why you'd care if gay marriage is allowed. Will gay marriage hurt you? Do you think that all gays in your vicinity will shoot you the second gay marriage is allowed? I don't think so. And RM, please explain why you'd have to allow polygamy (which I think is... not so good at all) if you allow gay marriage? That is just... nonsense. It is, indeed, like saying "We're going to allow women to vote. -No!! Because then you'd have to let rats vote too!"
So. Your opinion would be... (actually, most probably not) appreciated.
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Tue Oct 19, 2004 12:14 pm |
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They're already starting to push polygamy. They argue if you allow one "alternative" lifestyle, you allow another. And no, I highly doubt you would have reduced me to a "pile of dust." Klingons don't crumble easily.
So, my opinion is unpopular with you. I believe the only language I can get through to you would be "Live with it." I've stated my opinion repetitively, and I'm done. I find it very amusing how some liberals (Not all, mind you--not nearly, but apparently you, Five-Seven) can be so open minded and accepting of people, yet when it comes to someone else's opinions, I/we cannot have them. Bit of a contradiction, don't you think? The most politically correct person in the world would be a liberal, gay atheist. (No offense to anyone, mind) Well, I'm none of the above, and I apologize. Now, you can pick this apart as you like. I see no reason to continue pounding a point to you which you will not listen to, and that I have already tried to state. Good day, and God Bless.
-------signature-------
Not the doctor... yet
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Five - seveN
Rear Admiral
Joined: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 3567
Location: Shadow Moon
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| Wed Oct 20, 2004 8:27 am |
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(I'm Hirogen, don't mess with me, )
But, okay, I see your point. I just read your post and thought 'this is sooo absolutely  '... Well, okay, I'll live with it. I wrote that because what you're thinking is probably the 100% opposite of what I'm thinking. You just got me so mad. But I still don't understand why you'd need to allow polygamy if you allow gay marriage.
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TrekkieMage
Office Junkie
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 5335
Location: Hiding
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| Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:57 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | Hitchhiker wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | If you advocate Gay marriage, you should advocate polygamy, etc. |
I disagree. There is a difference between homosexuality and polygamy. It would be just like saying, "If you like to drink beer, you should like to drink wine too," or "If you like Macs then you should also like iPods." |
No, I disagree, because this is, first of all, on a MUCH LARGER scale than that.
If you allow for one great social change such as that, you have to allow others. No exceptions. |
Again, my two cents:
I believe you should be able to practice whatever you believe in so long as it doesn't severly contradict basic morals, like human sacrifice.
Polygamy: so long as it is concentual by all people involved, all the wives must agree to it. Same goes for multiple husbands (never heard of it being practiced, but thought I'd through it in anyway)
Gay/Lesbian Marriage: All for it. It seems that most heterosexual marrages haven't been lasting too long in recent years, the rate of divorce has skyrocketed. I know gay couples who have been together for over 20 years! Longer than my parents!
For the record: trying to enforce the status quo hasn't worked very well through out history. Progress has almost always won.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:20 pm |
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I say just give them what they want. Thats right. Let them get married. Allow them the benefits and the acknowledgments that come with marriage. BUT I don't want to hear these....people complain again! They get everything they want and more but only complain. They act like spoiled children and we are supposed to give them the world because they wanted to shove objects into their a^#es. They want special privledges at work and in general in society. Guess what? Not going to get them. You want equal? You get equal and nothing else. Im also tired of the hypocrisy of the Gays. They say "You should respect us and our choices!" but when you say "I don't agree but will respect them", then you are branded a homophobe and a bastard. One sided isn't it? Im sick of it. Let them have this and nothing else. If they complain again then revoke every right that they were given. If they still complain then deny them basic Human rights.
I know I know. Im going to get a lot of grief for this post but thats how I feel. I agree they are people and want to get married and just have equal rights. We should and will give it to them. But im sick of the hypocrisy and the more than equal rights for them talks.
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:21 pm |
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Indeed, it is one-sided, because history is rewritten by the victors, and more importantly, the minority tends to rule
Sure, the majority makes the decisions, but when it comes to minority rights (which must be respected of course) the majority often over-compensates.
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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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| Thu Oct 21, 2004 4:53 am |
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| Founder wrote: | Im also tired of the hypocrisy of the Gays. They say "You should respect us and our choices!" but when you say "I don't agree but will respect them", then you are branded a homophobe and a *beep*. One sided isn't it? Im sick of it.
I know I know. Im going to get a lot of grief for this post but thats how I feel. I agree they are people and want to get married and just have equal rights. We should and will give it to them. But im sick of the hypocrisy and the more than equal rights for them talks. |
Actually I would agree with you about the bit I've quoted above. It's not just gays, but other minorties as well. I'm not saying they don't deserve rights, but usually the rights they get are over the top.
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