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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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 Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:08 pm |
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Alright, I was looking for the SVFT website on google, I don't remember what the website name is, and I found this. It's a small article, but it's some good reading and it explains some things.
http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Swift_Boat_Veterans_for_Truth
Also RM, You keep complaining about Moveon.org. Have you read about how moveon started?
| Quote: | Who started MoveOn?
MoveOn was started by Joan Blades and Wes Boyd, two Silicon Valley entrepreneurs. Although neither had experience in politics, they shared deep frustration with the partisan warfare in Washington D.C. and the ridiculous waste of our nation's focus at the time of the impeachment mess. On September 18th 1998, they launched an online petition to "Censure President Clinton and Move On to Pressing Issues Facing the Nation." Within days they had hundreds of thousands of individuals signed up, and began looking for ways these voices could be heard. |
BTW, I think you already know that Move on is a 527. so if you want it to stop, support stopping 527's.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:16 pm |
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| Link, the Hero of Time wrote: | | BTW, I think you already know that Move on is a 527. so if you want it to stop, support stopping 527's. |
Do you support stopping 527s? And I don't support stopping them, I just don't like what they do. And yes, that history may be true, but this is now the NUMBER ONE attack org against the President, and what they are doing is wrong and they've been changed dramatically. I don't like what they're doing, but they have a right to be idiots.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:19 pm |
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I thought George Soros was the man behind Move On...
Either way, Move On has fradulent and skewed info, swiftvets are actually people who were there, and who saw things, and are telling their side of the story.
As for stopping 527s I actually have to disagree with the president, so long as someone is not spreading slander or libel, they're entitled to say who they support, and to say why, in whichever media they can.
Last edited by LightningBoy on Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:20 pm |
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| LightningBoy wrote: | I thought George Soros was the man behind Move On...
Either way, Move On has fradulent and skewed info, swiftvets are actually people who were there, and who saw things, and are telling their side of the story. |
Now Soros IS the leader, or has at least put MILLIONS of dollars into it. Otherwise, I agree with you.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:20 pm |
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I have heard stories some of these "vets" were paid off. Any truth in that anyone?
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:23 pm |
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| JanewayIsHott wrote: | | I have heard stories some of these "vets" were paid off. Any truth in that anyone? |
I strongly do NOT believe that, and I've yet to hear of it until now.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:46 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: |
Do you support stopping 527s? |
Anything that sits there and spouts false information needs to be stopped, so I guess that means Yes.
Or do you believe that as long as they spout false claims against your opponent they should be allowed?
And I've also heard that many were paid off, though I don't believe it I do believe that most lied because they are still mad at Kerry for what he said after he returned.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:59 pm |
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So 241 out of 250 men lied because of an emotional response.... Not buying it. Waaaaaaay too many problems with Kerry's "stories". Vietnam Veterans feel so strongly about what he says that they pay out the kind of money they did to put out an ad, when they could have most definitely used it to care for themselves, because, as we know, vet benefits aren't all they could be.
That's one hell of an emotional response, especially 35 years later.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:25 pm |
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| Link, the Hero of Time wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: |
Do you support stopping 527s? |
Anything that sits there and spouts false information needs to be stopped, so I guess that means Yes.
Or do you believe that as long as they spout false claims against your opponent they should be allowed?
And I've also heard that many were paid off, though I don't believe it I do believe that most lied because they are still mad at Kerry for what he said after he returned. |
Well, yes, false information has to be stopped, can't disagree with that, but then again I have denounced the 1st ad, but they have their right to speak out about it.
And Bush hasn't made false claims about Kerry, btw.
| Quote: | So 241 out of 250 men lied because of an emotional response.... Not buying it. Waaaaaaay too many problems with Kerry's "stories". Vietnam Veterans feel so strongly about what he says that they pay out the kind of money they did to put out an ad, when they could have most definitely used it to care for themselves, because, as we know, vet benefits aren't all they could be.
That's one hell of an emotional response, especially 35 years later. |
Agreed. Good point.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Kyre
Commodore
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 1263
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| Thu Aug 26, 2004 11:29 am |
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| Theresa wrote: | | "Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it." Tell me, which one has learned from the past, and which one is trying to twist it to their advantage. IMO, you are very short sighted if you think that something that happened less than forty years ago has no bearing now. The rest of the world sure runs their mouths enough about it. Just ask Sean. |
I'm not saying that whatever happened to these two is not important, because it is, although in my opinion on a far less public level. I'm just saying that it shouldn't decide who becomes president. There are far more obvious issues (which I don't need to state).
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:02 pm |
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And on that principle, I agree. But it's moved far beyond that now. One of the candidates thinks that the American public are all fools, to whom he can lie. Would you want such a man in office?
I know all politicians lie, but this is an entirely new level here.
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And some have to live with our scars
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Five - seveN
Rear Admiral
Joined: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 3567
Location: Shadow Moon
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| Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:24 pm |
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"I'm a poor lonesome cowboy...."
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Seven of Nine
Sammie's Mammy
Joined: 16 Jun 2001
Posts: 7871
Location: North East England
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| Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:55 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | And on that principle, I agree. But it's moved far beyond that now. One of the candidates thinks that the American public are all fools, to whom he can lie. Would you want such a man in office?
I know all politicians lie, but this is an entirely new level here. |
I'm sooo glad there's more than two parties to choose from here... you don't get much of a choice over there, but of the two, I think I'd want Bush. At least he knows how funny he is 
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Aug 26, 2004 5:02 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | And on that principle, I agree. But it's moved far beyond that now. One of the candidates thinks that the American public are all fools, to whom he can lie. Would you want such a man in office?
I know all politicians lie, but this is an entirely new level here. |
Agreed.
| Seven of Nine wrote: | | Theresa wrote: | And on that principle, I agree. But it's moved far beyond that now. One of the candidates thinks that the American public are all fools, to whom he can lie. Would you want such a man in office?
I know all politicians lie, but this is an entirely new level here. |
I'm sooo glad there's more than two parties to choose from here... you don't get much of a choice over there, but of the two, I think I'd want Bush. At least he knows how funny he is |
Funny?
And you would vote BUSH! My God, has hell frozen over? 
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Thu Aug 26, 2004 9:39 pm |
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There are more than two parties. All you have to do is get your party recognized.
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Seven of Nine
Sammie's Mammy
Joined: 16 Jun 2001
Posts: 7871
Location: North East England
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| Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:47 am |
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Whoops, what I meant is there are only two parties with any chance of winning
And if I had to choose between Kerry and Bush, yes, I'd vote Bush. (If there was any decent alternative though, I'd vote for them instead).
I was talking about the time he compared himself to Arnie. That was enough proof for me 
(And funny people are good. Most of the time.)
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Defiant
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 04 Jul 2001
Posts: 15946
Location: Oregon City, OR
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| Fri Aug 27, 2004 5:35 am Re: Bush: Stop Swift Boat Ads |
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| JanewayIsHott wrote: | | Quote: |
Kerry, Bush in Political Firefight
Monday, August 23, 2004
WASHINGTON � President Bush (search) said Monday that a veterans' group should stop airing television ads criticizing John Kerry's (search) war record.
Bush said ads from Swift Boat Veterans for Truth (search), a 527 group named after its status in the tax code, should be pulled. The call from Bush could open him up to charges that the Bush-Cheney campaign is coordinating with an unregulated political organization.
"That means that ad and every other ad. I don't believe we ought to have 527s. I think they're bad for the system," Bush said on Monday in Crawford, Texas. "I frankly thought we'd gotten rid of it when I signed McCain-Feingold" campaign finance reform.
Bush said that he thought Kerry "served admirably and he ought to be proud of his record," but it remains undecided whether that will extinguish the political firefight that has built over Kerry's service in Vietnam.
Consider the latest:
� Former Sen. Bob Dole (search) � the Republicans' 1996 presidential nominee � suggested Sunday that Kerry apologize for past testimony before Congress about alleged atrocities during the Vietnam War. He joined critics of the Democratic presidential candidate who say he received an early exit from combat for "superficial wounds."
� On Monday, Democratic vice presidential candidate John Edwards said Bush should call for the group to remove the ad. He called Bush's decision to do so a "test of character" for the president. After Bush's comments, Edwards expressed disappointment.
"The moment of truth came and went, and the President still couldn't bring himself to do the right thing," he said.
� Also on Monday, Democrats arranged for reporters a conference call with Navy swift boat officers Rich McCann, Jim Russell and Rich Baker, who said Kerry acted honorably and bravely. In a separate news conference in Harrisburg, Pa., crewmate Del Sandusky said he personally witnessed the battle action for which Kerry received Silver and Bronze stars and two of his three Purple Hearts.
"He deserved every one of his medals," Sandusky, a retired computer repairman who drove Kerry's boat for nearly three months.
� On Sunday, the Kerry campaign released a new ad accusing the president of backing Swift Boat Veterans for Truth (search), the group which has released a series of spots calling into question Kerry's heroism. In the Kerry ad, the narrator claims that families are losing jobs and health care while "George Bush's campaign supports a front group attacking John Kerry's military record." The ad calls the attacks "smears" and "lies."
� In response to the Kerry ad, the Bush campaign sent a letter to television station managers Monday "to set the record straight." The Bush campaign letter "flatly rejects this baseless allegation of illegal coordination between Bush-Cheney '04 and a group called Swiftboat Veterans for Truth."
Kerry senior adviser Michael Meehan told FOX News that Bush didn't do what Kerry implored because he didn't denounce the Swift boat ads specifically, but called for an end to all 527 ads.
The uproar over Kerry's service has dominated much of the political news since the Democratic senator from Massachusetts accepted his party's presidential nomination with a speech that centered on his biography and his military service.
Kerry spent four months in Vietnam leading a "swift boat" crew but was sent home after accumulating his third Purple Heart for injuries he received.
"Swift boat" was the common term in Vietnam for the small U.S. Navy patrol boat officially known as a Patrol Craft Fast (search), or PCF.
The political attacks on Kerry have been twofold. First, critics say Kerry embellished his Vietnam record. Second, they say Kerry disrespected his fellow veterans when he returned home and testified before Congress about what he described as "atrocities" being committed by Americans in combat.
Kerry defender and National Director of Veterans for Kerry (search) John Hurley called the Swift Boat Vets' ads "dishonest and dishonorable."
"This is a Republican smear campaign. ... The United States Navy awarded John Kerry a Silver Star, a Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts. Every single man who served under his command, when he won those awards, supports John Kerry," Hurley told FOX News Sunday, adding that all the members of the Swift Boat group except for one never met Kerry in Vietnam.
That one sailor, Van Odell, a member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, said Kerry was not under enemy fire, as the "after-action report" that earned him his Bronze Star states.
"I do not have a document that says that," Odell admitted, adding that no one else at the scene of the fight thought it was medal-worthy. "I was up at the highest point. I could see all around. I could see what was going on. I fired a few hundred rounds when the mine first went off. And after that we quit firing because � and then we spent an hour in the kill zone, and nobody was shot or wounded.
"None of us knew that he even got the Bronze Star. None of us knew that any of this was going on. We didn't know until after he left about the Purple Heart. And I didn't know about his Bronze Star until about three months ago that they got for this action," he told FOX News Sunday.
Odell also rejected charges that the organization he represents is funded by people who have worked in conjunction with the Republican Party.
"Our message is our message, and no one tells us what to say," Odell said.
Federal law prohibits any direct involvement between private organizations, known as 527s, and anyone connected to a presidential campaign. On Sunday, the Bush campaign stated that it had released from volunteer duty a campaign worker who served in Vietnam and appears in one of the Swift Boat ads. The campaign said Col.Ken Cordier (search) failed to disclose his involvement with the group.
Democrats complain that the Republican Party's involvement goes much deeper than that.
The swift boat group clearly "is coordinated with the Bush Cheney campaign," said Angelo Genova, attorney for the Democratic Party. There is "direct evidence of overlapping consultants, overlapping fund-raisers. ... Here we have Texas supporters of the president involved. Karl Rove himself has been implicated."
Jan Baran, former general counsel for the Republican National Committee, dismissed these charges. "All of the factual allegations regarding overlap under FEC regulations are basically superficial."
All the back-and-forth is disappointing Sen. Joe Lieberman (search), D-Conn., the 2000 Democratic vice presidential candidate. He told FOX News Sunday that Kerry's war record has consumed all the attention while more important issues in the presidential campaign are being ignored.
"What really infuriates me and amazes me is that we're spending this much time and energy debating what happened 35 years ago instead of talking more about the war on terrorism we're in today, about our health care, education, environment, economic problems, and what George Bush and John Kerry are going to do for the next four years. That's what we ought to be debating."
Fox News' Steve Centanni and Sharon Kehnemui contributed to this report.
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Wait a minute, he avoided the issue completely, and didnt say anything about the ads.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Fri Aug 27, 2004 7:50 am |
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He said we ought not to have 527's...that pretty much covers the issue right there.... 
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Fri Aug 27, 2004 10:23 am |
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Exactly. And he's said repeatedly to drop it. Immediately after Bush said that, we see Kerry at a campaign stop, talking about what? Come on, one guess.
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And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Fri Aug 27, 2004 6:01 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | | Exactly. And he's said repeatedly to drop it. Immediately after Bush said that, we see Kerry at a campaign stop, talking about what? Come on, one guess. |
Vietnam!
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Defiant
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 04 Jul 2001
Posts: 15946
Location: Oregon City, OR
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| Fri Aug 27, 2004 11:02 pm |
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No, he never addressed the specific ad, which means he is trying to make it look like he denies it, but also trying to make it look like he doesnt. Hes trying to not piss anyone off, and being a *beep*.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Fri Aug 27, 2004 11:12 pm |
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What do you call Farenheight 9/11...is that not the BIGGEST 527 you have ever seen!!!! Maybe Moore and Kerry have ties . Who knows. There are extremists on both sides. The American people should just ignore them and listen to the candidates...this is just another thing for democrats to bitch about.
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Defiant
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 04 Jul 2001
Posts: 15946
Location: Oregon City, OR
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| Fri Aug 27, 2004 11:15 pm |
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Yah, well its an outright lie. They were all repeated what theyd heard. There is only one person left that was on the mission with Kerry, he lives in Oregon. He was on the news, and quoted as saying that he just repeated what they told him to.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Fri Aug 27, 2004 11:15 pm |
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| JanewayIsHott wrote: | | What do you call Farenheight 9/11...is that not the BIGGEST 527 you have ever seen!!!! Maybe Moore and Kerry have ties . Who knows. There are extremists on both sides. The American people should just ignore them and listen to the candidates...this is just another thing for democrats to *beep* about. |
Agreed, but actually MoveOn.org is the BIGGEST 527, and Soros, the recent leader of it, has been pouring MILLIONS of dollars into the Kerry campaign.
And did you know that 87% of 527 funds are going to DEMOCRATS? Sean Hannity was talking about that yesterday on his radio show.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Defiant
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 04 Jul 2001
Posts: 15946
Location: Oregon City, OR
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| Fri Aug 27, 2004 11:36 pm |
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I have no idea what a "527" is. Hell, i'll admit it. Make fun of me. I dont care, just tell me what it means!
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