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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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 Wed Aug 18, 2004 7:36 am Evolution/Relgion (Split from Death Penalty, as off topic) |
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| Gondor Girl wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | The church agrees with the theory, which would mean it doesn't entirely accept (fully, 100%, totally, etc.) that the first five books of the bible as perfectly true, that was my only point.
And how can you say that the universe has only been around for "thousands of years", as they've been able to date the Earth at over 4 billion? |
First of all, I am not Catholic. There is a church out there called Protestantism. I am a Presbyterian which is a faction of Protestantism. The Presbyterian Church, heck, the majority of Protestantism doesn't accept the evolutionary theory. You are speaking of the Catholic church as if it's the only church out there. I've got news. It's not. The Protestant community, for the most part, does believe entirely in the Pentateuch along with the rest of the Bible.
Secondly, I doubt that Founder was talking about "of all the planets in this solar system it's amazing we just so happened to be on this one?" I think he was more referring to the fact that, of all the places this planet could have been positioned, it's amazing that it just so happened to be right in the perfect place. A foot further away, we'd be freezing, a foot closer, we'd be burning. There are a heck of a lot of places that this planet could have been and it ended up at just the right distance, and that people believe it was a coincidence is what I find the most amazing part.
Finally, how exactly have they dated the earth? Hmm? How exactly do you know that they are correct in their estimations? Were these scientists here during these "billions" of years? Where has this fabled Geologic Collumn been found in it's entirety on this planet? Until you can give me evidence other than "scientists said..." I shall continue to sit firmly in my beliefs. And that belief is: Screw what the scientists say. They're just pulling this stuff out of their butts. There are so many astronomical and geological proofs that oppose the Big Bang and Evolutionary theories. Heavens! Where are these missing links? If they find those, they're not duds, and they're not far-fetched (such as "Lucy") then I'll believe them. |
You can date rocks using radioactive decay.
| Quote: | A chemical element consists of atoms with a specific number of protons in their nuclei but different atomic weights owing to variations in the number of neutrons. Atoms of the same element with differing atomic weights are called isotopes. Radioactive decay is a spontaneous process in which an isotope (the parent) loses particles from its nucleus to form an isotope of a new element (the daughter). The rate of decay is conveniently expressed in terms of an isotope's half-life, or the time it takes for one-half of a particular radioactive isotope in a sample to decay. Most radioactive isotopes have rapid rates of decay (that is, short half-lives) and lose their radioactivity within a few days or years. Some isotopes, however, decay slowly, and several of these are used as geologic clocks. The parent isotopes and corresponding daughter products most commonly used to determine the ages of ancient rocks are listed below:...
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Secondly, as the person above me posted, God breathed life into a human...how do you know when that was...it could have been during the process of evolution. Do you really think that time has any meaning to God anyways? Hell, a year that we measure isn't even the same as a year on Jupiter or any other planet for that matter. Our version of a year doesn't even match that of other planets...therefore...who knows about God.... Plus, you can't actually measure time. If you think about that, the statement contradicts itself. You can't measure something that is infinite. We mark time kind of, and measure the distance between the two points. Ok rambling now...gotta go to school to. 
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:04 pm |
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This getting offtopic, but I'm an idiot anyway. If someone wants to debate this further (although there's not much to debate) then maybe they could make a new topic:
There are two main theories which deal with the pre-Big-Bang. The older is that at the moment before the Big Bang, there was a singularity, where the theory of General Relativity breaks down. If this is true, we cannot determine what happened before the Big Bang because conventional physics no longer have any meaning.
The second theory, a newly proposed one, is that the universe at the end of a previous life-cycle collided with another universe, both of these universes residing upon a higher dimension. The collision annihilated both universes, sparking a new Big Bang which created our universe. Our universe continues to expand, then it collided again, and so on.
Evolution and the Big Bang are two separate theories, and yes, they are just theories. But neither of them precludes the existence of a supreme being who controls the universe--even a supreme being may use methods.
Like I mentioned before, I read an essay that uses the theories of Relativity to explain how seven days in the Bible corresponded to the 12-15 billion year age of the universe, and it made quite a lot of sense.
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:04 pm |
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| Gondor Girl wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | The church agrees with the theory, which would mean it doesn't entirely accept (fully, 100%, totally, etc.) that the first five books of the bible as perfectly true, that was my only point.
And how can you say that the universe has only been around for "thousands of years", as they've been able to date the Earth at over 4 billion? |
First of all, I am not Catholic. There is a church out there called Protestantism. I am a Presbyterian which is a faction of Protestantism. The Presbyterian Church, heck, the majority of Protestantism doesn't accept the evolutionary theory. You are speaking of the Catholic church as if it's the only church out there. I've got news. It's not. The Protestant community, for the most part, does believe entirely in the Pentateuch along with the rest of the Bible |
| GondorGirl wrote: | | Maybe some small group of wierd Christians don't accept the Pentateuch, but on the whole, Christians believe every word of the entire Bible, including the Pentateuch |
That is what I'm responding to. "On the whole," isn't a very accurate statement, and that's what I'm commenting on.
| GondorGirl wrote: | | Secondly, I doubt that Founder was talking about "of all the planets in this solar system it's amazing we just so happened to be on this one?" I think he was more referring to the fact that, of all the places this planet could have been positioned, it's amazing that it just so happened to be right in the perfect place. A foot further away, we'd be freezing, a foot closer, we'd be burning. There are a heck of a lot of places that this planet could have been and it ended up at just the right distance, and that people believe it was a coincidence is what I find the most amazing part. |
It doesn't seem all that amazing to me. The Earth was here for billions of years, and then because of how it was positioned, life was possible on it. I'd say that the idea of a "higher being" in control of the entire universe sounds much more unplausible
| GondorGirl wrote: | | Finally, how exactly have they dated the earth? Hmm? How exactly do you know that they are correct in their estimations? Were these scientists here during these "billions" of years? Where has this fabled Geologic Collumn been found in it's entirety on this planet? Until you can give me evidence other than "scientists said..." I shall continue to sit firmly in my beliefs. And that belief is: Screw what the scientists say. They're just pulling this stuff out of their butts. There are so many astronomical and geological proofs that oppose the Big Bang and Evolutionary theories. Heavens! Where are these missing links? If they find those, they're not duds, and they're not far-fetched (such as "Lucy") then I'll believe them. |
| Quote: | The ages of Earth and Moon rocks and of meteorites are measured by the decay of long-lived radioactive isotopes of elements that occur naturally in rocks and minerals and that decay with half lives of 700 million to more than 100 billion years to stable isotopes of other elements. These dating techniques, which are firmly grounded in physics and are known collectively as radiometric dating, are used to measure the last time that the rock being dated was either melted or disturbed sufficiently to rehomogenize its radioactive elements.
Ancient rocks exceeding 3.5 billion years in age are found on all of Earth's continents. |
There's scientific proof right there, it all works. They've used the same system before, and it's been shown to work correctly.
| GhostOfAMemory wrote: | | First of all, what is the "Pentateuch"??? |
The first five books of the bible (in the OT).
| GhostOfAMemory wrote: | | Anyways, I don't understand how anyone who has read their bible can believe in evolution. The bible clearly states that God made a man's body out of dirt and breathed life into it; then later took a rib from that body and made a womans body, where humans came from. There are no apes involved in this. Apes have always been apes, since God made them apes, and humans have always been human. Where in the bible does it even SUGGEST that humans could possibly have been descended from animals? The idea is utterly rediculous. |
Not to all religious beliefs, including one of the largest in the world. Evolution works out in how you said, working with the bible. "God" created man and woman. It never said what species they were, it never said that they were definitely human. Who's to say "god" didn't create a male and female ape, which evolved? And it doesn't suggest it, it doesn't need to.
| GhostOfAMemory wrote: | | I agree that the "days" mentioned COULD be symbolic, as the bible says that a thousand years is as a day to God. But how am I to know how long the universe has been here? |
You don't have to know to agree with evolution or the big bang.
| GhostOfAMemory wrote: | I may be msitaken, but isn't the whole point of the big bang theory that some particles magically rubbed together and exploded and created the universe? I believe that God could have BANGED the universe into existance and "formed" it after, but I do not endorse "The Big Bang Theory."
Speaking of the big bang theory, where did these "particles" come from, eh? And if space didn't exist yet, where were the particles located? And if time didn't exist, how is it the particles did anything lienier? The only way to explain existance is that time is NOT a universal constant, nor is space. Therefore if none of these things have ALWAYS been, there must have been something else that did not exist within space or time as we know it, a different constant, that had a WILL and the POWER to make the universe. It makes sense.
Also, why do you refer to God as "god"?? |
As Hitchhiker said, you are only referring to one theory, and there are more.
I refer to it as "god" because I don't believe in a supreme being.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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| Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:17 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | GondorGirl wrote: | | Secondly, I doubt that Founder was talking about "of all the planets in this solar system it's amazing we just so happened to be on this one?" I think he was more referring to the fact that, of all the places this planet could have been positioned, it's amazing that it just so happened to be right in the perfect place. A foot further away, we'd be freezing, a foot closer, we'd be burning. There are a heck of a lot of places that this planet could have been and it ended up at just the right distance, and that people believe it was a coincidence is what I find the most amazing part. |
It doesn't seem all that amazing to me. The Earth was here for billions of years, and then because of how it was positioned, life was possible on it. I'd say that the idea of a "higher being" in control of the entire universe sounds much more unplausible |
You think that this planet came into creation, in the perfect place, with the right type of sun, and not with any other suns etc and just happened to be perfect for life? Strange for me to think that that could be more difficult than accepting there is a God.
| GondorGirl wrote: | | Finally, how exactly have they dated the earth? Hmm? How exactly do you know that they are correct in their estimations? Were these scientists here during these "billions" of years? Where has this fabled Geologic Collumn been found in it's entirety on this planet? Until you can give me evidence other than "scientists said..." I shall continue to sit firmly in my beliefs. And that belief is: Screw what the scientists say. They're just pulling this stuff out of their butts. There are so many astronomical and geological proofs that oppose the Big Bang and Evolutionary theories. Heavens! Where are these missing links? If they find those, they're not duds, and they're not far-fetched (such as "Lucy") then I'll believe them. |
| Quote: | The ages of Earth and Moon rocks and of meteorites are measured by the decay of long-lived radioactive isotopes of elements that occur naturally in rocks and minerals and that decay with half lives of 700 million to more than 100 billion years to stable isotopes of other elements. These dating techniques, which are firmly grounded in physics and are known collectively as radiometric dating, are used to measure the last time that the rock being dated was either melted or disturbed sufficiently to rehomogenize its radioactive elements.
Ancient rocks exceeding 3.5 billion years in age are found on all of Earth's continents. |
| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | There's scientific proof right there, it all works. They've used the same system before, and it's been shown to work correctly. |
The problem is that it doesn't allow for periods where the radioactivity decreased or increased. What happens if there was a period of time a few thousand years ago that the radioactivity increased, so that these materials lost their radioactive ions more quickly than usual? Since radioactivity was only discovered last centuary do you not think there could be mistakes with working out that certain materials have half life's of say 100 Billion years? The actual recordings to work out this would have to be way to detailed. It would be about 3153600000000000000000 seconds to lose one ion. Anyone been around that long to observe it?  I almost forgot, they would have to wait the same again for the next one to make sure.
| GhostOfAMemory wrote: | | Anyways, I don't understand how anyone who has read their bible can believe in evolution. The bible clearly states that God made a man's body out of dirt and breathed life into it; then later took a rib from that body and made a woman's body, where humans came from. There are no apes involved in this. Apes have always been apes, since God made them apes, and humans have always been human. Where in the bible does it even SUGGEST that humans could possibly have been descended from animals? The idea is utterly ridiculous |
| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Not to all religious beliefs, including one of the largest in the world. Evolution works out in how you said, working with the bible. "God" created man and woman. It never said what species they were, it never said that they were definitely human. Who's to say "god" didn't create a male and female ape, which evolved? And it doesn't suggest it, it doesn't need to. |
It doesn't really say in a lot of the places in the bible that men are humans. Does that mean we are apes now? Also people have traced the lineage of families in the bible, and this shows Adam and Eve were created about 7000 years ago. A bit quick for evolution.
| GhostOfAMemory wrote: | I may be mistaken, but isn't the whole point of the big bang theory that some particles magically rubbed together and exploded and created the universe? I believe that God could have BANGED the universe into existence and "formed" it after, but I do not endorse "The Big Bang Theory."
Speaking of the big bang theory, where did these "particles" come from, eh? And if space didn't exist yet, where were the particles located? And if time didn't exist, how is it the particles did anything linear? The only way to explain existence is that time is NOT a universal constant, nor is space. Therefore if none of these things have ALWAYS been, there must have been something else that did not exist within space or time as we know it, a different constant, that had a WILL and the POWER to make the universe. It makes sense. |
| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | As Hitchhiker said, you are only referring to one theory, and there are more. |
Exactly, Evolution and the Big Bang Theories are theories and so cannot be stated as fact. There are many other views and theories out there that don't agree with them. In a few years there could be totally different theories accepted.
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:30 pm |
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| Jeremy wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | GondorGirl wrote: | | Secondly, I doubt that Founder was talking about "of all the planets in this solar system it's amazing we just so happened to be on this one?" I think he was more referring to the fact that, of all the places this planet could have been positioned, it's amazing that it just so happened to be right in the perfect place. A foot further away, we'd be freezing, a foot closer, we'd be burning. There are a heck of a lot of places that this planet could have been and it ended up at just the right distance, and that people believe it was a coincidence is what I find the most amazing part. |
It doesn't seem all that amazing to me. The Earth was here for billions of years, and then because of how it was positioned, life was possible on it. I'd say that the idea of a "higher being" in control of the entire universe sounds much more unplausible |
You think that this planet came into creation, in the perfect place, with the right type of sun, and not with any other suns etc and just happened to be perfect for life? Strange for me to think that that could be more difficult than accepting there is a God. |
They're amazing odds, but that doesn't mean that it's impossible.
| Jeremy wrote: | | GondorGirl wrote: | | Finally, how exactly have they dated the earth? Hmm? How exactly do you know that they are correct in their estimations? Were these scientists here during these "billions" of years? Where has this fabled Geologic Collumn been found in it's entirety on this planet? Until you can give me evidence other than "scientists said..." I shall continue to sit firmly in my beliefs. And that belief is: Screw what the scientists say. They're just pulling this stuff out of their butts. There are so many astronomical and geological proofs that oppose the Big Bang and Evolutionary theories. Heavens! Where are these missing links? If they find those, they're not duds, and they're not far-fetched (such as "Lucy") then I'll believe them. |
| Quote: | The ages of Earth and Moon rocks and of meteorites are measured by the decay of long-lived radioactive isotopes of elements that occur naturally in rocks and minerals and that decay with half lives of 700 million to more than 100 billion years to stable isotopes of other elements. These dating techniques, which are firmly grounded in physics and are known collectively as radiometric dating, are used to measure the last time that the rock being dated was either melted or disturbed sufficiently to rehomogenize its radioactive elements.
Ancient rocks exceeding 3.5 billion years in age are found on all of Earth's continents. |
| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | There's scientific proof right there, it all works. They've used the same system before, and it's been shown to work correctly. |
The problem is that it doesn't allow for periods where the radioactivity decreased or increased. What happens if there was a period of time a few thousand years ago that the radioactivity increased, so that these materials lost their radioactive ions more quickly than usual? Since radioactivity was only discovered last centuary do you not think there could be mistakes with working out that certain materials have half life's of say 100 Billion years? The actual recordings to work out this would have to be way to detailed. It would be about 3153600000000000000000 seconds to lose one ion. Anyone been around that long to observe it? I almost forgot, they would have to wait the same again for the next one to make sure. |
Well, it's been accepted by most scientists, and they agree with it.
| Jeremy wrote: | | GhostOfAMemory wrote: | | Anyways, I don't understand how anyone who has read their bible can believe in evolution. The bible clearly states that God made a man's body out of dirt and breathed life into it; then later took a rib from that body and made a woman's body, where humans came from. There are no apes involved in this. Apes have always been apes, since God made them apes, and humans have always been human. Where in the bible does it even SUGGEST that humans could possibly have been descended from animals? The idea is utterly ridiculous |
| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Not to all religious beliefs, including one of the largest in the world. Evolution works out in how you said, working with the bible. "God" created man and woman. It never said what species they were, it never said that they were definitely human. Who's to say "god" didn't create a male and female ape, which evolved? And it doesn't suggest it, it doesn't need to. |
It doesn't really say in a lot of the places in the bible that men are humans. Does that mean we are apes now? Also people have traced the lineage of families in the bible, and this shows Adam and Eve were created about 7000 years ago. A bit quick for evolution. |
Do you really think that the people who wrote the bible actually had historical records going all the way back to adam and eve? That just doesn't make sense as writing wasn't even in existance then. Seems quite impossible.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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| Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:45 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Jeremy wrote: |
You think that this planet came into creation, in the perfect place, with the right type of sun, and not with any other suns etc and just happened to be perfect for life? Strange for me to think that that could be more difficult than accepting there is a God. |
They're amazing odds, but that doesn't mean that it's impossible. |
I know, but seems more unlikely to me. But I guess that is a personal decission.
| Jeremy wrote: |
| Quote: | The ages of Earth and Moon rocks and of meteorites are measured by the decay of long-lived radioactive isotopes of elements that occur naturally in rocks and minerals and that decay with half lives of 700 million to more than 100 billion years to stable isotopes of other elements. These dating techniques, which are firmly grounded in physics and are known collectively as radiometric dating, are used to measure the last time that the rock being dated was either melted or disturbed sufficiently to rehomogenize its radioactive elements.
Ancient rocks exceeding 3.5 billion years in age are found on all of Earth's continents. |
| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | There's scientific proof right there, it all works. They've used the same system before, and it's been shown to work correctly. |
The problem is that it doesn't allow for periods where the radioactivity decreased or increased. What happens if there was a period of time a few thousand years ago that the radioactivity increased, so that these materials lost their radioactive ions more quickly than usual? Since radioactivity was only discovered last centuary do you not think there could be mistakes with working out that certain materials have half life's of say 100 Billion years? The actual recordings to work out this would have to be way to detailed. It would be about 3153600000000000000000 seconds to lose one ion. Anyone been around that long to observe it? I almost forgot, they would have to wait the same again for the next one to make sure. |
| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Well, it's been accepted by most scientists, and they agree with it. |
I'm slightly puzzled how. I think I'll ask one of my physics teachers and get them to explain.
| Jeremy wrote: | | GhostOfAMemory wrote: | | Anyways, I don't understand how anyone who has read their bible can believe in evolution. The bible clearly states that God made a man's body out of dirt and breathed life into it; then later took a rib from that body and made a woman's body, where humans came from. There are no apes involved in this. Apes have always been apes, since God made them apes, and humans have always been human. Where in the bible does it even SUGGEST that humans could possibly have been descended from animals? The idea is utterly ridiculous |
| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Not to all religious beliefs, including one of the largest in the world. Evolution works out in how you said, working with the bible. "God" created man and woman. It never said what species they were, it never said that they were definitely human. Who's to say "god" didn't create a male and female ape, which evolved? And it doesn't suggest it, it doesn't need to. |
It doesn't really say in a lot of the places in the bible that men are humans. Does that mean we are apes now? Also people have traced the lineage of families in the bible, and this shows Adam and Eve were created about 7000 years ago. A bit quick for evolution. |
| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Do you really think that the people who wrote the bible actually had historical records going all the way back to adam and eve? That just doesn't make sense as writing wasn't even in existance then. Seems quite impossible. |
In the bible there is lines of families and it tells who was the son of who and so on. In the bible you can actually follow the line of poeple and work out about how long it has been.
Split from Death Penalty as it was getting off topic. Moderator
Last edited by Jeremy on Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:47 pm |
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I know that, but how would they keep records of that, even before writing was even in existance? It just doesn't make any sense. How would they know?
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:16 pm |
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I believe in the Bible. However, one belief that I have different is this:
Evolution.
I believe that God created the Big Bang and guided the creation of the Universes. Then, he created evolution. That's just my belief.
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:26 pm |
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I just find it unlikely that humans would share around 95% of our DNA with chimpanzees if we weren't in some way related to them.
We did not evolve from monkeys, monkeys and humans evolved from common ancestors.
Furthermore, there are Darwin's finches. On the Galapagos Islands, the finches' beaks had adapted to break open the tough nuts, while on the mainland there wasn't this adaptation. Same species, different abilities.
The Big Bang and Evolution are separate theories, although I'm willing to debate them in a single topic if we keep them separate. They don't depend on each other.
The Big Bang is a convenient theory because it fits the Hubble expansion theory, which is corroborated by Slipher's discovery of red shift. Actually, I'm more interesting in learning how the universe ends rather than how it began, although I don't think I'll stick around until The End. Knowing how it all began would be nice, but wouldn't that take away the mystery?
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gilbert3729
Commander
Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 390
Location: New England, USA
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| Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:17 pm |
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Ive got a question, has anyone taken advanced biology or astronomy, because all of these questions (except the religous ones) are answered in those clases.
In biology it has been proven that every single living thing on this planet all started as a micture of gas and elements which evolved into organic molecules. An experiment was done in 1922 to see if it was possible. A scientist, named miller, put hydrogen gas, nitrogen gas, carbon dioxide, water, ammonia, and methane into an apparatus:
which created organic molecules. This proved that we lated evolved into more complex organisims.
BTW, the whole debate about how the earth just happened to form in the right place at the right time is correct. If its position was just a little off then we would exist right now discussing it. I know the religious people in this forum prob wont accept this and thats alright. In a way ignorance is bliss.
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gilbert3729
Commander
Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 390
Location: New England, USA
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| Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:21 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | I know that, but how would they keep records of that, even before writing was even in existance? It just doesn't make any sense. How would they know? |
carbon dating and the half life method. The know how many years it take for some elements to break down and loose half of its mass. By useing this and a big formula they can tell how old things are. They have done this mithod to a bunch of rocks and the oldest that they have found was around 4 billion years old.
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GhostOfAMemory
Star-crossed Voyager
Joined: 06 Sep 2003
Posts: 4322
Location: My computer... duh
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| Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:15 pm |
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And how does anyoen know this carbon dating even works? I admit I don't know a lot about it, but it could be totally random. You're just going to accept everything because they tell you the rock is however many years old?? Whatever.
| Quote: | Secondly, as the person above me posted, God breathed life into a human...how do you know when that was...it could have been during the process of evolution
God" created man and woman. It never said what species they were,
I refer to it as "god" because I don't believe in a supreme being. |
Did you forget that the bible says God formed a man's body out of the dirt and breathed life into it? Or did you jsut choose to not mention that?
And as far as I know, the only species ever reffered to as "man" and "woman" are humans. By the way, God said he created humans in his own image. I take that to mean our self-awareness and abillity to think for ourselves and make descions; something animals cannot do. God created people and animals entirely seperate from each other, because we were made in image of Him, to be his sons and daughter, not pets like animals.
Also, how is it you can believe in the bible and not believe in the supreme being, God? That makes absolutely no sense. You do not beleive in the bible if you do not believe in God. That's just the way it is.
| Quote: | I believe in the Bible. However, one belief that I have different is this:
Evolution.
I believe that God created the Big Bang and guided the creation of the Universes. Then, he created evolution. That's just my belief. |
God clearly states in the Bible how humans came into being. And it's not evolution. Sorry.
| Quote: | | the universe at the end of a previous life-cycle collided with another universe, both of these universes residing upon a higher dimension. The collision annihilated both universes, sparking a new Big Bang which created our universe. Our universe continues to expand, then it collided again, and so on. |
If that's the case, where did the original universes come from? I don't really care where just humans came from,or jsut this universe, I want to know where EVERYTHING came from. Everything that exists as we know it has to have a source. You can go back on and on forever, but eventually there has to be something that started it all.
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- The road goes ever on and on, down from door where it began; Now far ahead the road has gone, and I must follow, if I can -
Jesus loves you! God bless
Go to www.purevolume.com/leahcoiro NOW or face anhilation! BWAHA!
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Gondor Girl
Princess of Ithilien
Joined: 27 Sep 2003
Posts: 3966
Location: Henneth Anun, Ithilien
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| Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:21 pm |
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DUDE! Have you even read this entire thread?? That's not even what IntrepidIsMe was referring to! Wow, that makes me really confident in your intelligence. REALLY confident. (referring to Gilbert's last post)
| gilbert3729 wrote: | | I know the religious people in this forum prob wont accept this and thats alright. In a way ignorance is bliss. |
You're calling US ignorant? You're the ignorant ones. DO YOU EVEN BEGIN TO COMPREHEND WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOU BECAUSE OF YOUR IGNORANCE?! You're going to be sent to the worst existance possibly imaginable for the rest of eternity. This place is called HELL, have you heard of it? And you'll have absolutely no excuse. When you die, and the end times come, you'll be standing in front of God wetting yourselves, realizing how stupid you were. You'll realize then that you had no excuse and that you brought it on to yourselves for being so gosh-darn IGNORANT as he's throwing you to Hell without any hope of ever being happy AGAIN! This is your chance guys and you're blowing it away by clinging to scientific fallacies and nay-saying people who actually beliece in God. No, Mr. Gilbert. Ignorance is NOT bliss!
-------signature-------
Gondor! Gondor, between the mountains and the sea
West wind blew there; the light upon the Silver Tree
Fell like bright rain in the gardens of the Kings of old
O proud walls! White towers! O winged crown and throne of gold...
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:08 pm |
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| Gondor Girl wrote: | | You're calling US ignorant? You're the ignorant ones. DO YOU EVEN BEGIN TO COMPREHEND WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOU BECAUSE OF YOUR IGNORANCE?! You're going to be sent to the worst existance possibly imaginable for the rest of eternity. This place is called HELL, have you heard of it? And you'll have absolutely no excuse. When you die, and the end times come, you'll be standing in front of God wetting yourselves, realizing how stupid you were. You'll realize then that you had no excuse and that you brought it on to yourselves for being so gosh-darn IGNORANT as he's throwing you to Hell without any hope of ever being happy AGAIN! This is your chance guys and you're blowing it away by clinging to scientific fallacies and nay-saying people who actually beliece in God. No, Mr. Gilbert. Ignorance is NOT bliss! |
Whoa . . . no need for the caps lock.
Religion and science are both complete tautologies that serve the exact same purpose in our lives.
I believe what I believe. We actually do have an excuse, and that is there is no more proof for religion than there is science, and you can still believe in science if you believe in religion.
For example, dropping a baseball from a tall building. This is caused by gravity, which is a force in the universe. Although this force may have been established by a supreme being, I don't believe that every single time an object falls to the ground is an Act of God.
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gilbert3729
Commander
Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 390
Location: New England, USA
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| Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:12 pm |
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| GhostOfAMemory wrote: | And how does anyoen know this carbon dating even works? I admit I don't know a lot about it, but it could be totally random. You're just going to accept everything because they tell you the rock is however many years old?? Whatever.
| Quote: | Secondly, as the person above me posted, God breathed life into a human...how do you know when that was...it could have been during the process of evolution
God" created man and woman. It never said what species they were,
I refer to it as "god" because I don't believe in a supreme being. |
Did you forget that the bible says God formed a man's body out of the dirt and breathed life into it? Or did you jsut choose to not mention that?
And as far as I know, the only species ever reffered to as "man" and "woman" are humans. By the way, God said he created humans in his own image. I take that to mean our self-awareness and abillity to think for ourselves and make descions; something animals cannot do. God created people and animals entirely seperate from each other, because we were made in image of Him, to be his sons and daughter, not pets like animals.
Also, how is it you can believe in the bible and not believe in the supreme being, God? That makes absolutely no sense. You do not beleive in the bible if you do not believe in God. That's just the way it is.
| Quote: | I believe in the Bible. However, one belief that I have different is this:
Evolution.
I believe that God created the Big Bang and guided the creation of the Universes. Then, he created evolution. That's just my belief. |
God clearly states in the Bible how humans came into being. And it's not evolution. Sorry.
| Quote: | | the universe at the end of a previous life-cycle collided with another universe, both of these universes residing upon a higher dimension. The collision annihilated both universes, sparking a new Big Bang which created our universe. Our universe continues to expand, then it collided again, and so on. |
If that's the case, where did the original universes come from? I don't really care where just humans came from,or jsut this universe, I want to know where EVERYTHING came from. Everything that exists as we know it has to have a source. You can go back on and on forever, but eventually there has to be something that started it all. |
because carbon dating has been mathmatically proven. In physics and calculas class they demonstrate how it works. They have even tested it on elements with half lives that are very short (the unstable elements). It is a proven scientific method, its hard to ignor the facts.
I dont intend this to be anti-religious but if you believe in the bible (word for word) as the truth, you really have a very narrow minded approach on life. I agree that the bible does have a purpose in the eyes of religion, but scientifically it is very flawed. "God" did not create the earth in seven days, "God" did not create the garden of eden and adam and eve, and many other theories in the bible. I know that there are many people with very strong opinions and blind trust in the bible but not allowing yourself to even consider these facts is very ignorant to the truth.
-------signature-------
Soylent Green is people!!!
John Kerry...
Bringing complete sentences back to the White House.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:19 pm |
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| Quote: | | I dont intend this to be anti-religious but if you believe in the bible (word for word) as the truth, you really have a very narrow minded approach on life. I agree that the bible does have a purpose in the eyes of religion, but scientifically it is very flawed. "God" did not create the earth in seven days, "God" did not create the garden of eden and adam and eve, and many other theories in the bible. I know that there are many people with very strong opinions and blind trust in the bible but not allowing yourself to even consider these facts is very ignorant to the truth. |
I agree with the statement everyone should have an open mind. Although your being hypocritical. You tell us to have an open mind when you yourseld don't towards us. Its kinda wrong to say God did not do this or that. "Blind trust"? The truth? Truth from your point of view. You aren't being open minded by saying some the hings you said.
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gilbert3729
Commander
Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 390
Location: New England, USA
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| Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:20 pm |
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| Gondor Girl wrote: | DUDE! Have you even read this entire thread?? That's not even what IntrepidIsMe was referring to! Wow, that makes me really confident in your intelligence. REALLY confident. (referring to Gilbert's last post)
| gilbert3729 wrote: | | I know the religious people in this forum prob wont accept this and thats alright. In a way ignorance is bliss. |
You're calling US ignorant? You're the ignorant ones. DO YOU EVEN BEGIN TO COMPREHEND WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOU BECAUSE OF YOUR IGNORANCE?! You're going to be sent to the worst existance possibly imaginable for the rest of eternity. This place is called HELL, have you heard of it? And you'll have absolutely no excuse. When you die, and the end times come, you'll be standing in front of God wetting yourselves, realizing how stupid you were. You'll realize then that you had no excuse and that you brought it on to yourselves for being so gosh-darn IGNORANT as he's throwing you to Hell without any hope of ever being happy AGAIN! This is your chance guys and you're blowing it away by clinging to scientific fallacies and nay-saying people who actually beliece in God. No, Mr. Gilbert. Ignorance is NOT bliss! |
Wow, it seems that i struck a nerve.
to answer you "question," I will not be "wetting myself" when i die. I do not believe in a devine power. What proof do you have that "heaven" and "hell" exist. I have proof in what im saying. I am backing up my arguments with actual physical proof. What you have is blind faith, not proof. If you want to debate your side of this argument then show me the proof.
-------signature-------
Soylent Green is people!!!
John Kerry...
Bringing complete sentences back to the White House.
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Gondor Girl
Princess of Ithilien
Joined: 27 Sep 2003
Posts: 3966
Location: Henneth Anun, Ithilien
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| Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:25 pm |
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Yes, I agree. God isn't making the baseball fall, the force he made is making the baseball fall. I also agree that one can believe in both God and science, unless of course, you're referring to evolution as science. I'm sorry, but it's not. However, even if you are referring to it as science, you can still believe in both God and evolution. Heck, you can believe anything you want. It doesn't make it true, but you can still believe in it. And that's no excuse. You were told about it. The only excuse a person could have, that would make me really pity them, is if they either had never heard of God, or hadn't heard enough about him to really, you know, know that they can be saved by him. You guys, are ignorant in a whole other way. You guys know the truth, but you just ignore it with your heads in the clouds. I am truly sorry, but you have no excuse.
-------signature-------
Gondor! Gondor, between the mountains and the sea
West wind blew there; the light upon the Silver Tree
Fell like bright rain in the gardens of the Kings of old
O proud walls! White towers! O winged crown and throne of gold...
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GhostOfAMemory
Star-crossed Voyager
Joined: 06 Sep 2003
Posts: 4322
Location: My computer... duh
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| Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:25 pm |
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^^ I don't think you've given us a shred of proof to back up your arguments. And just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
I can't list sources or names or facts, but I've heard a heck of a lot more proof to endorse the creation acount in the bible than dismiss it. You ever think that all the "evidence" pointing to an ice age was ACTUALLY evidence pointing towards the flood?
Not to mention I haven't heard ANYONE tell me yet where existance FIRST started if not from God. There has to be a source, plain and simple.
Last edited by GhostOfAMemory on Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
-------signature-------
- The road goes ever on and on, down from door where it began; Now far ahead the road has gone, and I must follow, if I can -
Jesus loves you! God bless
Go to www.purevolume.com/leahcoiro NOW or face anhilation! BWAHA!
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:25 pm |
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| gilbert3729 wrote: | | Gondor Girl wrote: | DUDE! Have you even read this entire thread?? That's not even what IntrepidIsMe was referring to! Wow, that makes me really confident in your intelligence. REALLY confident. (referring to Gilbert's last post)
| gilbert3729 wrote: | | I know the religious people in this forum prob wont accept this and thats alright. In a way ignorance is bliss. |
You're calling US ignorant? You're the ignorant ones. DO YOU EVEN BEGIN TO COMPREHEND WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOU BECAUSE OF YOUR IGNORANCE?! You're going to be sent to the worst existance possibly imaginable for the rest of eternity. This place is called HELL, have you heard of it? And you'll have absolutely no excuse. When you die, and the end times come, you'll be standing in front of God wetting yourselves, realizing how stupid you were. You'll realize then that you had no excuse and that you brought it on to yourselves for being so gosh-darn IGNORANT as he's throwing you to Hell without any hope of ever being happy AGAIN! This is your chance guys and you're blowing it away by clinging to scientific fallacies and nay-saying people who actually beliece in God. No, Mr. Gilbert. Ignorance is NOT bliss! |
Wow, it seems that i struck a nerve.
to answer you "question," I will not be "wetting myself" when i die. I do not believe in a devine power. What proof do you have that "heaven" and "hell" exist. I have proof in what im saying. I am backing up my arguments with actual physical proof. What you have is blind faith, not proof. If you want to debate your side of this argument then show me the proof. |
You have proof that God doesn't exist? Show it to us then.
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gilbert3729
Commander
Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 390
Location: New England, USA
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| Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:26 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | Quote: | | I dont intend this to be anti-religious but if you believe in the bible (word for word) as the truth, you really have a very narrow minded approach on life. I agree that the bible does have a purpose in the eyes of religion, but scientifically it is very flawed. "God" did not create the earth in seven days, "God" did not create the garden of eden and adam and eve, and many other theories in the bible. I know that there are many people with very strong opinions and blind trust in the bible but not allowing yourself to even consider these facts is very ignorant to the truth. |
I agree with the statement everyone should have an open mind. Although your being hypocritical. You tell us to have an open mind when you yourseld don't towards us. Its kinda wrong to say God did not do this or that. "Blind trust"? The truth? Truth from your point of view. You aren't being open minded by saying some the hings you said. |
I'm not being hypocritical because i can see some reasons behind the religious point of view. I have buddist and jewish beliefs, but i dont believe in a devine power controlling and judging peoples lives. I certainly dont believe in the judgement in christianity, thats what im against. I was raised protestant and it seems that everyone has a love/fear attitude towards christ. If you dont obey him "the way that he wants you to live your life", then you will burn in hell for all of eternity.
-------signature-------
Soylent Green is people!!!
John Kerry...
Bringing complete sentences back to the White House.
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GhostOfAMemory
Star-crossed Voyager
Joined: 06 Sep 2003
Posts: 4322
Location: My computer... duh
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| Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:30 pm |
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^ That's not what being a Christian is, and that's not what I believe.
God has every right to tell us how to live, because our lives are not our own. He made them, He can revoke them any time He wants. But because He loves us, He'd rather help us live our lives right than destroy them. Everything He tells us to do He tells us for our own good. He tells us not to steal or lie or murder or cheat on our spouses. How is that such a horrible request? He asks for us to have a relationship with Him. Is that so wrong? He made us, He loves us as our Father, is it wrong for a father to want to spend time with his children? I don't see how ANYTHING God is asking us to do is unfair.
Last edited by GhostOfAMemory on Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
-------signature-------
- The road goes ever on and on, down from door where it began; Now far ahead the road has gone, and I must follow, if I can -
Jesus loves you! God bless
Go to www.purevolume.com/leahcoiro NOW or face anhilation! BWAHA!
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gilbert3729
Commander
Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 390
Location: New England, USA
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| Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:30 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | gilbert3729 wrote: | | Gondor Girl wrote: | DUDE! Have you even read this entire thread?? That's not even what IntrepidIsMe was referring to! Wow, that makes me really confident in your intelligence. REALLY confident. (referring to Gilbert's last post)
| gilbert3729 wrote: | | I know the religious people in this forum prob wont accept this and thats alright. In a way ignorance is bliss. |
You're calling US ignorant? You're the ignorant ones. DO YOU EVEN BEGIN TO COMPREHEND WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOU BECAUSE OF YOUR IGNORANCE?! You're going to be sent to the worst existance possibly imaginable for the rest of eternity. This place is called HELL, have you heard of it? And you'll have absolutely no excuse. When you die, and the end times come, you'll be standing in front of God wetting yourselves, realizing how stupid you were. You'll realize then that you had no excuse and that you brought it on to yourselves for being so gosh-darn IGNORANT as he's throwing you to Hell without any hope of ever being happy AGAIN! This is your chance guys and you're blowing it away by clinging to scientific fallacies and nay-saying people who actually beliece in God. No, Mr. Gilbert. Ignorance is NOT bliss! |
Wow, it seems that i struck a nerve.
to answer you "question," I will not be "wetting myself" when i die. I do not believe in a devine power. What proof do you have that "heaven" and "hell" exist. I have proof in what im saying. I am backing up my arguments with actual physical proof. What you have is blind faith, not proof. If you want to debate your side of this argument then show me the proof. |
You have proof that God doesn't exist? Show it to us then. |
ok, now your just being redundant. Proof of his existance....proof of his non-existance...they are really the same thing. What i have proof of is the scientific explanation of how the earth was created, when it was created, how people were created, etc. Redundency dosent help anyones argument.
-------signature-------
Soylent Green is people!!!
John Kerry...
Bringing complete sentences back to the White House.
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GhostOfAMemory
Star-crossed Voyager
Joined: 06 Sep 2003
Posts: 4322
Location: My computer... duh
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| Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:32 pm |
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^ you have proof of all this? You were there? You yourself are declaring theories to be true? You have ABSOLUTE proof of EXACTLY how we all came to be here? Now THAT is aarogant. I don't even claim to know that. I know a few general details God chose to share with us in the bible, but other than that, I have no clue how He did it. I find it extremely pompous of you to claim to have proof of everything.
-------signature-------
- The road goes ever on and on, down from door where it began; Now far ahead the road has gone, and I must follow, if I can -
Jesus loves you! God bless
Go to www.purevolume.com/leahcoiro NOW or face anhilation! BWAHA!
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gilbert3729
Commander
Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 390
Location: New England, USA
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| Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:35 pm |
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| GhostOfAMemory wrote: | ^ That's not what being a Christian is, and that's not what I believe.
God has every right to tell us how to live, because our lvies are not our own. He made them, He can revoke them any time He wants. But because He loves us, He'd rather help us live our lives right than destroy them. Everything He tells us to do He tells us for our own good. He tells us not to steal or lie or murder or cheat on our spouses. How is that such a horrible request? He asks for us to have a relationship with Him. Is that so wrong? He made us, He loves us as our Father, is it wrong for a father to want to spend time with his children? I don't see how ANYTHING God is asking us to do is unfair. |
so, what your saying is that if "god" has the power to revoke peoples lives(when the people using them arnt using them the way that "god" intended), why dosent he revoke the lives of serial killers and rapists who are just abusing "god's" rental lives? And if people are living there lives focused on pleasing their lord so that he wont revoke their lives, how can you say that that isnt living in fear?
-------signature-------
Soylent Green is people!!!
John Kerry...
Bringing complete sentences back to the White House.
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