Separation of Church and State

Angeldust · **Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:35 pm**

Morality is a personal choice. It is not something that can be forced on you or even taught for that matter. I know a few people who are extremely devout, and extremely immoral. For that reason, I do not believe there is any correlation between religion and morality.

IntrepidIsMe · **Fri Aug 13, 2004 4:41 pm**

I agree, the Catholic Church used to burn heretics, kill those who opposed them, and wage wars. None of that goes on anymore (or so it appears) but morals from a religion which used to commit mass murder, I mean, sheesh.

It seems rather pompous of anyone to come to the conclusion that it's religion that gave the world basic human dignity.

Puck · The Texan Joined: 05 Jan 2004 Posts: 5596

I think the basic ideas of religion are accepted by all decent people. They may not worship any God or anything else, but the main religions of the world today hold the basic moral values that society needs to have. That is not to say the un-religious have morals, or the religious do, but most religions teach basic good morals, and goodwill. I think that some people confuse morals, and basic values, with religion and thus this is where they get the beleif that you need to take moral restraints out of society, which is wrong. Basic principals must be imposed on everyone, that is just a fact.

Also, I beleive that it is ok for politicians to hold value in faith, and include their faith in their actions. Even if you are not Christian, any person with at least some intelligence can see that in fact, the Bible does have some good lessons, whether you beleive in God or not.

IntrepidIsMe · **Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:02 pm**

I agree, that people except most religions ideas as being good. All religions have morals of some sort, and society needs to have those. However, religion isn't the ONLY source of morals. Most people have morals in the first place, without having to be told to follow them and what they are by a religion.

Republican_Man · **Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:31 pm**

IntrepidIsMe · **Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:56 pm**

What makes you think that? Religion does inspire people on how to act and live. But it doesn't need to be there for people to appreciate others and all that. I don't think it's really possible to ever know what the world would be like without religion, as it's been here forever. Hell, it might even be better.

Republican_Man · **Fri Aug 13, 2004 7:52 pm**

IntrepidIsMe · **Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:33 pm**

It seems so silly to think that religion was the base for almost all morals. Of course religion inspires people who follow it to be good, etc. (depending on the religion). I mean, why don't you believe that people just are good without needing a religious influence? I refuse to have anything to do with my religion, and I refuse to let it influence me, but does that make me a bad person? No.

Republican_Man · **Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:34 pm**

IntrepidIsMe · **Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:37 pm**

I consider it my religion, I go to a Catholic School, take RE, etc. It's still there, I just don't consider it anything except a myth.

Haha, that history comment is hilarious. A history with popes who had children, commited genocide, killed those who opposed them, and waged wars. Definitely roots that are worth keeping, for sure.

Republican_Man · **Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:39 pm**

IntrepidIsMe · **Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:46 pm**

It's still my religion, I just don't follow it. If I was religous, that's the one I'd be (if I accepted Catholicism). Besides, I've donated money to Catholic Church, so it's mine, as they haven't payed me in any way, shape, or form. I've bought them out.

Republican_Man · **Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:48 pm**

IntrepidIsMe · **Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:50 pm**

Because, I've invested in it, it's miiiiiiiiiiine,

When I was religious, that's what I was; if I still liked the religion and just didn't believe, but all of a sudden did, then that's the religion I'd be. Works for me.

Republican_Man · **Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:51 pm**

gilbert3729 · **Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:51 pm**

IntrepidIsMe · **Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:54 pm**

Republican_Man · **Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:56 pm**

Hitchhiker · **Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:23 am**

Actually, atheism is the belief in no God or supreme being whatsoever. An Atheist is just as convinced about the nonexistence of God as a Catholic would be of the existence of God.

Agnosticism is the doubt of the existence of God or a supreme being. Agnostics are not Atheists because they aren't convinced--they are on the fence, or just not in one camp or the other.

A person who is not of any religion is more likely to be Agnostic than Atheist, simply because it is easier to sit on the fence, at least for the short-term.

Me? I don't know . . . I was raised Christian but have lately come to challenge my worldview of things. I'm certainly open to the possibility of a supreme being, and have no doubt that beings exist on a higher 'level' of reality as we perceive it . . . but whether or not I worship this being is another question.

As it is now, I don't think that the separation of Church and state is bad, nor do I think it is good. Obviously religion has its place in everyday life, just like everything else. But keep in mind that every system is susceptible to corruption--even if you have good intentions in mind when bringing Church and State closer together, often things get cloudier as time goes on.

Jeremy · **Sat Aug 14, 2004 1:06 pm**

Puck · The Texan Joined: 05 Jan 2004 Posts: 5596

Catholics don't beleive you can "buy" your salvation. That is just silly.

This is the basics of what you have to beleive in order to be Catholic, along with the eucharist:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

gilbert3729 · **Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:36 pm**

^^ catholics use to be able to buy thei salvation but i think they stopped that in the 1990's. i could be mistaken on the date.

IntrepidIsMe · **Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:54 pm**

Puck · The Texan Joined: 05 Jan 2004 Posts: 5596

I don't see why religious people would want to stop a person from claiming to have a religion. If they claim to be Catholic, then there has to be some foundation, no matter how unstable or messy, that the claim is based on. Seems kind of presumptious to tell a person they are not a certain religion if they claim to be so.