| Do you think that the State and the Church should be separated (traditionalist? |
| Of course not; just religion can't be forced on others (traditionalist) |
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23% |
[ 6 ] |
| No (moderately traditionalist) |
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7% |
[ 2 ] |
| Somewhat |
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26% |
[ 7 ] |
| Yes (moderately secularist) |
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42% |
[ 11 ] |
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| Total Votes : 26 |
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| Author |
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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 Thu Aug 12, 2004 6:08 pm |
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I voted somewhat. In times it is helpful but also harmful. I think the whole athiest thing is getting way out of hand. They want to put God out of everything. Im AGAINST that completely. Religion is a big part of the government for now. Do I want that to change? Not exactly. It depends on the situation. Athiest tend to twist the situation in their favor. They claim that we use the Bible to dictate all of our decisions, which isn't true. Then they are like the DS should be banned. Doesn't your Bible say forgiveness is important and this and that. Im saying "Don't you not belive in the Bible? Why are you using that as your argument?" That gets annoying.
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:02 pm |
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Why wouldn't you use it as an argument? It's what your religion is founded on, what else would they use?
| Republican_Man wrote: | | 4EvaJaneway wrote: |
And according to the Catholic Chatichism, for Gay people to be together is okay, and for people to be Gay is okay, but when Gay people want to be married, thats not okay. |
No, that is NOT true. It goes AGAINST Catholic beliefs to even BE gay--I know, I'm a catholic. |
Actually, she's right. Someone told my class (they had a degree in theology) that it isn't a sin to be gay, only the act of sexual intercourse with a person of the same sex is a sin. And that's because you're having sex without the purpose being to have children. Same reason that it's a sin to use condoms and *beep* (according to the Catholic Church).
Why would the Catholic Church's idea of an ever-loving god have it a sin to be something you can't help? Would be rather pointless.
Last edited by IntrepidIsMe on Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Angeldust
The Mob Queen
Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 6498
Location: In your most wonderful, screwed up dreams. :P
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| Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:07 pm |
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| Quote: | | It DOES have an impact and SHOULD and CAN be used in some cases. |
Which cases are those?
| Quote: |
Religion plays a big part in people's beliefs--that's my primary reason for not approving of Gay actions, but not my Marriage beliefs, however. |
In that case, not all religions agree with one another. Which one should we choose to run the government? The majority? The minority? Someone in between? How do you know which religion is right?
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"You want to dance with the angels? Then embroider me with gold; and I will fly with the angels...and you can dance with me."
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DemonClassY
Commodore
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 1986
Location: Pittsburgh, PA, U.S.A
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| Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:12 pm |
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I picked yes because you can't have other people's religions deciding how you live. How would you feel if you had to live by someone else's religious belief?
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First city to bring home the Lombardi Trophy and Lord Stanley in the same season!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GO PENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Angeldust
The Mob Queen
Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 6498
Location: In your most wonderful, screwed up dreams. :P
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| Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:14 pm |
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^ Another fine point.
-------signature-------
"You want to dance with the angels? Then embroider me with gold; and I will fly with the angels...and you can dance with me."
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Starbuck
faster...
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 8715
Location: between chaos and melody
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| Fri Aug 13, 2004 7:47 am |
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| DemonClassY wrote: | | I picked yes because you can't have other people's religions deciding how you live. How would you feel if you had to live by someone else's religious belief? |
This is true, so much of the way our country is governed comes from religion, mostly the Catholic religions, but there are so many other non Catholic religions that it isn't funny.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Fri Aug 13, 2004 11:56 am |
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| Founder wrote: | | I voted somewhat. In times it is helpful but also harmful. I think the whole athiest thing is getting way out of hand. They want to put God out of everything. Im AGAINST that completely. Religion is a big part of the government for now. Do I want that to change? Not exactly. It depends on the situation. Athiest tend to twist the situation in their favor. They claim that we use the Bible to dictate all of our decisions, which isn't true. Then they are like the DS should be banned. Doesn't your Bible say forgiveness is important and this and that. Im saying "Don't you not belive in the Bible? Why are you using that as your argument?" That gets annoying. |
No, you've got part of that wrong. It's not all athiests that want that--it's the SECULARISTS, which may include non-athiests and people of faith.
| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | Why wouldn't you use it as an argument? It's what your religion is founded on, what else would they use?
| Republican_Man wrote: | | 4EvaJaneway wrote: |
And according to the Catholic Chatichism, for Gay people to be together is okay, and for people to be Gay is okay, but when Gay people want to be married, thats not okay. |
No, that is NOT true. It goes AGAINST Catholic beliefs to even BE gay--I know, I'm a catholic. |
Actually, she's right. Someone told my class (they had a degree in theology) that it isn't a sin to be gay, only the act of sexual intercourse with a person of the same sex is a sin. And that's because you're having sex without the purpose being to have children. Same reason that it's a sin to use condoms and *beep* (according to the Catholic Church).
Why would the Catholic Church's idea of an ever-loving god have it a sin to be something you can't help? Would be rather pointless. |
It IS a sin to be gay--that person is wrong. It is a key thing that goes against the Catholic Church, and that's the truth. And God would still have that be a sin and it's not pointless--he knows that it's wrong and it is what it is.
| Angeldust wrote: | | Quote: | | It DOES have an impact and SHOULD and CAN be used in some cases. |
Which cases are those?
One nation, under God, etc. Gay Marriage (to an extent), Abortion, such things as that.
| Quote: |
Religion plays a big part in people's beliefs--that's my primary reason for not approving of Gay actions, but not my Marriage beliefs, however. |
In that case, not all religions agree with one another. Which one should we choose to run the government? The majority? The minority? Someone in between? How do you know which religion is right? |
What the heck are you smoking? I have NOT said that religion should run the government--for cripes sake. And no matter WHAT you do, people's religious beliefs will help them choose their other ideals.
| DemonClassY wrote: | | I picked yes because you can't have other people's religions deciding how you live. How would you feel if you had to live by someone else's religious belief? |
For cripes sake! It does NOT mean that someone's religion DECIDES HOW YOU LIVE, it just impacts their belief. And I wouldn't like being forced to live under another religion--and that's why there's the Establishment Clause.
| 4evajaneway wrote: | | DemonClassY wrote: | | I picked yes because you can't have other people's religions deciding how you live. How would you feel if you had to live by someone else's religious belief? |
This is true, so much of the way our country is governed comes from religion, mostly the Catholic religions, but there are so many other non Catholic religions that it isn't funny. |
1st off: It is NOT mostly Catholic religion. Where did you get that from? Most members of our government are Protestent, and it is not true because the religion does not decide how you live, it just impacts other peoples' beliefs, and there's nothing you can do about it.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Captain Dappet
Forum Revolutionist
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 16756
Location: On my supersonic rocket ship.
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| Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:04 pm |
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Merged Church and State is like Feudalism, my friends.
And in case you did not know, feudalism was the type of government used in the 13th century.
No, I do not think Church and State merge well together. We are well past this already, since hundreds of years back, at least in all civilized nations, in my opinion.
In fact, I think Religion should be removed completely. It's impossible, I know, but it is my personal belief that it would spare us much trouble.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:14 pm |
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| Captain Dappet wrote: | Merged Church and State is like Feudalism, my friends.
And in case you did not know, feudalism was the type of government used in the 13th century.
No, I do not think Church and State merge well together. We are well past this already, since hundreds of years back, at least in all civilized nations, in my opinion.
In fact, I think Religion should be removed completely. It's impossible, I know, but it is my personal belief that it would spare us much trouble. |
Okay:
1. I studies fuedalism IN DEPTH last year, and I know what it is. That is NOT what I want--why do you all keep putting words into my mouth that just aren't there, because I do NOT believe that any religious institution should join with the government. You just don't seem to understand the concept still: Separation of Church and State means making the government void of relgigion. It should NOT be removed completely, and it is not impossible--look at France and Japan, for instance. But if it is removed completely, then morals wil go down and trouble will occur. Secularism is bad.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Captain Dappet
Forum Revolutionist
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 16756
Location: On my supersonic rocket ship.
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| Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:25 pm |
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You honestly think there are no Religious people in Japan and France? 
And Religion is not the foundation of morals. There are other things that can give people morals, and it doesnt have to be Religion. It can be something more...well...likely.
Furthermore, the Japanese are one of, if not the, most moral, diciplined, polite and friendly people in the world.
Japan has the lowest crime-related death rate compared to it's population in the whole world.
I saw a movie from a concert in Japan. Once the concer was over, the whole place was a mess. And did you know what practically all of them did?
Picked up all the trash in their vincinity and recycled it.
Oh, yes. Secularism is bad indeed.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:34 pm |
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| Captain Dappet wrote: | You honestly think there are no Religious people in Japan and France?
I didn't say that, just that the government is secular and the country overall is secular.
And Religion is not the foundation of morals. There are other things that can give people morals, and it doesnt have to be Religion. It can be something more...well...likely.
If religion did not exist, then there would BE NO MORALS!
Furthermore, the Japanese are one of, if not the, most moral, diciplined, polite and friendly people in the world.
Japan has the lowest crime-related death rate compared to it's population in the whole world.
Because they are rooted from a strong tradition which is rooted from religions of years ago.
I saw a movie from a concert in Japan. Once the concer was over, the whole place was a mess. And did you know what practically all of them did?
Picked up all the trash in their vincinity and recycled it.
Oh, yes. Secularism is bad indeed. |
Secularism IS bad--and so what? That doesn't mean much. If we were excempt from religion, especially in America, things would be horrible!
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Captain Dappet
Forum Revolutionist
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 16756
Location: On my supersonic rocket ship.
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| Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:40 pm |
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Without Religion there will be no morals? It has nothing to with Religion.
It's called common sense. No one should need Religion to have morals.
And if morals come from Religion, how come so many use religion as a reason to kill someone?
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:08 pm |
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| Captain Dappet wrote: | Without Religion there will be no morals? It has nothing to with Religion.
It's called common sense. No one should need Religion to have morals.
And if morals come from Religion, how come so many use religion as a reason to kill someone? |
Oh my goodness! It has almost EVERYTHING to do with religion! For cripses sake, morals does NOT have nothing to do with religion.
Well, you raise an interesting point in that last statement, but I would have to say that in some cases it can be wrong, but it depends on the religion, but in the overwhelming case, with religion comes morals.
But you say that religion has NOTHING to do with Morals.
Well, what about God? And Jesus?
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:26 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | 4EvaJaneway wrote: |
And according to the Catholic Chatichism, for Gay people to be together is okay, and for people to be Gay is okay, but when Gay people want to be married, thats not okay. |
No, that is NOT true. It goes AGAINST Catholic beliefs to even BE gay--I know, I'm a catholic. |
Actually, she's right. Someone told my class (they had a degree in theology) that it isn't a sin to be gay, only the act of sexual intercourse with a person of the same sex is a sin. And that's because you're having sex without the purpose being to have children. Same reason that it's a sin to use condoms and *beep* (according to the Catholic Church).
Why would the Catholic Church's idea of an ever-loving god have it a sin to be something you can't help? Would be rather pointless. |
It IS a sin to be gay--that person is wrong. It is a key thing that goes against the Catholic Church, and that's the truth. And God would still have that be a sin and it's not pointless--he knows that it's wrong and it is what it is. |
They have a masters degree in theology, and teach it, too. I highly doubt that they're wrong. How can it be a sin to be something you can't help? That seems rather twisted and malevolent on god's part. It's a "key thing" to have sex without the purpose of having children, as I said before. It's not a sin to be gay, only to have sexual intercourse with another member of the same sex.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:28 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | 4EvaJaneway wrote: |
And according to the Catholic Chatichism, for Gay people to be together is okay, and for people to be Gay is okay, but when Gay people want to be married, thats not okay. |
No, that is NOT true. It goes AGAINST Catholic beliefs to even BE gay--I know, I'm a catholic. |
Actually, she's right. Someone told my class (they had a degree in theology) that it isn't a sin to be gay, only the act of sexual intercourse with a person of the same sex is a sin. And that's because you're having sex without the purpose being to have children. Same reason that it's a sin to use condoms and *beep* (according to the Catholic Church).
Why would the Catholic Church's idea of an ever-loving god have it a sin to be something you can't help? Would be rather pointless. |
It IS a sin to be gay--that person is wrong. It is a key thing that goes against the Catholic Church, and that's the truth. And God would still have that be a sin and it's not pointless--he knows that it's wrong and it is what it is. |
They have a masters degree in theology, and teach it, too. I highly doubt that they're wrong. How can it be a sin to be something you can't help? That seems rather twisted and malevolent on god's part. It's a "key thing" to have sex without the purpose of having children, as I said before. It's not a sin to be gay, only to have sexual intercourse with another member of the same sex. |
Hey, Intrepid, I AM CATHOLIC AND MY CHURCH PREACHES THAT!!! PLUS, THE POPE SAYS THAT IT'S A SIN AND SO DO ALL THE CATHOLIC BISHOPS, OKAY!!!! SO YOU DON'T TELL ME THAT A THEOLOGIST KNOWS MORE THAN THE POPE HIMSELF!!!! It IS A SIN, Damn it! It's specififcally stated in the bible!! (And you can't have intercourse then, can you?)
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
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Location: New York
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| Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:32 pm |
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Well, whoopdidoo for you! I'm Catholic, too, so welcome to the ever member decreasing club! The pope says it's a sin to be gay, and by that he means it's a sin to have sex with another man/woman. As I said before, how could it be a sin to be something you can't help? I don't think that's a god that anybody would want to worship, who makes it a sin to be something, which you have no control over, 
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:35 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Well, whoopdidoo for you! I'm Catholic, too, so welcome to the ever member decreasing club! The pope says it's a sin to be gay, and by that he means it's a sin to have sex with another man/woman. As I said before, how could it be a sin to be something you can't help? I don't think that's a god that anybody would want to worship, who makes it a sin to be something, which you have no control over, |
No, it's completely a Sin, NOT JUST gay sex. And the POPE ACKNOWLEDGES IT. Now, make your last statement about this topic, I'll respond, and then we'll get back on topic.
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:41 pm |
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We are on topic, Seperation of church and state has to do with gay marriage, which is what we're talking about. I'd say that the pope's degree, is a tad out dated.
| Bible wrote: | Leviticus 20:13: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
Leviticus 18:22 (KJV): "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind it is abomination."
Romans 1:24-32:
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. |
The Bible appears to concur with me.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:47 pm |
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The statements about "Thou shalt not lie with another man" do not necessarily mean sex. In my opinion, and the opinion of many others, it means that being gay is wrong and is a sin.
But then again, Ms. Intrepid, the Bible is always up for interpretation, but it is my STRONG STRONG STRONG BELIEF that God opposes gay actions PERIOD, as it is with the Pope as well.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Fri Aug 13, 2004 2:24 pm |
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It's Mr. Need to change the av, I guess.
What else could "lie" mean?  Well, I'd like to think that it isn't a sin to be something you can't help, however I can understand what I believe,
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Captain Dappet
Forum Revolutionist
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 16756
Location: On my supersonic rocket ship.
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| Fri Aug 13, 2004 2:37 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | Captain Dappet wrote: | Without Religion there will be no morals? It has nothing to with Religion.
It's called common sense. No one should need Religion to have morals.
And if morals come from Religion, how come so many use religion as a reason to kill someone? |
Oh my goodness! It has almost EVERYTHING to do with religion! For cripses sake, morals does NOT have nothing to do with religion.
Well, you raise an interesting point in that last statement, but I would have to say that in some cases it can be wrong, but it depends on the religion, but in the overwhelming case, with religion comes morals.
But you say that religion has NOTHING to do with Morals.
Well, what about God? And Jesus? |
What about them? They're symbols. They are there so that the people, back when it was written, had something superior and divine to put their trust in, because they always had in the past(The Roman Emperors). The Bible could just as well have been a handbook on Morals, but without the stories and characters, but people of that time would not read or believe it if it was.
It does not neccesarily have to be Religion.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:11 pm |
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| Quote: | | It does not neccesarily have to be Religion. |
You need religion for high morals.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Captain Dappet
Forum Revolutionist
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 16756
Location: On my supersonic rocket ship.
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| Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:15 pm |
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I am not religious. Are you then saying I am immoral?
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:25 pm |
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| Captain Dappet wrote: | | I am not religious. Are you then saying I am immoral? |
No, I am not. I am just saying that without religion in public life, there will be no morals. However, you would be surrounded my many people of faith, and so that keeps morals in your life.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Angeldust
The Mob Queen
Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 6498
Location: In your most wonderful, screwed up dreams. :P
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| Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:25 pm |
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| Quote: | | You need religion for high morals. |
You are walking on dangerous ground, here RM. I will not dignify this with a response other than that.[/quote]
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"You want to dance with the angels? Then embroider me with gold; and I will fly with the angels...and you can dance with me."
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