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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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 Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:32 pm |
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It's not that simple. Instead of condemning others let's try to help them. We can be against abortion and fight to stop it without telling people that they don't have morals.
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Voyager`
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Aug 2001
Posts: 2579
Location: Iowa
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| Sun Aug 01, 2004 12:28 am |
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i agree with RM i am absolutly against abortion it is wrong no matter how early
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Sun Aug 01, 2004 12:34 am |
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I only support abortion if the mother is at risk for death, then it should be her choice. In all other situations is shoud be illegal.
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"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Sun Aug 01, 2004 7:59 am |
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I disagree. The mother has no right to kill. Baby lives no matter what. Now I can see if the baby has no brain. but other than that, I would die and let my baby live and I said in another topic similar, I was going to with my second son. It was a miracle that I lived and David. But if it came down to it, I would die in order for David to live. I am not crazy, just being a good mom. That is not selfish.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sun Aug 01, 2004 12:08 pm |
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| kmma wrote: | | I disagree. The mother has no right to kill. Baby lives no matter what. Now I can see if the baby has no brain. but other than that, I would die and let my baby live and I said in another topic similar, I was going to with my second son. It was a miracle that I lived and David. But if it came down to it, I would die in order for David to live. I am not crazy, just being a good mom. That is not selfish. |
I completely agree. It is murder, no matter how you look at it. There are VERY few exceptions in my opinion as well.
And you know what--It's a similar arguement to cloning.
If you cloned a human being and killed it in order to take a body part for another, that's still murder because it is a living being.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Scapegoat Bob
Commodore
Joined: 02 Sep 2001
Posts: 1198
Location: The Barn
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| Sun Aug 01, 2004 12:31 pm |
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In forcing the woman to die to save the baby, aren't you also committing murder? 
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Here, kitty kitty kitty!
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sun Aug 01, 2004 12:34 pm |
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| Scapegoat Bob wrote: | | In forcing the woman to die to save the baby, aren't you also committing murder? |
Interesting point, but no. If the mother's life was in danger, she should be willing to give her life for her child. If it is in GRAVE danger and she wants to be an idiot and murder the baby, then perhaps it may happen.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Scapegoat Bob
Commodore
Joined: 02 Sep 2001
Posts: 1198
Location: The Barn
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| Sun Aug 01, 2004 12:35 pm |
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Valid point, but yes. That is precisely why the woman should be able to choose in that scenario.
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Here, kitty kitty kitty!
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sun Aug 01, 2004 12:36 pm |
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| Scapegoat Bob wrote: | | Valid point, but yes. That is precisely why the woman should be able to choose in that scenario. |
But, mind you, she would have to be in GRAVE danger.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Scapegoat Bob
Commodore
Joined: 02 Sep 2001
Posts: 1198
Location: The Barn
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| Sun Aug 01, 2004 12:37 pm |
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If there is any danger that she may die, she should be able to choose. Forcing someone to run any risk of death is a breach of basic human rights.
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Here, kitty kitty kitty!
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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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| Sun Aug 01, 2004 5:05 pm |
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Sometimes the mum cannot have the decission, such as in an emergency. My dad was a doctor and there was a case he had to rush into, where he had the choice of killing the baby or the mother to save the other one. If he made the wrong choice both would die. He went and saved the baby, but the mother died in the process. It was found out after that he had made the right choice, as the mother had had something that would have killed her anyway. But what happens if the doctor has to make a decission and he doesn't know what one will survive, but it is more likely the mother will? Should he/she still try for the baby?
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Sun Aug 01, 2004 6:30 pm |
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Charlie knows, I would die in order to save our child. A child's life is worth than mine . To kill an innocent child is wrong and not moral. To be sefhish, how cruel.
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Starbuck
faster...
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 8715
Location: between chaos and melody
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| Sun Aug 01, 2004 7:35 pm |
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I did a whole report on this topic, if you have a specific question, I'd be happy to answer it.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Sun Aug 01, 2004 10:16 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | I only support abortion if the mother is at risk for death, then it should be her choice. In all other situations is shoud be illegal. |
I pretty much agree with Aaron. I mean, in a perfect world, everyone would live, and in a semi-perfect world, a parent would always give their life for their children, but sometimes that is not feasible. I mean, what if it's a newly single mother, with other children, and no one to care for them if she dies? All of those children would be put in orphanages or foster care, and consider themselves incredibly fortunate to even see each other on holidays.
Besides, you don't know what you'd do until you are faced with that situation. I can easily say right now that I'd step in front of a bullet for anyone in my family, because I am not in any immediate danger. But who's to know how you'll react in a crisis situation? I've seen some people get hysterical, and they are totally incapable of making decisions for themselves, then you have people like me, who basically just shut down emotionally, and react.
Abortion as birth control is wrong. But as a life saving procedure? I don't know.
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Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Admiral_Tom_Paris
Commodore
Joined: 01 Aug 2003
Posts: 1785
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| Tue Aug 03, 2004 8:02 pm |
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I think abortion is okay in some situations, like if someone was raped at age 14 then they should have an abortion but not anything else.
As for my thoughts on cloning, I don't think that they can clone sentientcy so they should clone and then kill it in order to save it.
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Galadriel
Captain
Joined: 08 Sep 2001
Posts: 729
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| Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:53 pm |
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As I recall, it's been proven that abortion is never necessary to save the mother's life. Abortion isn't used to save the mother's life, it's used to destroy a child that is viewed as an inconvenience.
My opinion. 
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:58 pm |
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| Galadriel wrote: | As I recall, it's been proven that abortion is never necessary to save the mother's life. Abortion isn't used to save the mother's life, it's used to destroy a child that is viewed as an inconvenience.
My opinion. |
Interesting...Are you sure that it's never been proven necessary?
If so, then good point.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Kyre
Commodore
Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 1263
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| Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:18 pm |
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| Galadriel wrote: | As I recall, it's been proven that abortion is never necessary to save the mother's life. Abortion isn't used to save the mother's life, it's used to destroy a child that is viewed as an inconvenience.
My opinion. |
How can a fact be your opinion? Either it hasn't been proven, and it really is your opinion, or it has been proven. In the case of the latter, I'd like to see it.
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Angeldust
The Mob Queen
Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 6498
Location: In your most wonderful, screwed up dreams. :P
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| Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:44 pm |
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The fact still remains that it is not the governments place to legislate an issue like this. Period.
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"You want to dance with the angels? Then embroider me with gold; and I will fly with the angels...and you can dance with me."
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:59 pm |
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| Admiral_Tom_Paris wrote: | I think abortion is okay in some situations, like if someone was raped at age 14 then they should have an abortion but not anything else.
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...might I just intervene and say that cases like these are extremely, extremely rare. The likelihood of having a child from rape is quite low...not impossible, of course, but these do not account for the majority of abortions in any way.
And Angeldust, depends on how you look at it. You see it as murder--then yes. The government can darn well prevent murders with legislation.
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Angeldust
The Mob Queen
Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 6498
Location: In your most wonderful, screwed up dreams. :P
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| Thu Aug 05, 2004 9:05 pm |
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The problem with that is: What is the definition of murder?
Webster says : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought.
Killing a PERSON... the problem is a fetus is not a sentient lifeform. The debate is that if the fetus cannot survive outside the womb on its own, it is not a PERSON. It is not dissimilar to saying that a virus is a PERSON. It is alive, and maybe a great deal smaller than a fetus, but it is more sentient than a fetus, and it can survive without the help of another life form... you see the dilemma. How do you define a person?
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"You want to dance with the angels? Then embroider me with gold; and I will fly with the angels...and you can dance with me."
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Thu Aug 05, 2004 9:10 pm |
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You're killing something that otherwise would become a natural, fully functioning human being, if it were not for an outside force involved. Killing. You can go out into a tidepool and kill a sea star. Or a few hundred. Hey, lets kill a few thousand. If someone went on a rampage, killing sea stars and the like, I think someone would get mad. Sea stars can't feel, don't have hearts...why not? So a fetus is nothing more than a sea star or nudibranch, you think?
And consider this: What if we're not talking about ONE abortion? What about...say...a woman who's had ten? Should she be allowed to keep aborting child after child? It happens.
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Angeldust
The Mob Queen
Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 6498
Location: In your most wonderful, screwed up dreams. :P
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| Thu Aug 05, 2004 9:14 pm |
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| Quote: | | And consider this: What if we're not talking about ONE abortion? What about...say...a woman who's had ten? Should she be allowed to keep aborting child after child? It happens. |
Now, with this I think most everyone agrees. I do not think it is right for a woman to use abortion as a form of birth control. But again, I would not impose my own belief system on another person...
I do not believe that most women take the decision to have a child or not to have a child lightly. I know women that have had abortions, that are still guilty about it to this day. They pay for it. In their own way.
| Quote: | | You're killing something that otherwise would become a natural, fully functioning human being, |
I don't really want to get into the what if scenario....philosophical arguments about whether or not that child would be born anyway can get particularly messy... ick...
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"You want to dance with the angels? Then embroider me with gold; and I will fly with the angels...and you can dance with me."
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Thu Aug 05, 2004 11:44 pm |
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| Angeldust wrote: | | The fact still remains that it is not the governments place to legislate an issue like this. Period. |
Then if that holds true the government doesn't have the power to legislate murder or manslaughter either.
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Voyager`
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Aug 2001
Posts: 2579
Location: Iowa
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| Fri Aug 06, 2004 12:09 am |
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This is a topic which I am strongly opposed to.Abortion should be outlawed. there is no reason for it unless the mother and baby will both be dead if she gives birth and the mother can be saved by aborting, not if the mother will die and the baby will live then i dont think it should be aborted any parent should be willing to give their life for their baby and kids. If the baby is unwanted they can always put it up for adoption then some couple thats wants kids but are unable to have them can take care of them. If someone thinks they should have the power to choose wether their baby lives or dies should maybe be blessed with a little taste of there own medicine and be aborted! I mean some of them could be drunks or drug addicts so hey they might be in a different reality and wouldnt feel any pain or be aware of it either. Would you have like it if someone decided that they didnt want you so they just killed you before you even had a chance? I know i sure wouldn't
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