| Author |
Message |
Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
|
 Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:07 pm Cold War Debate |
|
| Founder wrote: | | Quote: | | You are always going to get someone who disagrees with war whatever the reasons. |
Thats true but the reasons stated havent been valid.(i dont mean just on the forum but all over the place) War is bad? Yes we know that. We dont like war but sometimes its needed. I doubt Saddam and the terorrist will surrender without a fight. Peace talks mean nothing to them except more time to build weapon and support. I saw a lady talk on the Democratic convention and she hates that Bush spends a lot of money on making newer weapons. She says "Why make more weapons?". I'll answer that madam. We make more weapons because if we dont our enemies will. As we speak, all over the world nations are building stronger weapons. Why are we the strongest nation? Yes it has a lot to do with democracy but it has to do with having the most powerful weapons. |
| RM wrote: | | Good point. And look at what happened to the Soviet Union. Reagan was building up arms and meeting the needs of the race to get ahead of the Soviets, and then what happened? We won the war and the Union collapsed. |
| Jeremy wrote: | | America almost collapsed in the process though. It was a matter of who would collapse first. The reasons that have been shown before have all been good, but the thing is that some people think they weren't the real reasons that we went though, and some other reasons (I won't bother saying as you will know them well by now) where actually the case. You may disagree, but that is their view and probably nothing you say will make a difference. In the same way you have your views which they should respect. |
That is simply NOT true. The US was NOT about to collapse.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
|
|
|
Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
|
| Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:10 pm |
|
I dont know about collapse. I think a bigger deal would have been made if we were near ruin.
|
|
|
Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
|
| Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:14 pm |
|
| Founder wrote: | | I dont know about collapse. I think a bigger deal would have been made if we were near ruin. |
Just look at history. With the arms buildup during the Reagan years, Reagan kept trying to outspend the Soviet Union, which he did. When Kerry wanted a Nuclear Freeze, we were winning the war. We were NOT on the verge of collapse.
Of course, that wasn't all the Cold War was about.
It was also about which form of government was better and could survive longer: Democracy or Communism.
Obviously Democracy is better and it won.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
|
|
|
Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
|
| Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:17 pm |
|
From your signiture it seems Kerry flip flops on how he feels about topics. You say he even pushed for a nulcear freeze? A thing I dont like about him is that he flip flops on important issues. How can someone like that run the White house or america for that matter?
|
|
|
Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
|
| Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:19 pm |
|
| Founder wrote: | | From your signiture it seems Kerry flip flops on how he feels about topics. You say he even pushed for a nulcear freeze? A thing I dont like about him is that he flip flops on important issues. How can someone like that run the White house or america for that matter? |
Let's stick to the Cold War, but I'll start a new thread for Kerry/Bush.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
|
|
|
Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
|
| Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:20 pm |
|
[quote="Republican_Man"] | Founder wrote: | | I dont know about collapse. I think a bigger deal would have been made if we were near ruin. |
Just look at history. With the arms buildup during the Reagan years, Reagan kept trying to outspend the Soviet Union, which he did. When Kerry wanted a Nuclear Freeze, we were winning the war. We were NOT on the verge of collapse.
quote]
If we WERE trying to out-spend them, it is possible that had his plan not been successful, we could have been being pushed to collapse. I am not that knowledgable on any specifics about the issue, however, it could seem that saying we were headed towards collapse ourselves could be true depending on how you veiw it.
|
|
|
Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
|
| Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:29 pm |
|
[quote="JanewayIsHott"][quote="Republican_Man"] | Founder wrote: | | I dont know about collapse. I think a bigger deal would have been made if we were near ruin. |
Just look at history. With the arms buildup during the Reagan years, Reagan kept trying to outspend the Soviet Union, which he did. When Kerry wanted a Nuclear Freeze, we were winning the war. We were NOT on the verge of collapse.
| Quote: |
If we WERE trying to out-spend them, it is possible that had his plan not been successful, we could have been being pushed to collapse. I am not that knowledgable on any specifics about the issue, however, it could seem that saying we were headed towards collapse ourselves could be true depending on how you veiw it. |
I had to do a report on Reagan, so I am quite knowledgable about this, but I can just tell that we weren't going to collapse.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
|
|
|
Captain Dappet
Forum Revolutionist
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 16756
Location: On my supersonic rocket ship.
|
| Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:52 pm |
|
If you didn't notice, the U.S.S.R had major problems with it's population and that has nothing to do with the U.S. The Cold War ended, because Gorbachev resigned, after the coup led by Yeltsin and the Soviet Union collapsed.
In fact, since the end of the Second World War, when the Soviet Union didn't do all that bad, if you discount Stalin...But there would be a new leader eventually, America did EVERYTHING to make things hard for the Russians. Instead of helping a relatively new and unstable nation to get a foothold, what did they do? They pushed it. Just tried to make everything sour for them. And in the end, I guess it paid off.
It is my theory, that it is in fact America's doing that the U.S.S.R turned into the tyrannical Stalinist dictatorship that it was for so long.
|
|
|
Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
|
| Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:59 pm |
|
| Captain Dappet wrote: | If you didn't notice, the U.S.S.R had major problems with it's population and that has nothing to do with the U.S. The Cold War ended, because Gorbachev resigned, after the coup led by Yeltsin and the Soviet Union collapsed.
In fact, since the end of the Second World War, when the Soviet Union didn't do all that bad, if you discount Stalin...But there would be a new leader eventually, America did EVERYTHING to make things hard for the Russians. Instead of helping a relatively new and unstable nation to get a
foothold, what did they do? They pushed it. Just tried to make everything sour for them. And in the end, I guess it paid off.
It is my theory, that it is in fact America's doing that the U.S.S.R turned into the tyrannical Stalinist dictatorship that it was for so long. |
Well, so they had population problems, but still. And who influenced Gorbachev's resignation but RONALD REAGAN. His speech at the Brandburg Gate.
| Ronald Reagan wrote: | | General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall! |
That had a GREAT influence on the fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the Union. Plus, the Arms race. Plus, Democracy is better.
| Quote: | | Instead of helping a relatively new and unstable nation to get a foothold, what did they do? They pushed it. Just tried to make everything sour for them. And in the end, I guess it paid off. |
You obviously do not know the premise of the situation. It was not something that we would have to fix--it started out as a horrible communist nation during 1st World War (the Revolution) and there was nothing we could have done. Plus, when the communists won that war, it was becoming there nation, and there was nothing we could, and would be allowed, to do, and we pushed it for good reasons, and yes, it worked.
An exerpt from my Reagan Report:
| Quote: | The Soviet Union & Communism:
The Soviet Union was a force of terror on Earth. It was the country that showed the evils and wrongs of communism and the only other super-power on the planet and was an empire that fell, thanks to the efforts of Ronald Reagan. The Cold War was truly about proving whether communism or democracy could prevail. Communism is not an economic system, but rather a government system with extreme socialist economic views. In the communist system, the government controls all aspects of society, from the economy to speech, to religion, to the press, and many more things. Democracy, in conjunction with capitalism, on the other hand, allows for the exact opposite of things. There is, in the United States, for instance, freedom of speech and religion and many other freedoms. Due to that fact, Democracy was proven to be better than communism, and thanks to Reagan, that fact allowed for the USSR to fail.
Reagan would go on to call, in a speech, the USSR an "evil empire." They knew that they were evil--they just didn�t think that the other countries knew that, and so they got nervous. This statement eventually lead to his increasing support in the Berlin Wall area around Germany, which in turn lead to his "Remarks at the Brandburg Gate." This speech, of which will be discussed more shortly, sparked the fire that would burn down, pardon the pun, the Berlin Wall and truly allowed for the collapse of the once vast empire.
The most memorable lines of the "Remarks that Opened Eyes" were, "�We welcome change and openness; for we believe that freedom and security go together, that the advance of human liberty can only strengthen the cause of world peace. There is one sign the Soviets can make that would be unmistakable, that would advance dramatically the cause of freedom and peace. General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"e remarks would play the most significant role in the ending of the tyranny of the Soviet Union and the danger of a grave threat. |
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
|
|
|
Captain Dappet
Forum Revolutionist
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 16756
Location: On my supersonic rocket ship.
|
| Thu Jul 29, 2004 7:14 pm |
|
And no, it did not start out as a "horrible communist nation". Lenin led the country well, even though I question his choices for members of the Party(Felix Dzherzhinsky, Joseph Stalin). The Russian people had lived in oppression by the Tzar for many decades, and it was just a matter of time before he would be brought down. I feel bad for the last Tzar, however, that he lived in such troubled times. He was not a good leader. He made many mistakes, that caused much bloodshed that could've been avoided.
I distantly admire Reagan, though, for his devotion to liberty. I admire Gorbachev even more, though, for at least trying to give the U.S.S.R freedom, even though he failed. There were many things he could've done better, I admit. The wall is an example. He could've demolished it, it was in his power to do so. But he wanted to do things slow, and the Soviet population did not have patience for it.
Furthermore, Communism doesn't have to be a "evil empire", and the U.S.S.R were NOT evil. They were an unstable country still, and they would've made progress, if you just had minded your own business and left them alone from the very start. However, history shows that the U.S has great trouble in minding their own business.
|
|
|
Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
|
| Thu Jul 29, 2004 7:28 pm |
|
| Captain Dappet wrote: | And no, it did not start out as a "horrible communist nation". Lenin led the country well, even though I question his choices for members of the Party(Felix Dzherzhinsky, Joseph Stalin). The Russian people had lived in oppression by the Tzar for many decades, and it was just a matter of time before he would be brought down. I feel bad for the last Tzar, however, that he lived in such troubled times. He was not a good leader. He made many mistakes, that caused much bloodshed that could've been avoided.
It WAS a horrible nation. The leaders were evil rom the start! Those are interesting points, however.
I distantly admire Reagan, though, for his devotion to liberty. I admire Gorbachev even more, though, for at least trying to give the U.S.S.R freedom, even though he failed. There were many things he could've done better, I admit. The wall is an example. He could've demolished it, it was in his power to do so. But he wanted to do things slow, and the Soviet population did not have patience for it.
Gorbachev did NOT try to give the USSR freedom--and if he did, he hardly did. And he could have done basically EVERYTHING better! He did NOT want the wall to go slow--that is bull.
Furthermore, Communism doesn't have to be a "evil empire", and the U.S.S.R were NOT evil. They were an unstable country still, and they would've made progress, if you just had minded your own business and left them alone from the very start. However, history shows that the U.S has great trouble in minding their own business. |
The USSR WAS evil! It was an evil nation! It was NOT just unstable--it was EVIL. And they did NOT make progress! It would've taken until NOW, if not later! And why is it ALWAYS America's fault!? Why are WE at fault? Why are WE always the bad guys? You FORGET that there was the COLD WAR--the USSR AND THE US WERE ENEMIES SINCE THE END OF WWII!! If was NOT a matter of "minding our own business." The USSR was the GREATEST threat ever! You forget what happened--we were both ENEMIES. And again, why are WE ALWAYS THE BAD GUYS? And we do what we do FOR DEFENSE!
Look, we've freed SO MANY COUNTRIES as opposed to pretty much NONE by France, Germany, Britain, Canada, and more, and what we've done has ALWAYS BEEN FOR THE GOOD. We've helped out SO MANY COUNTRIES, and yet, we are ALWAYS the enemies--the BAD GUYS!
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
|
|
|
Captain Dappet
Forum Revolutionist
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 16756
Location: On my supersonic rocket ship.
|
| Thu Jul 29, 2004 7:44 pm |
|
Ever heard of Glasnost and Perestrojka? That was Gorbachev's policy, and yes, he did try. He let people listen to popular music from the West for the first time in more than a decade! He opened the Soviet Union to the Western Civilization.
And yes, I agree with you, not tearing down the wall at once was wrong of him. But he did try. You must be blind not to notice. Before Glasnost & Perestrojka, there were no punk rockers in the Soviet Union, because their music wasn't allowed.
There was hardly any rock music, either. There was hardly any way for a normal Soviet citizen to know what was going on outside the Union.
These things changed during Gorbachev's time.
If you do not call this progress, I don't know what is.
And I do not forget that the U.S.S.R and the U.S.A were enemies. But why were you? What did the Soviets ever do to you? What started the Cold War? The Americans trying to stop everything the Soviets did. If a large and powerful nation, one slightly more powerful than America, started making everything you did go wrong and seem wrong to the rest of the world, how would you have reacted?
Would you find yourself in it, and accept it for long? I don't think so.
|
|
|
Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
|
| Thu Jul 29, 2004 7:48 pm |
|
| Captain Dappet wrote: | Ever heard of Glasnost and Perestrojka? That was Gorbachev's policy, and yes, he did try. He let people listen to popular music from the West for the first time in more than a decade! He opened the Soviet Union to the Western Civilization.
And yes, I agree with you, not tearing down the wall at once was wrong of him. But he did try. You must be blind not to notice. Before Glasnost & Perestrojka, there were no punk rockers in the Soviet Union, because their music wasn't allowed.
There was hardly any rock music, either. There was hardly any way for a normal Soviet citizen to know what was going on outside the Union.
These things changed during Gorbachev's time.
If you do not call this progress, I don't know what is.
No, I did not know that. Thank you for the information, but that doesn't mean that he did too much--or at least as much as he should have--and what made him open up to Western Civilization was Reagan and what he did and him calling the Union an "evil empire."
And I do not forget that the U.S.S.R and the U.S.A were enemies. But why were you? What did the Soviets ever do to you? What started the Cold War? The Americans trying to stop everything the Soviets did. If a large and powerful nation, one slightly more powerful than America, started making everything you did go wrong and seem wrong to the rest of the world, how would you have reacted?
Would you find yourself in it, and accept it for long? I don't think so. |
It was NOT America's fault that started it. It started out as a space race, and then got more than that. And we did NOT try to stop everything the Soviets did. It was NOT America's fault. Plus, they were an EVIL Empire, and THAT'S why, if anything, they had to be stopped!
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
|
|
|
Captain Dappet
Forum Revolutionist
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 16756
Location: On my supersonic rocket ship.
|
| Thu Jul 29, 2004 7:57 pm |
|
I wish you'd stop saying they were "evil". Everything is not black and white. They were a disfuctional, and unstable nation, and they did, the K.G.B and N.K.V.D more precisely, many cruel things, but they were not the heart of evil in the world, because there is no such place.
The U.S.S.R wasn't, the U.S isn't, not even Saddam and Iraq were the heart of evil.
Many things were better in the Soviet Union than they are in modern Russia.
"During the Soviet Union, everyone had enough money to buy things, but there was nothing to buy. Nowadays, there is everything to buy, but no one has money"-- Said by a Russian citizen, and I know for a fact that many would agree.
I'll continue this discussion with you later, though. I have to go.
|
|
|
Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
|
| Thu Jul 29, 2004 8:12 pm |
|
| Captain Dappet wrote: | I wish you'd stop saying they were "evil". Everything is not black and white. They were a disfuctional, and unstable nation, and they did, the K.G.B and N.K.V.D more precisely, many cruel things, but they were not the heart of evil in the world, because there is no such place.
The U.S.S.R wasn't, the U.S isn't, not even Saddam and Iraq were the heart of evil.
Many things were better in the Soviet Union than they are in modern Russia.
"During the Soviet Union, everyone had enough money to buy things, but there was nothing to buy. Nowadays, there is everything to buy, but no one has money"-- Said by a Russian citizen, and I know for a fact that many would agree.
I'll continue this discussion with you later, though. I have to go. |
Forgive me for saying this, but I think that you just don't like the United States.
And I never said that they were the "heart" of evil--but they WERE evil. They were an EVIL empire, and I'm NOT being Black and white about it. And so they "had more 'money'" to buy things--that doesn't justify an empire like that. And the US is NOT evil and NEVER has been. We've HELPED SO MANY countries out, MANY more than the rest of the world.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
|
|
|
Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
|
| Thu Jul 29, 2004 8:25 pm |
|
Republican_Man you made an excellant point. Its funny isnt it? We help tons of nations left and right and we get a "we'll if ya'll want to be the most powerful nation in the world your required to help us!" Yet we make a few mistakes and we are an imperialistic army of doom.  I guess this qoute fits here.
"The problem is the terrorist only have to be right once but, we have to be right all the time."
After Iraq, we are now "evil". George Bush is a bad bad man.
|
|
|
Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
|
| Fri Jul 30, 2004 8:20 am |
|
| Republican_Man wrote: | The USSR WAS evil! It was an evil nation! It was NOT just unstable--it was EVIL. And they did NOT make progress! It would've taken until NOW, if not later! And why is it ALWAYS America's fault!? Why are WE at fault? Why are WE always the bad guys? You FORGET that there was the COLD WAR--the USSR AND THE US WERE ENEMIES SINCE THE END OF WWII!! If was NOT a matter of "minding our own business." The USSR was the GREATEST threat ever! You forget what happened--we were both ENEMIES. And again, why are WE ALWAYS THE BAD GUYS? And we do what we do FOR DEFENSE!
Look, we've freed SO MANY COUNTRIES as opposed to pretty much NONE by France, Germany, Britain, Canada, and more, and what we've done has ALWAYS BEEN FOR THE GOOD. We've helped out SO MANY COUNTRIES, and yet, we are ALWAYS the enemies--the BAD GUYS! |
Perhaps it is because you always consider yourselfs right, and that you can sort out everyones problems. America can be very trigger happy and maybe you should let other countries solve their problems for once. Also some of you are extremly arrogant and believe you are always right. That is not true. You can be wrong and bad as well. Enough ranting, and I appologise if I have offended anyone, but I needed to get it out of my system.
I rather think Iraq was not about to destroy America either. If it was the terrorists that you were after why don't you go after countries like Syria and Iran? They have just as many, if not more Islamic Fundamentalists that would attack America. In fact Iraq was a secular state and wasn't wanting to fund muslims. Bin Laden had asked and been told no.
Getting back to the main topic America was near to collapsing as well. I haven't found the book I read it in, but it's true. Do you think the USA would tell everyone that it was near collapsing? Not likely, the same with the USSR at the time.
|
|
|
Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
|
| Fri Jul 30, 2004 8:21 am |
|
We are not bad thats your opinion and yes take offense to that.
|
|
|
Captain Dappet
Forum Revolutionist
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 16756
Location: On my supersonic rocket ship.
|
| Fri Jul 30, 2004 5:08 pm |
|
| Republican_Man wrote: | | Captain Dappet wrote: | I wish you'd stop saying they were "evil". Everything is not black and white. They were a disfuctional, and unstable nation, and they did, the K.G.B and N.K.V.D more precisely, many cruel things, but they were not the heart of evil in the world, because there is no such place.
The U.S.S.R wasn't, the U.S isn't, not even Saddam and Iraq were the heart of evil.
Many things were better in the Soviet Union than they are in modern Russia.
"During the Soviet Union, everyone had enough money to buy things, but there was nothing to buy. Nowadays, there is everything to buy, but no one has money"-- Said by a Russian citizen, and I know for a fact that many would agree.
I'll continue this discussion with you later, though. I have to go. |
Forgive me for saying this, but I think that you just don't like the United States.
And I never said that they were the "heart" of evil--but they WERE evil. They were an EVIL empire, and I'm NOT being Black and white about it. And so they "had more 'money'" to buy things--that doesn't justify an empire like that. And the US is NOT evil and NEVER has been. We've HELPED SO MANY countries out, MANY more than the rest of the world. |
You've helped many, yes. But you've also ruined for many. You aided the Taliban, for example, against the Russians in Afghanistan. The U.S.S.R were doing exactly what you are/were doing. Liberating the nation. An Afghani Communism might not have been all that bad. And it defenitely would've been better than the Taliban Government.
The U.S.S.R were more like the U.S than you want to think. They were just not as stable as America, in nearly all aspects, but other than that, they were practically the same. Just on the other side of the fence.
I do not support the cruel acts committed by the K.G.B in any way. But I cant sit idly by and allow you to call the whole nation, ideology and system "evil", because they were not.
|
|
|
Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
|
| Fri Jul 30, 2004 9:57 pm |
|
| Jeremy wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | The USSR WAS evil! It was an evil nation! It was NOT just unstable--it was EVIL. And they did NOT make progress! It would've taken until NOW, if not later! And why is it ALWAYS America's fault!? Why are WE at fault? Why are WE always the bad guys? You FORGET that there was the COLD WAR--the USSR AND THE US WERE ENEMIES SINCE THE END OF WWII!! If was NOT a matter of "minding our own business." The USSR was the GREATEST threat ever! You forget what happened--we were both ENEMIES. And again, why are WE ALWAYS THE BAD GUYS? And we do what we do FOR DEFENSE!
Look, we've freed SO MANY COUNTRIES as opposed to pretty much NONE by France, Germany, Britain, Canada, and more, and what we've done has ALWAYS BEEN FOR THE GOOD. We've helped out SO MANY COUNTRIES, and yet, we are ALWAYS the enemies--the BAD GUYS! |
Perhaps it is because you always consider yourselfs right, and that you can sort out everyones problems. America can be very trigger happy and maybe you should let other countries solve their problems for once. Also some of you are extremly arrogant and believe you are always right. That is not true. You can be wrong and bad as well. Enough ranting, and I appologise if I have offended anyone, but I needed to get it out of my system.
We have ALWAYS done things with good intentions, Jeff. And we've acted for the most part to PROTECT OUR COUNTRY. You're trigger-happy comment is incorrect. We act for GOOD reasons. We CAN be wrong, but I see nothing that we HAVE been wrong with. (And you did offend me, and ALL Americans should be as well.)
I rather think Iraq was not about to destroy America either. If it was the terrorists that you were after why don't you go after countries like Syria and Iran? They have just as many, if not more Islamic Fundamentalists that would attack America. In fact Iraq was a secular state and wasn't wanting to fund muslims. Bin Laden had asked and been told no.
The Intelligence told us that Iraq was GOING TO ATTACK THE US, and that it was an IMMINENT threat! We HAVE to act on threats to our country! And yes, they support terrorists more than Saddam did, but at the time they posed no Immidiate threat. And Iraq was NOT a secular state.
Getting back to the main topic America was near to collapsing as well. I haven't found the book I read it in, but it's true. Do you think the USA would tell everyone that it was near collapsing? Not likely, the same with the USSR at the time. |
And what book is that?
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
|
|
|
Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
|
| Fri Jul 30, 2004 10:01 pm |
|
| Captain Dappet wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | Captain Dappet wrote: | I wish you'd stop saying they were "evil". Everything is not black and white. They were a disfuctional, and unstable nation, and they did, the K.G.B and N.K.V.D more precisely, many cruel things, but they were not the heart of evil in the world, because there is no such place.
The U.S.S.R wasn't, the U.S isn't, not even Saddam and Iraq were the heart of evil.
Many things were better in the Soviet Union than they are in modern Russia.
"During the Soviet Union, everyone had enough money to buy things, but there was nothing to buy. Nowadays, there is everything to buy, but no one has money"-- Said by a Russian citizen, and I know for a fact that many would agree.
I'll continue this discussion with you later, though. I have to go. |
Forgive me for saying this, but I think that you just don't like the United States.
And I never said that they were the "heart" of evil--but they WERE evil. They were an EVIL empire, and I'm NOT being Black and white about it. And so they "had more 'money'" to buy things--that doesn't justify an empire like that. And the US is NOT evil and NEVER has been. We've HELPED SO MANY countries out, MANY more than the rest of the world. |
You've helped many, yes. But you've also ruined for many. You aided the Taliban, for example, against the Russians in Afghanistan. The U.S.S.R were doing exactly what you are/were doing. Liberating the nation. An Afghani Communism might not have been all that bad. And it defenitely would've been better than the Taliban Government.
I don't know enough about that situation to comment.
The U.S.S.R were more like the U.S than you want to think. They were just not as stable as America, in nearly all aspects, but other than that, they were practically the same. Just on the other side of the fence.
I wasn't the one who said that they were unstable, even though they were somewhat but I belive that YOU did. And America WAS MORE stable, and remember:
-Factor: Arms race: The US outspent the USSR
-Factor: Democracy is better than communism
I do not support the cruel acts committed by the K.G.B in any way. But I cant sit idly by and allow you to call the whole nation, ideology and system "evil", because they were not. |
They WERE evil. (Not all the people, but primarily the gov't and gov't system) Reagan was correct in his statement.
And another factor:
When Reagan called the USSR and "evil empire," they realized that they were evil but thought that no one knew it.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
|
|
|
Captain Dappet
Forum Revolutionist
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 16756
Location: On my supersonic rocket ship.
|
| Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:42 am |
|
That's bull. Of course they knew that people thought they were "evil". They weren't stupid.
Answers to your factors:
-Factor 1: Arms Race: The U.S outspent the U.S.S.R. Because America was a more stable and more economically powerful nation.
Factor 2: Democracy is better than Communism. Democracy and Communism can go hand in hand. It's just that a Democratic Communism is something no one has tried. There were also major flaws in the system(i.e people could not choose where they would live for themselves. But everyone had somewhere to live, unlike in Capitalism) Communism and Capitalism are both flawed, in their own ways. Capitalism leaves people to starve and die on the streets, Communism doesn't let people choose themselves where to live, but people live somewhere, at least.
|
|
|
Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
|
| Sat Jul 31, 2004 1:25 pm |
|
| Jeremy wrote: |
Perhaps it is because you always consider yourselfs right, and that you can sort out everyones problems. America can be very trigger happy and maybe you should let other countries solve their problems for once. Also some of you are extremly arrogant and believe you are always right. That is not true. You can be wrong and bad as well. Enough ranting, and I appologise if I have offended anyone, but I needed to get it out of my system. |
[quote="Republican_Man]We have ALWAYS done things with good intentions, Jeff. And we've acted for the most part to PROTECT OUR COUNTRY. You're trigger-happy comment is incorrect. We act for GOOD reasons. We CAN be wrong, but I see nothing that we HAVE been wrong with. (And you did offend me, and ALL Americans should be as well.)[/quote]
Not wanting to be nitpicky, but its Jeremy. I want to say sorry for what I said earlier, I had a bad day and went over the top and shouldn't have said it. People here can be just as bad and it doesn't matter what country you're from, its the individual. I wouldn't say most of the attacks have been to protect your country though - Korea, 'Nam, etc.
| Jeremy wrote: | I rather think Iraq was not about to destroy America either. If it was the terrorists that you were after why don't you go after countries like Syria and Iran? They have just as many, if not more Islamic Fundamentalists that would attack America. In fact Iraq was a secular state and wasn't wanting to fund muslims. Bin Laden had asked and been told no. | Jeremy wrote: |
[quote="Republican_Man]The Intelligence told us that Iraq was GOING TO ATTACK THE US, and that it was an IMMINENT threat! We HAVE to act on threats to our country! And yes, they support terrorists more than Saddam did, but at the time they posed no Immidiate threat. And Iraq was NOT a secular state. |
I am totally puzzled about where this information that Iraq was about to attack America came from. I have asked others, and they have no idea as well. The people of Iraq are not secular, but Saddam's government was, and so didn't support religious terrorists.
| Jeremy wrote: | | Getting back to the main topic America was near to collapsing as well. I haven't found the book I read it in, but it's true. Do you think the USA would tell everyone that it was near collapsing? Not likely, the same with the USSR at the time. |
[quote="Republican_Man]And what book is |
Thats why I'm trying to find it now.
|
|
|
Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
|
| Sat Jul 31, 2004 1:43 pm |
|
So something else for people to fight about. Cant ya all just get along?
that is why I choose to stay out try anyway cause people in here are fighting.
|
|
|
Captain Dappet
Forum Revolutionist
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 16756
Location: On my supersonic rocket ship.
|
| Sat Jul 31, 2004 1:55 pm |
|
I don't know about the others, but I'm not being emotional about this, therefore, not fighting. 
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
Star Trek �, in all its various forms, are trademarks & copyrights of Paramount Pictures
This site has no official connection with Star Trek or Paramount Pictures
Site content/Site design elements owned by Morphy and is meant to only be an archive/Tribute to STV.com
|
Search
FAQ
Log in
