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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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 Thu May 20, 2004 4:56 pm Israelis Press On Into Gaza Refugee Camp |
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Israelis Press On Into Gaza Refugee Camp
Thursday, May 20, 2004
RAFAH, Gaza Strip � Israeli troops pushed deeper into the Rafah refugee camp (search) Thursday in search of gunmen and weapons smugglers, killing seven Palestinians and demolishing several buildings despite an international outcry over a deadly tank attack on a group of protesters.
At least eight Palestinians, many of them children, were killed by Israeli fire Wednesday as they demonstrated against the military operation. The sight of bloodied children and reports of overwhelmed doctors treating dozens of wounded people on blood-drenched hospital floors added to world anger.
Israel apologized for the deaths, saying its troops did not deliberately fire on marchers. A preliminary army investigation concluded that a warning shot fired by a tank flew through a building and hit the crowd, security sources said on condition of anonymity.
Israel also blamed the Palestinians, saying gunmen infiltrated the crowd of about 3,000 people protesting the incursion into the Rafah refugee camp. Witnesses denied militants were among the marchers, and Palestinian leaders denounced the incident as a massacre.
The U.N. Security Council (search) passed a resolution condemning the loss of life and Israel's demolition of homes. The United States abstained, the first time in nearly two years it did not exercise its veto on a resolution sharply critical of Israel.
Also Thursday, an Israeli court in Tel Aviv convicted Palestinian uprising leader Marwan Barghouti (search) of overseeing militant attacks that killed five people. Barghouti, a potential successor to Yasser Arafat (search), was acquitted of planning other attacks in which 21 Israelis died.
Barghouti's sentencing is set for June 6, and prosecutors asked for five consecutive life terms.
Brig. Gen. Ruth Yaron, the army's chief spokeswoman, said Thursday the Rafah offensive � dubbed "Operation Rainbow," it is the largest in Gaza in years � would continue until troops obliterate weapons-smuggling tunnels and round up militants along the Gaza-Egypt border.
By Thursday, the army moved into five neighborhoods in the camp, which is home to about 90,000 Palestinians. Exchanges of gunfire were reported, and Israeli Apache helicopters flew overhead.
Residents said Israeli troops demolished eight homes overnight and bulldozers moved into a street Thursday, knocking down two homes and a shop.
"I saw women and children running in the street," resident Mofed Matar said. "They were not able to evacuate any of their belongings."
The army, which said it was checking the report, said it only destroyed homes to uncover tunnels or flush out gunmen using them to attack Israelis.
Matar said the army ordered Palestinian men between the ages of 16 and 45 to surrender at a local school, waving white flags. The army said it was checking that report, too.
A similar mass surrender was ordered in another part of the camp Wednesday. The army said Thursday it had no Rafah men in custody.
Early Thursday, an Israeli missile strike killed three militants in the Rafah camp. The army said the gunmen were approaching Israeli forces.
Hours later, troops fired a tank shell and killed two militants, Palestinian doctors said.
Elsewhere, Rafah hospital director Dr. Ali Mousa said a 37-year-old man died from a gunshot wound to the head and two others, ages 29 and 22, were wounded. Relatives said the men were shot when they ventured onto the roof of their apartment building to check a water tank.
Another body was brought to the hospital Thursday, and the army said troops shot a gunman when he approached Israeli forces in the Tel Sultan area of Rafah
Also, a New York Times correspondent covering the invasin of the Rafah camp escaped a kidnapping attempt by Palestinians, raising concerns that foreign journalists may be facing a new danger in covering Israeli-Palestinian violence.
In the incident Wednesday night, assailants tried to grab James Bennet and force him into a car. Bennet said he screamed for help, and that Palestinian police arrived to help him. After a scuffle, the assailants fled, Bennet said.
Israel raided the Rafah camp less than a week after Palestinian militants killed 13 soldiers in Gaza, including seven along the Egyptian border.
Since Israel launched its operation early Tuesday, 39 Palestinians, including several children, have been killed. Dozens have been wounded, and refugee camp residents have faced power outages and a lack of water.
Local officials warned of a looming humanitarian crisis unless electricity and water supplies were restored.
Water from a well in Tel Sultan could not reach other parts of Rafah because there was no power, said Ashraf Ghonem of the Rafah water department. Israeli tanks prevented workers from repairing generators, he said, and he asked the army to guarantee safe passage to the workers.
"We want water to save our life. Is that too big to ask?" said Tel Sultan resident Salman Abu Jazar, 30. "My wife boiled the lavatory water to prepare the milk for our 11-month-old son."
Humanitarian groups called on Israel to ease its grip on Rafah. The International Committee of the Red Cross called on Israel to exercise "the greatest restraint" and ensure the wounded had access to adequate medical facilities.
Physicians for Human Rights said it petitioned Israel's Supreme Court to allow medical personnel to move freely and let the wounded be evacuated from Rafah.
It also accused the army of using a bulldozer to bury an ambulance that was headed to treat a mother and three children wounded by tank fire.
The army said the bulldozer was trying to clear the way for the ambulance, and it was working "24 hours a day" to facilitate humanitarian aid.
Near the West Bank town of Tulkarem, the army said it killed a Palestinian gunman after a shootout. Palestinian hospital workers confirmed that one man had been killed.
Palestinian officials also said a 13-year-old was shot dead by troops near the West Bank town of Hebron. The army said it fired on a Palestinian throwing a firebomb at soldiers.
In the West Bank town of Qalqilya, the army said troops killed an armed fugitive who tried to flee. It said it wounded a second militant who threw a firebomb, but it had no details on his condition.
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What are the Israeli's hoping to accomplish by this????? Well it certainly isn't peace.
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Captain Dappet
Forum Revolutionist
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 16756
Location: On my supersonic rocket ship.
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| Fri May 21, 2004 5:22 am |
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Free Palestine!
The Israeli's have no desire for peace. Or so it would seem.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Fri May 21, 2004 7:37 am |
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Neither Israel NOR Palestine desire peace.
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Vortex
Squeak Attack
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 7170
Location: The Edge
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| Fri May 21, 2004 12:44 pm |
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Of course, the Israeli's are just another bunch of hypocrites right?
I have heard things like that way to many times, especially by people who have an opinion and no clue what it is all about.
Most of the "palenstines" were from Jordan. Remember that the king of Jordan slaughtered half of them and sent the rest over the border straight into Israel?
| Quote: | WHY HAVE MORE PALESTINIANS BEEN KILLED AND EXPELLED BY ARABS THAN BY ISRAEL?
The PLO has brutally violated scores of agreements signed with Arab regimes, earning notoriety for its treachery, savageness, terrorism, unreliability and corruption. Arafat was chased out of Egypt in the late 1950s due to subversive activities. He was expelled from Syria in 1966 after murdering a few Syrian military officers. Arafat's violent attempt to topple King Hussein in 1970, caused the expulsion of the PLO from Jordan and the Black September Massacre of thousands of Palestinians. During the 1970s he turned peaceful Lebanon into the most turbulent spot in the Mideast, triggering the 1975 Syrian invasion of Lebanon and the Black June 1976 Massacre of Palestinians by Syria. Further subversive attempts in 1983 led to his expulsions, by Syria, from Damascus and Tripoli, Lebanon. His 1983 expulsion from Tripoli, by Syria, was accompanied by more bloodshed. In 1990 Arafat spearheaded Iraq's rape of Kuwait, which was followed by the expulsion of 400,000 Palestinians by Sheikh Sabbah.
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All of a sudden, there is a claim for a state within Israel by a palenstinian group. The sole response of the HAMAS (because that's what we are talking about here) was terorism. Let's not forget that the land was Sold by the Arabs to the UK and the Jews. Let me educate your views:
HAMAS:
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The Hamas (a word meaning courage and bravery) is a radical Islamic organization which became active in the early stages of the Intifada, operating primarily in the Gaza Strip but also in the West Bank. The Hamas has played a major role in violent fundamentalist subversion and radical terrorist operations against both Israelis and Arabs. In its initial period, the movement was headed primarily by people identified with the Muslim Brotherhood (MB) in the Territories.
In the course of the Intifada, Hamas gained momentum, expanding its activity also in the West Bank, to become the dominant Islamic fundamentalist organization in the Territories. It defined its highest priority as Jihad (Holy War) for the liberation of Palestine and the establishment of an Islamic Palestine "from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River". By its participation in street violence and murder, it boosted its appeal in the eyes of the Palestinians, further enhancing its growth potential and enabling it to play a central role in the Intifada. As a result of its subversive and terrorist activity, Hamas was outlawed in September 1989.
After the Gulf War, Hamas has become the leading perpetrator of terrorist activity throughout the Territories as well as inside Israel. Today it is the second most powerful group, after Fatah, and is sometimes viewed as threatening the hegemony of the secular nationalists. It is currently the strongest opposition group to the peace process and the escalation of its terrorist activity through the murderous suicide bombings against civil targets in Israel in February-March 1996 has slowed down the political process and threatens to stop it altogether.
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Israel:
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Joint Arab-Jewish agreement on Jewish Homeland, January 3, 1918
Feisal Hussein, King of Iraq and Syria agreed to Jewish National Home according to British Mandate (Israel and Jordan) in 1918. King of Iraq from 1921; eldest son of Hussein, sherif of Mecca. He led the Arab intifada against Turkey (1916-1918) and was designated king of Syria. Feisal was at first sympathetic to a Jewish Homeland from which he hoped to receive aid in building his future kingdom. He met Dr. Weizmann in Jordan (1918) and Paris (1919) where they reached an agreement on mutual aid, conditional on the implementation of British promises to the Arabs. Later, owing to his expulsion from Syira by the French (1920) and the influence of other Arab leaders, his attitude later became hostile.
By the mid-19th century, up to 100,000 people lived in Palestine, including a high percentage of Jews, whose forebears had lived there for thousands of years. In 1882, roughly 200,000 Muslims lived in all of Western Palestine.1 By 1918, the situation had not changed much: That was why Hussein ibn-Ali, Sherif of Mecca, and his son, King Faisal of Iraq, both endorsed and extolled the Balfour Declaration 2
Hussein wrote in Mecca's Al Qibla, in 1918, "The resources of the country are still virgin soil and will be developed by the Jewish immigrants. One of the most amazing things until recent times was that the Palestinian used to leave his country, wandering over the high seas in every direction. His native soil could not retain a hold on him.... At the same time, we have seen the Jews from foreign countries streaming to Palestine from Russia, Germany, Austria, Spain, and America. The cause of causes could not escape those who had a gift of deeper insight. They knew that the country was for its original sons [abna'ihi-l-asliyin], for all their differences, a sacred and beloved homeland. The return of these exiles [jaliya] to their homeland will prove materially and spiritually an experimental school for their brethren who are with them in the fields, factories, trades and all things connected to the land." 3
In early 1919, King Faisal, then the only recognized Arab leader in the world, executed a treaty with Chaim Weizmann adopting the understanding of the Balfour Declaration. It outlined relations between Palestine and the Arab state, recognizing the former as a National Home for the Jews, in which they should quickly settle. He wrote, "We Arabs, especially the educated among us, look with the deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement. Our delegation here in Paris is fully acquainted with the proposals submitted yesterday to the Zionist organization to the Peace Conference, and we regard them as moderate and proper." (emphasis added) 4
The 1919 Faisal-Weizmann treaty provided a firm foundation for League of Nations ratification of the Balfour Declaration at the San Remo Conference in 1920. The proposals covered Palestine - from the Mediterranean through the entire Galilee, up to the Litany River, hundreds of miles east of the Jordan River through all of current day Jordan, and into part of the Sinai. The League assigned Palestine Mandate administration to Britain, entrusting it to establish the National Home for the Jews. 5
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I'll give you more links with a brief explanation.
Here you can find the contract signed by Emir Feisal Husseini:
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/%7Esamuel/feisal1.html
Here you can find how populated the area was:
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/%7Epeters/depopulated.html
The history of the Jews:
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/expulsions.html
Now, Imagine having built a propsperous country in a desert area, with only a few nomads living there, and a group of people is suicide bombing because they want Jeruzalem. How would you feel? I'd wonder how the New Yorkers would respond to a situation where terorists claim it to be their land.... Then imagine having a population where every single person living there has lost at least one friend to suicide bombings. Imagine having to live your life in fear of the next terrorist attack. Israel is dealing with this on a daily basis. The Israeli's don't know when the next attack will occur and don't know if they'll live to see the next day.
If that was your life, wouldn't you protect yourself with full force?
Have your own opinion fine, but be sure to base your opinion on facts. And not some cheap article, on which I highly doubt the knowledge of the reporters.
Then again, I am known to hate the media, at least their style of reporting and their lack of background knowledge.
Once again, there are millions of opinions, millions of people who think they know the answer to this conflict.
| Captain Dappet wrote: | | Free Palestine! |
It's like you're cheering for your favorite football team. Why don't you go over and suicide bomb Israel?
I am impressed how well you elaborate.
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Andromeda
Freshman Cadet
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 5
Location: Earth
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| Fri May 21, 2004 1:05 pm |
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I see some of the members here use flags as avatars. Quite a few of those are US flags.
I suppose all US citizens were shaken up by the September 11th terrorist attack, similar responses were also in Spain recently and the threat is spreading throughout Europe as well.
Imagine if what happened on September 11th was a monthly event, if there was hardly anyone among your friends who had not lost friends and family to terrorism, if every time you went to a shopping mall, a night club, a restaurant, on just got on a bus, you had to wonder whether you'd walk out, or be carried out in a body-bag???
It's very easy to judge from a safe distance, I hope none of you will have to be confronted with that, like the majority of the Israelie nation.....
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Fri May 21, 2004 1:08 pm |
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| Andromeda wrote: | I see some of the members here use flags as avatars. Quite a few of those are US flags.
I suppose all US citizens were shaken up by the September 11th terrorist attack, similar responses were also in Spain recently and the threat is spreading throughout Europe as well.
Imagine if what happened on September 11th was a monthly event, if there was hardly anyone among your friends who had not lost friends and family to terrorism, if every time you went to a shopping mall, a night club, a restaurant, on just got on a bus, you had to wonder whether you'd walk out, or be carried out in a body-bag???
It's very easy to judge from a safe distance, I hope none of you will have to be confronted with that, like the majority of the Israelie nation..... |
Very sadly true.
And, OMG, Vortex and I agree!  
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Pah-Wraith
Sheikh
Joined: 30 Nov 2001
Posts: 6012
Location: Londonistan.
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| Fri May 21, 2004 2:13 pm |
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| Vortex wrote: | | Captain Dappet wrote: | | Free Palestine! |
It's like you're cheering for your favorite football team. Why don't you go over and suicide bomb Israel?
I am impressed how well you elaborate. |
Or he could just fight the more respectable fight with Discussion, Pen and Paper 
| Andromeda wrote: | | Imagine if what happened on September 11th was a monthly event, if there was hardly anyone among your friends who had not lost friends and family to terrorism, if every time you went to a shopping mall, a night club, a restaurant, on just got on a bus, you had to wonder whether you'd walk out, or be carried out in a body-bag??? |
Imagine you got booted out of your Home into Egypt like my friend Hassan, not knowing what had happened to your Extended Family, Losing the place that had been the home of your Ancestors for 3 Generations, Watching Israelis burning down your Olive Trees 
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Fri May 21, 2004 5:00 pm |
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Yall should not be so easy to let Israel of the hook, although they are not as bad as the Palestinians, they are not saints either.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Fri May 21, 2004 8:35 pm |
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First off, Israel has the COMPLETE RIGHT TO DEFEND THEMSELVES. However, some of their actions go against peace--many of them, actually.
However, if anyone is REALLY at fault, it's the Palistinians. (Not all of them, but most) THEY'RE the ones who are committing suicide bombings daily and are doing horrendous acts, THEY are...
Of course, Israel has its own share of the acts, just not as common or bad, from what I've seen...
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Andromeda
Freshman Cadet
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 5
Location: Earth
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| Sat May 22, 2004 3:37 am |
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Of course the problem is only the extremists... They do not value and respect their own lives and the lives of their own people and children, how can you expect them to value somebody else's life?
A lot of the palestinians disagree with them but are too scared to say anything, but overall: more Arabs died at the hands of their own and do you hear anyone complaining about that? They only raise a shout when it's someone else doing it...
They complain about discrimination in thier mosques all over the world, but did you ever think about trying to build a church in one of their countries?
Just an example: in 1973 the Sirians collected (actually bought) a few hundreds of children off their parents, hung keys around their necks telling them they were the keys to heaven, and sent them to walk on mine fileds, so then they can get their tanks across.
Some parents are happy to receive a 10,000 check in return for the life of their son/daughter!! Where to they think terrorism would lead them?? As this becomes more evident in many other places in the world now, they are just hated more and more.
The extremists are causing hatred against all Arabs.... It will be a wise step of the majority to make the difference, and not sit quiet and let the few control the many, the Arabs themselves should stand up to the extremists...
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Vortex
Squeak Attack
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 7170
Location: The Edge
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| Sat May 22, 2004 5:18 am |
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| Theresa wrote: | | And, OMG, Vortex and I agree! |
Our opinions never differed that much
| Pah-Wraith wrote: | | Vortex wrote: | | Captain Dappet wrote: | | Free Palestine! |
It's like you're cheering for your favorite football team. Why don't you go over and suicide bomb Israel?
I am impressed how well you elaborate. |
Or he could just fight the more respectable fight with Discussion, Pen and Paper |
With such a treasure of vocabulary, I am sure he'll win any war with pen and paper. But yeah, next time Israel retaliates, I'll be sure to yell: GO ISRAEL!!!! Maybe that would earn your respect better then a longwinded post with factual information, which obviously you didn't read too well.
| Pah-Wraith wrote: | | Andromeda wrote: | | Imagine if what happened on September 11th was a monthly event, if there was hardly anyone among your friends who had not lost friends and family to terrorism, if every time you went to a shopping mall, a night club, a restaurant, on just got on a bus, you had to wonder whether you'd walk out, or be carried out in a body-bag??? |
Imagine you got booted out of your Home into Egypt like my friend Hassan, not knowing what had happened to your Extended Family, Losing the place that had been the home of your Ancestors for 3 Generations, Watching Israelis burning down your Olive Trees |
You are comparing the general with the specific. Such a combination doesn't work. If you want to judge, judge the person (the soldier or the general that ordered the eviction of your friend), not the group (the Israeli's in general). I thought you'd know better, being so against racism yourself.
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Pah-Wraith
Sheikh
Joined: 30 Nov 2001
Posts: 6012
Location: Londonistan.
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| Sat May 22, 2004 6:22 am |
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| Andromeda wrote: | | but did you ever think about trying to build a church in one of their countries? |
The Coptic Christian Community in Egypt is 20%, and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is looked after by an Arab Muslim Family to keep the peace between sects.
2 of the Oldest Churches are kept in Muslim Countries today and are left unharmed due to the Qur'an Surah:2, Verse 256- "There is No Compulsion in Religion"
| Vortex wrote: | | You are comparing the general with the specific. Such a combination doesn't work. If you want to judge, judge the person (the soldier or the general that ordered the eviction of your friend), not the group (the Israeli's in general). I thought you'd know better, being so against racism yourself. |
I could tell you all to do the same, Judge the Individual Palestinians who suicide bombed the Israelis but I know none of you will because having a Bias doesn't work like that (I speak for myself when saying that too )
Me being so against Racism- True, I did believe all that "We are the World" Crap a year ago but my opinions changed after visiting the Middle East and Far East (and I'm hoping due to Maturity).
I like to also Express that many of the Palestinians live in such Poverty that they have no other alternative but to work right away thus ending all chances of a good education. Therefore without the Ability to Write or Read, the Palestinians have no other alternative sometimes but to become Suicide Bombers as they don't have access to an Army or Arms/Tanks like the Israelis with their Public Service and Excellent Weapons.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Sat May 22, 2004 9:49 am |
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Sadly, I still do believe in all that "We are the world" crap. IMO, people are basically good. Even Palestinians and Israeli's. As we saw with Germany, though, it is not that difficult to corrupt basically an entire nation into thinking that they somehow deserve to live more than their neighbors.
I mean, it's not like a Palestinian family is sitting outside of an Isreali's home, waiting to move back in because the Israeli "occupied" the house. There is enough room for everyone, but everyone thinking, "my religion is better", "my race is better", thats what's causing the problems. Who cares if you are Roman Catholic, or Muslim? Does that mean you cannot co-exist? I hardly doubt it.
Israel has been persecuted for hundreds of years. They have physically proven, w/out use of the Bible, that the land they now occupy was initially theirs. Palestine, in Israels absence, took posession. Israel wants it back, neither wants to let go. And I'm sure you could add a lot of other "religious" aspects to the struggle, but I don't know much about the "Qur'an", so I am not prepared to enter into such a discussion. Though I do know it says something about all life being sacred.
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Sat May 22, 2004 10:32 am |
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| Quote: | the Palestinians have no other alternative sometimes but to become Suicide Bombers as they don't have access to an Army or Arms/Tanks like the Israelis with their Public Service and Excellent Weapons.
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Now, before I start, I would like to make it clear, that I honestly dont like either the Palestinians or Israelis for their actions.
Now, you say that the Palestinians are left with no other choice but to use suicide bombings to get there message across. I disagree. They have not chosen this out of "desperation", there are millions of other people in this world that are desperate, but they dont go blow them selves up. As a matter of fact, I can think of a much much better way, that may actually also win them international favor. It is called peaceful protest. Perhaps if they dropped all of there weapons, ended all suicide bombings, and peacefully protested, then they could get there point across. I am thinking they do this somewhere along the lines of how Ghandi did it in India. He one international support, while also, after years, got the British out of India.
If the Palestinian people want to throw stones at Israeli soldiers, then that is their business. However, if they do not at least crack down on the Palestinian terrorists who blow up civilian busses, or resteraunts, then do not complain when America sides with Israel and not Palestinians. And dont tell me that these people cannot be controlled, I have heard that before, and dont buy a word of it. Plus, the Palestinians have been offered there own state before, but then they whine, or attack Israel becuase it just isnt exactly what they had in mind.
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Pah-Wraith
Sheikh
Joined: 30 Nov 2001
Posts: 6012
Location: Londonistan.
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| Sat May 22, 2004 10:41 am |
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Yes the Initial Concept of a peaceful co-existance is a concept that I'm sure all Sane people want, However I've learned to stop posting about this "Ideal" fantasy that Millions of people worldwide share. This is because I know that this concept could never become a reality.
If you're going to go by how the land is rightfully Israeli, I ask you Americans how would you like it if Native Amer-Indians came to your land with the backing of a World Superpower greater than that of your Allies and told you to clear from land that is rightfully belonging to them.
I have no problem with Israelis and Jews living in Israel /Palestine. My only concern is that the Palestinians are forced into Segregation and constantly are threatened with Bull-dozers to their homes, they are threatened by the new concept of knocking down the "Dome of Rock Mosque" so that the Israelis can build their "Temple" over it. Israel was also founded as a Secular State for the Hebrew Race, then how come a large section of the Population is formed up of people who have no Jewish heritage in their Race other than the fact their ancestors converted to the Religion.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Sat May 22, 2004 10:47 am |
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I agree that the Palestinians have very right to be upset. However, they are going about getting what they want completly wrong. Instead of suicide bombings, perhaps they should try the Ghandi approach. And dont tell me that I am being idealistic. Ghandi got nearly all Hindusin India to cooperate. There is no reason that the comparibly small amount of Palestinians could not do the same. Unless they are just not open to that idea and only open to terroistic violence, and if this is true then WHY should the US support them?
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Pah-Wraith
Sheikh
Joined: 30 Nov 2001
Posts: 6012
Location: Londonistan.
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| Sat May 22, 2004 10:52 am |
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| JanewayIsHott wrote: | | Quote: | the Palestinians have no other alternative sometimes but to become Suicide Bombers as they don't have access to an Army or Arms/Tanks like the Israelis with their Public Service and Excellent Weapons.
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I am thinking they do this somewhere along the lines of how Ghandi did it in India. He one international support, while also, after years, got the British out of India.
If the Palestinian people want to throw stones at Israeli soldiers, then that is their business. However, if they do not at least crack down on the Palestinian terrorists who blow up civilian busses, or resteraunts, then do not complain when America sides with Israel and not Palestinians. And dont tell me that these people cannot be controlled, I have heard that before, and dont buy a word of it. Plus, the Palestinians have been offered there own state before, but then they whine, or attack Israel becuase it just isnt exactly what they had in mind. |
1) I don't find Mohandes Gandhi's techniques too successful, he may have got rid of the British but I believe that it's partly thanks to him that much of the Indian Subcontinent is in Seperation and it's also partly due to his efforts that the call for the Muslims and Hindus to seperate themselves came about. Mohandes Gandhi was also a well educated Lawyer, most of the Palestinians are in Working Manual Labour Jobs and do not have a good understanding of Diplomacy or Strategy.
2) Palestinians' main argument is to get their Holy City of Jerusalem, this was not offered by the Israeli Government (due to the fact it is Sacred to the Jews also).
3) The US supports Israel who kill hundreds of Journalists and Aid Workers wearing the Orange Civilian Jackets just for supporting or trying to help Palestinian Families. (Told to me by a Church of Scotland, Protestant Chaplain who is assigned there).
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Sat May 22, 2004 10:57 am |
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| Quote: | | 1) I don't find Mohandes Gandhi's techniques too successful, he may have got rid of the British but I believe that it's partly thanks to him that much of the Indian Subcontinent is in Seperation and it's also partly due to his efforts that the call for the Muslims and Hindus to seperate themselves came about. Mohandes Gandhi was also a well educated Lawyer, most of the Palestinians are in Working Manual Labour Jobs and do not have a good understanding of Diplomacy or Strategy. |
[1] Isnt that what Palestinians want....the Israelis to leave there territory.
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India is a very up and coming country...look at all the big businesses that are moving jobs over there...esp technology industries.
[2] I'm sry about that. Perhaps if they were more peacful, then the Israelis would not have a big problem letting them coexist there with them. However, they need to take what they can get.
[3] Interesting, I was unaware of this.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Sat May 22, 2004 11:06 am |
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Maybe 100 years ago the comparison w/ the Indians would have been fitting, but not now. The Indians co-exist here. None are forced to stay anywhere. I'm part Iroqouis myself. Everyone is given the same opportunities, Indians more so. (I'd not have to pay for college, because I am more than 1/8th Indian, and if some have their way, I won't have to pay taxes or for medical care, either).
We have no Indian suicide bombers, etc... And they are free to retain their heritage.
(And no, I'm not saying what happened over 200 years ago was right, so let's not go there)
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Pah-Wraith
Sheikh
Joined: 30 Nov 2001
Posts: 6012
Location: Londonistan.
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| Sat May 22, 2004 11:07 am |
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| Quote: | [1] Isnt that what Palestinians want....the Israelis to leave there territory.
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India is a very up and coming country...look at all the big businesses that are moving jobs over there...esp technology industries. |
Yeah the Majority of Palestinians do want the Israelis to leave, However I support the group who want their own Area within the city of Jerusalem and other parts of Israel and want to stop the Israeli Troops from giving them such a hard time. The Jews and Palestinians (ALL Arabs) are all Semitic Races, and if they could get past the Religious Problems then Israel would be a place where they could co-exist, in my opinion.
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Pah-Wraith
Sheikh
Joined: 30 Nov 2001
Posts: 6012
Location: Londonistan.
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| Sat May 22, 2004 11:12 am |
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| Theresa wrote: | | Maybe 100 years ago the comparison w/ the Indians would have been fitting, but not now. |
The Jews were small minority in Palestine and co-existantly lived with the locals until the Mass Migration of Jews to the Region less than a century ago.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Sat May 22, 2004 11:18 am |
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Yeah, I recall the name Adolf in there somewhere.
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Pah-Wraith
Sheikh
Joined: 30 Nov 2001
Posts: 6012
Location: Londonistan.
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| Sat May 22, 2004 11:23 am |
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Hmm yeah well it actually started about 6 Years before Hitler's reign with a Large Group of Polish Hasidic Jews migrating to the region and a following of Eastern European Jews after that.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Sat May 22, 2004 11:31 am |
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The US also had a massive influx of Jews. The persecution in Germany didn't start the day Hitler came to power, the seeds of hate were planted long before.
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Vortex
Squeak Attack
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 7170
Location: The Edge
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| Sat May 22, 2004 11:34 am |
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If anyone would have been so gracious to read the links I provided, you would have seen that Israel was wasteland before the jews populated it. With only a few cities in there that were badly neglected. The jews did build up Israel. And with working together they have produced the strongest economy existing on the arabian peninsula. And that without oil. The only oil field they had, they gave back to egypt.
I understand that you may have a build in problem with jews. Only time can change that. However Israel is theirs.
But you are insterting totally different situations of different scenarios to try to back your own defense.
And pah, in reply to your reply to my previous post. I was refering to the HAMAS, in my post. Known to be a terrorist movement. If I'd go as far as judging them individually, I might as well judge all Al-Qa�idah members individually.
However, I never claimed to be a racist fighter, like you have. And I am not comparing specific problems with the general.
I suggest you do some reading on the palestinian/Israeli conflict before you continue with your biased monologue.
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