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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
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Location: Dallas, TX
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 Mon May 17, 2004 4:20 pm Chemical Weapons and Bombs Found in Iraq |
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| Quote: | Bush administration officials told Fox News that mustard gas (search) was also recently discovered.
Two people were treated for "minor exposure" after the sarin incident but no serious injuries were reported. Soldiers transporting the shell for inspection suffered symptoms consistent with low-level chemical exposure, which is what led to the discovery, a U.S. official told Fox News.
"The Iraqi Survey Group confirmed today that a 155-millimeter artillery round containing sarin nerve agent had been found," Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt (search), the chief military spokesman in Iraq, told reporters in Baghdad. "The round had been rigged as an IED (improvised explosive device) which was discovered by a U.S. force convoy."
The round detonated before it would be rendered inoperable, Kimmitt said, which caused a "very small dispersal of agent."
However, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said the results were from a field test, which can be imperfect, and said more analysis was needed. If confirmed, it would be the first finding of a banned weapon upon which the United States based its case for war.
A senior Bush administration official told Fox News that the sarin gas shell is the second chemical weapon discovered recently.
Two weeks ago, U.S. military units discovered mustard gas that was used as part of an IED. Tests conducted by the Iraqi Survey Group (search) � a U.S. organization searching for weapons of mass destruction � and others concluded the mustard gas was "stored improperly," which made the gas "ineffective."
They believe the mustard gas shell may have been one of 550 projectiles for which former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein failed to account when he made his weapons declaration shortly before Operation Iraqi Freedom began last year. Iraq also failed to then account for 450 aerial bombs with mustard gas. That, combined with the shells, totaled about 80 tons of unaccounted for mustard gas.
It also appears some top Pentagon officials were surprised by the sarin news; they thought the matter was classified, administration officials told Fox News.
An official at the U.N. Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC) headquarters in New York said the commission is surprised to hear news of the mustard gas.
"If that's the case, why didn't they announce it earlier?" the official asked.
The UNMOVIC official said the group needs to know more from the Bush administration before it's possible to determine if this is "old or new stuff. It is known that Iraq used sarin during the Iraq-Iran war, however.
Kimmitt said the shell belonged to a class of ordnance that Saddam's government said was destroyed before the 1991 Gulf war (search). Experts believe both the sarin and mustard gas weapons date back to that time.
"It was a weapon that we believe was stocked from the ex-regime time and it had been thought to be an ordinary artillery shell set up to explode like an ordinary IED and basically from the detection of that and when it exploded, it indicated that it actually had some sarin in it," Kimmitt said.
The incident occurred "a couple of days ago," he added. The discovery reportedly occurred near Baghdad International Airport.
Washington officials say the significance of the find is that some chemical shells do still exist in Iraq, and it's thought that fighters there may be upping their attacks on U.S. forces by using such weapons.
The round was an old "binary-type" shell in which two chemicals held in separate sections are mixed after firing to produce sarin, Kimmitt said.
He said he believed that insurgents who rigged the artillery shell as a bomb didn't know it contained the nerve agent, and that the dispersal of the nerve agent from such a rigged device was very limited.
The shell had no markings. It appears the binary sarin agents didn't mix, which is why there weren't serious injuries from the initial explosion, a U.S. official told Fox News.
"Everybody knew Saddam had chemical weapons, the question was, where did they go. Unfortunately, everybody jumped on the offramp and said 'well, because we didn't find them, he didn't have them,'" said Fox News military analyst Lt. Gen. Tom McInerney.
"I doubt if it's the tip of the iceberg but it does confirm what we've known ... that he [Saddam] had weapons of mass destruction that he used on his own people," Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, told Fox News. "This does show that the fear we had is very real. Now whether there is much more of this we don't know, Iraq is the size of the state of California."
But there were more reasons than weapons to get rid of Saddam, he added. "We considered Saddam Hussein a threat not just because of weapons of mass destruction," Grassley said.
Iraqi Scientist: You Will Find More
Gazi George, a former Iraqi nuclear scientist under Saddam's regime, told Fox News he believes many similar weapons stockpiled by the former regime were either buried underground or transported to Syria. He noted that the airport where the device was detonated is on the way to Baghdad from the Syrian border.
George said the finding likely will be the first in a series of discoveries of such weapons.
"Saddam is the type who will not store those materials in a military warehouse. He's gonna store them either underground, or, as I said, lots of them have gone west to Syria and are being brought back with the insurgencies," George told Fox News. "It is difficult to look in areas that are not obvious to the military's eyes.
"I'm sure they're going to find more once time passes," he continued, saying one year is not enough for the survey group or the military to find the weapons.
Saddam, when he was in power, had declared that he did in fact possess mustard-gas filled artilleries but none that included sarin.
"I think what we found today, the sarin in some ways, although it's a nerve gas, it's a lucky situation sarin detonated in the way it did ... it's not as dangerous as the cocktails Saddam used to make, mixing blister" agents with other gases and substances, George said.
Officials: Discovery Is 'Significant'
U.S. officials told Fox News that the shell discovery is a "significant" event.
Artillery shells of the 155-mm size are as big as it gets when it comes to the ordnance lobbed by infantry-based artillery units. The 155 howitzer can launch high capacity shells over several miles; current models used by the United States can fire shells as far as 14 miles. One official told Fox News that a conventional 155-mm shell could hold as much as "two to five" liters of sarin, which is capable of killing thousands of people under the right conditions in highly populated areas.
The Iraqis were very capable of producing such shells in the 1980s but it's not as clear that they continued after the first Gulf War.
In 1995, Japan's Aum Shinrikyo (search) cult unleashed sarin gas in Tokyo's subways, killing 12 people and sickening thousands. In February of this year, Japanese courts convicted the cult's former leader, Shoko Asahara, and sentence him to be executed.
Developed in the mid-1930s by Nazi scientists, a single drop of sarin can cause quick, agonizing choking death. There are no known instances of the Nazis actually using the gas.
Nerve gases work by inhibiting key enzymes in the nervous system, blocking their transmission. Small exposures can be treated with antidotes, if administered quickly.
Antidotes to nerve gases similar to sarin are so effective that top poison gas researchers predict they eventually will cease to be a war threat.
Fox News' Wendell Goler, Steve Harrigan, Ian McCaleb, Liza Porteus, James Rosen and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
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-http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html
*clears throat* The phrase 'We told you so' comes to mind.
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Not the doctor... yet
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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| Mon May 17, 2004 5:58 pm |
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EXACTLY. WE TOLD YOU SO!!!!! What now, Democrats? Huh?
I CAN'T wait to discuss this at school tomorrow!
 WE TOLD YOU SO!!! WE TOLD YOU SO!!!! 
Hah, we WEREN'T wrong!!! YAAAAY! SEEEE!!!!
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Mon May 17, 2004 9:01 pm |
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uhh, Sarin and Mustard gas are a long way off from Bush's claim of WMD's.
Especially considering that all these things are considered to be from '91's Gulf War.
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"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." President Thomas Jefferson
"A man's respect for law and order exists in precise relationship to the size of his paycheck." Adam Clayton Powell Jr.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Mon May 17, 2004 9:46 pm |
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They were not allowed, the UN had banned Iraq from possesing them.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Mon May 17, 2004 9:49 pm |
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They are chemical agents, which Iraq is not supposed to have, and also claimed not to have.
Sarin Nerve Gas: | Quote: | | Breathing a lethal dose of these chemical can kill in 15 minutes; a lethal dose on the skin can kill in only 1-2 minutes!! |
Source
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Jeff Miller
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 22 Nov 2001
Posts: 23947
Location: Mental Ward for the Mentaly Unstable 6th floor, Saint John's 1615 Delaware Longview Washington 98632
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| Mon May 17, 2004 10:49 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | EXACTLY. WE TOLD YOU SO!!!!! What now, Democrats? Huh?
I CAN'T wait to discuss this at school tomorrow!
WE TOLD YOU SO!!! WE TOLD YOU SO!!!!
Hah, we WEREN'T wrong!!! YAAAAY! SEEEE!!!!
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Theres being right and then there is rubbing it in this isn't grade school I suggest the people in here act like adults or don't post because if you just post stuff like what this person just did than it's going to break down...
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Mon May 17, 2004 10:52 pm |
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Tsss, that reaction was normal. Everyone was saying Bush was a liar. He's not. Those who took the abuse for standing by him should now feel ok gloating a bit. I know my boss, (the Democratic Mayor of Bangor), is pissed. Too damn bad.
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Jeff Miller
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 22 Nov 2001
Posts: 23947
Location: Mental Ward for the Mentaly Unstable 6th floor, Saint John's 1615 Delaware Longview Washington 98632
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| Mon May 17, 2004 10:59 pm |
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I'm just currious can anyone prove that the weapons was made in Iraq? It could have been transported from another Terrorist country.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Mon May 17, 2004 11:10 pm |
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Dude, that comment just proved that you have no idea what you are talking about... Or what any of it was about.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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| Mon May 17, 2004 11:18 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | | Dude, that comment just proved that you have no idea what you are talking about... Or what any of it was about. |
I would agree with that...
And for one thing, Saddam SUPPORTED terrorists, and they supported him. And they were in his country, so duh...
And I have EVERY right to rub this in, so to speak...I'm happy that I can now use even more facts to disagree with the Democrats and to use to support the needed war.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Tue May 18, 2004 7:32 am |
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| Jeff Miller wrote: | | I'm just currious can anyone prove that the weapons was made in Iraq? It could have been transported from another Terrorist country. |
This is exactly what I figured would happen, people that dont support the war would say stuff like this......is it really that hard to beleive that we found chemicle weapons in Iraq....if it is, then that's pretty sad.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
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Location: United States of America
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| Tue May 18, 2004 9:36 am |
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I'm going to assume though, that most of you know that they can track where this stuff came from, where it was manufactured, etc...
Not to mention, it is in Iraq. You really think that some terrorist cell, during a war, smuggled in that many chemical weapons? For what purpose? To frame Saddam? To make Bush right? Puh-leeze.
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Tue May 18, 2004 4:12 pm |
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It won't matter what you tell the Democrats.
We found Al-Samoud missiles (banned by the UN res.'s) in the first days of the war, Liberals ignored them.
If Bush was wrong about WMD, then so was Clinton, and so was the UN. Both said that Iraq had WMD, but neither had the brains to take action.
WMD or not, the war was still more than justified.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
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| Tue May 18, 2004 9:33 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | I'm going to assume though, that most of you know that they can track where this stuff came from, where it was manufactured, etc...
Not to mention, it is in Iraq. You really think that some terrorist cell, during a war, smuggled in that many chemical weapons? For what purpose? To frame Saddam? To make Bush right? Puh-leeze. |
I am in UTTER agreement. Good points.
| LightningBoy wrote: | It won't matter what you tell the Democrats.
We found Al-Samoud missiles (banned by the UN res.'s) in the first days of the war, Liberals ignored them.
If Bush was wrong about WMD, then so was Clinton, and so was the UN. Both said that Iraq had WMD, but neither had the brains to take action.
WMD or not, the war was still more than justified. |
You've hit it RIGHT ON THE SPOT!!!! They ALWAYS ignore things that don't support there opinions and are SELECTIVE HEARERS. Plus, yes Clinton, the UN, Bush, FRANCE, GERMANY--they all knew he had them....
And it is most unfortunate that this MAY be seen to have been one of the FEW weapons Saddam destroyed in the early 1990s for one reason or another...It is a pity that a stockpile of sarin was not found YET. We WILL find more, I am sure of it...What say you now, Libs?
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
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Location: United States of America
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| Tue May 18, 2004 9:40 pm |
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Yeah, my favorite bs going around is that the US brought them in themselves, and planted them. Mostly said by non-Americans. Americans who pay attention to the media here know that is garbage. Deal with it. Bush was right. The *beep* is there. But hey, let's again forget the multiple terms of surrender that Saddam broke, for over ten years. The poor misunderstood bastard.
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Kyre
Commodore
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| Tue May 18, 2004 9:41 pm |
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| LightningBoy wrote: | | WMD or not, the war was still more than justified. |
I agree 100%. However, if they are found, WMD's will not (and should not) exonerate Bush entirely. His motives are IMO still very questionable.
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Theresa
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| Tue May 18, 2004 9:49 pm |
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Why? Examples, please.
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Kyre
Commodore
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| Tue May 18, 2004 9:55 pm |
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I can't really give examples. It's just a feeling I have. I find it hard to believe anyone could be so bold as to claim Bush's only goal was to bring democracy to Iraq. It just does not fit, in my head anyway.
Each to their own of course. I'm still glad Saddam was overthrown, and I hope they do find these WMD's, and soon. And I hope they do bring stability to Iraq.
I just think that was not the only thing Bush was/is trying to achieve.
EDIT: Of course, if you want to blame the media for my view of Bush, go ahead. I'm sure being in the UK there are countless things I don't know about him. But from what I have seen/read/heard? Well, see above.
Last edited by Kyre on Tue May 18, 2004 9:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Puck
The Texan
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| Tue May 18, 2004 9:55 pm |
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Oh I can hear it already...."it was for the oil"......or "to get revenge for his dad".......or "he is just stupid".........or "to help get votes bc/ of fighting terrorism"........
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
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| Tue May 18, 2004 10:02 pm |
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| JanewayIsHott wrote: | | Oh I can hear it already...."it was for the oil"......or "to get revenge for his dad".......or "he is just stupid".........or "to help get votes bc/ of fighting terrorism"........ |
I can't BEGIN to tell you how many times I've heard those things.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Kyre
Commodore
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| Tue May 18, 2004 10:03 pm |
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| JanewayIsHott wrote: | | Oh I can hear it already...."it was for the oil"......or "to get revenge for his dad".......or "he is just stupid".........or "to help get votes bc/ of fighting terrorism"........ |
Maybe it was for the oil. Maybe it was for revenge. Maybe he is just stupid. A politician on a weekly (and quite superb) political debate show said (some time ago during the war in Iraq) that Bush had this war up on his calendar as soon as he stepped into the White House.
Maybe he was right. Maybe he was wrong. Just because you support Bush does not mean you are correct in all discussions surrounding him. Just because I have a funny feeling about Bush's motives, does not mean they will end up being true themselves. I certainly wont dismiss your arguments because I don't agree with them entirely. Don't let your blind loyalty run loose about this topic please.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Tue May 18, 2004 10:06 pm |
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Ok, I will be open, just please do NEVER call me blind. I am open to others ideas....but most of these theories are too unbeleivable, and lack facts.
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Republican_Man
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| Tue May 18, 2004 10:10 pm |
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| Kyre wrote: | | JanewayIsHott wrote: | | Oh I can hear it already...."it was for the oil"......or "to get revenge for his dad".......or "he is just stupid".........or "to help get votes bc/ of fighting terrorism"........ |
Maybe it was for the oil. Maybe it was for revenge. Maybe he is just stupid. A politician on a weekly (and quite superb) political debate show said (some time ago during the war in Iraq) that Bush had this war up on his calendar as soon as he stepped into the White House.
Okay, first off, it has been US policy since CLINTON WAS IN OFFICE to remove Saddam from office, but that does NOT mean that Bush specifically PLANNED THE WAR BEFORE HAND. This is pure speculation, but clearly CANNOT BE SAID SO OFTEN. I do not believe it--plus, the "oil," etc. garbage are HORRIBLE accusations.
Maybe he was right. Maybe he was wrong. Just because you support Bush does not mean you are correct in all discussions surrounding him. Just because I have a funny feeling about Bush's motives, does not mean they will end up being true themselves. I certainly wont dismiss your arguments because I don't agree with them entirely. Don't let your blind loyalty run loose about this topic please.
I believe that I am correct, but I may not be. And Bush is one of the MOST RELIGIOUS PRESIDENTS WE'VE EVER HAD, and to send people to war for no good reason goes against his beliefs. Also, with the Oil accustation WHEN HAVE WE TAKEN ANY OIL WHATSOEVER since the occupation began? |
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Republican_Man
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| Tue May 18, 2004 10:11 pm |
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| JanewayIsHott wrote: | | Ok, I will be open, just please do NEVER call me blind. I am open to others ideas....but most of these theories are too unbeleivable, and lack facts. |
And the same applies to me...
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