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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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 Sat May 01, 2004 1:26 pm |
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| Jeremy wrote: | | Jeremy wrote: | Don't jump me because of these opions, or arguements. Some are mine, and some are flaws I see with the arguements put forward.
2. The Middle East (apart from Israel, who is pro-American obviously) takes up quite a lot of the world. Also A lot of people from countries that are pro-War are actually against the attacks on Iraq, actually make that Saddam and his Dictorship. It was the leaders that are pro-war. Here in Britain, probably America's closest ally, most people were actually against the War. In a lot of Europe the actual people are against the War as well. It's not just the media spinning it to make it look like Bush is evil. |
| Republican_Man wrote: | | Okay, you make a decent point...I know that, for instance, the British people were against, and still are against the war, but we have allies/friends in Iraq and Afganhistan, and now PAKISTAN HAS BEEN HELPING US...But of course in the Middle East we aren't liked too much (because we're free) but there is NO WAY that we are HATED AS MUCH AS THE MEDIA SAYS! |
I never said that America is as hated as the media make out, as they will point out the bad stuff thats happening as it's the stuff that gets the viewing figures, but still, America is disliked by quite a lot of countries. I don't know what the media coverage is like in America, as I know from experience it can be quite different from here, and it also seems CNN and Fox cover a lot of different things from what people say here. I would say the reason that America isn't liked much in the Middle East is not because you are "free" but because of a few reasons. One, you are steriotypically Christian. Since quite a few are extremest Muslims they want to attack America in a Jihad. Second, they have been told that America is after their oil, and that that is the only reason America "helps" their countries.
Okay, 1st of: We were discussing the hate thing, and so I assumed that that's what you meant. I appologize for it.
2nd: I DO know that we are disliked in a lot of countries, but that does NOT make it too many, as I was lead to believe that you were saying.
3rd: STERIOTYPICLE CHRISTIAN? And I'm sorry if it seems that I was implying that it was MANY Muslims, I have CONSTANTLY been saying to people that it's only a SELECT group of Muslims...I argue about it, and my teacher wouldn't agree with me when I said that he was wrong--that the Sadir situation in Iraq was NOT an uprising, it was just a GROUP of several hundered terrorists and extremests who don't want freedom in Iraq, as they want power for their own religious form and then may want ot opress people who are not in their religion (i.e. Kurds)
4th: Yes, many HAVE been told that, and that's how radical people like Sadir gain so much power...They lie for it. And just a question to throw out: HAS America EVER taken their oil?
| Jeremy wrote: | | 3. Some of the people reffered to you as Terrorists aren't actually. Sure, it's good that most of the civilians in Iraq are freed from the oppresive rule from Saddam, but now they are also scared to go outside IN SOME PLACES (not all). |
| Republican_Man wrote: | | What does that have to do with them NOT being terrorists? And the other thing is BECAUSE terrorists are on te loose. |
Some of the people in Iraq that are attacking the Americans aren't terrorists as such. There is now a fight for power that Saddam has gone. They are basically fighting so they can have the majority of power and innocents are being killed. Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-war (although I wasn't pro-war either) but I'm saying what is going on at the moment. It's not the terrorists that would attack America mainly fighting in Iraq, but rather people who either: want the Americans out of the country, or their religious leaders have told them to. That is not saying that there isn't terrorists that will attack American and other "Christian" countries, but not all the fighting is terrorists. |
1st: Read my above Reply. That is a good point...However, those who want overall political power may very well BE terrorists, such as Sadir.
2nd: America may have majority Christians and have had no non-Christian President, but it doesn't make us a "Christian" country. ALL people can express their religion freely here.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Pah-Wraith
Sheikh
Joined: 30 Nov 2001
Posts: 6012
Location: Londonistan.
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| Sat May 01, 2004 5:55 pm |
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| JanewayIsHott wrote: | | Pah-Wraith wrote: | | Quote: | | Okay, you make a decent point...I know that, for instance, the British people were against, and still are against the war, but we have allies/friends in Iraq and Afganhistan, and now PAKISTAN HAS BEEN HELPING US...But of course in the Middle East we aren't liked too much (because we're free) |
What are you talking about? With the Exception of Ghaddafi's Regime in Libya (which the west has actually made friends with) and the Arabs living in Israel, people are as free as they want to be in the Middle East. The Majority of Middle Eastern Laws are based on Muslim Laws and Rules in the Qur'an and the majority do not live under stricht oppression of any Leader. Envy you because you are free!?! do you know how pathetic that sounds? Maybe if you actually go and visit some of the countries in the Middle East like I have done you'd start to see things clearly  |
I don't know, but from what I have read, and beleive me, I have read, the whole region appears to be oppressive. Just a few of the main oppressive regimes are Iran, Suadi Arabia, Egypt, Syria is not all that spectacular, Sudan, there was Iraq, and there was Afghanistan........
- Iran is a Persian Nation not a Arab Nation (which I meant to refer to). Egypt is ruled by President Mubarak who has never been suspected of Opression. Saudi Arabia is a stricht country but how else should the Holy Land of the Islamic Faith be dealt with, we can't allow it to become a Liberal Nation. Iraq was ruled by the Baathist Party and now is under coalition regime, you criticise it and you're criticising Bush. Sudan is not classed as a Arab Nation but an African Nation and Neither is Afghanistan in my opinion.
I honestly beleive that many of them do envy America, or it least certain principles that America stands for. They envy the fact that the majority of our population can read and write, they envy the fact that in America, everyone is promised at least be able to pursue life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness however they choose, they envy the fact that we are a society that will dig until it has found every person in the World Trade center rubble, they envy the fact that although we think it may not be so...that we have a very nice house, with an AC, a fridge, running water, working sewers- The Middle East is not the primitive society you westerners believe it to be, it now has all the Basic Facilities in homes that you have including Air Conditioning
They envy that we can speak out against our government- Never heard of Revolutions? These occur in the Middle East very often, Revolutions are prime examples of criticising Government.
they envy the fact that in the 1950's South Korea had the same per capita income as many middle eastern states, but has now managed its devolpement so well that it now dwarfs many middle-eastern stat]- Nah, the majority of people there haven't even studied the Economy of South Korea, where did u get that info from?
they envy the fact that nearly all of our children can go to school and have the chance to do what they want with their lives- Compulsory Education is offered in the Majority of the Middle East however many Families choose to keep their Children in Family Trades
they envy the fact that women in America are equal to men, they envy the fact that we can hold truly free elections every four years......... - Right, you've basically attacked my Religion and gotten away with it, I can't be bothered with this, Ignorance is not Bliss! Learn about Islamic Principles of Women!!!  |
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Sat May 01, 2004 7:47 pm |
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| Quote: | | Saudi Arabia is a stricht country but how else should the Holy Land of the Islamic Faith be dealt with, we can't allow it to become a Liberal Nation |
It should be dealt with, and should not be so oppresive. What about those whose holy land it is not.....they are still being oppressed.
| Quote: | The Middle East is not the primitive society you westerners believe it to be, it now has all the Basic Facilities in homes that you have including Air Conditioning
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Well alot of it is not up to par with how it should be. They are still lagging behind.
| Quote: | Never heard of Revolutions? These occur in the Middle East very often, Revolutions are prime examples of criticising Government.
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Well now that revolutions have taken place, it still appears in some places people do not have all necessary rights.
| Quote: | Nah, the majority of people there haven't even studied the Economy of South Korea, where did u get that info from?
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I got it from a book titled "Longitudes and Attitudes"
| Quote: | | Right, you've basically attacked my Religion and gotten away with it, I can't be bothered with this, Ignorance is not Bliss! Learn about Islamic Principles of Women |
What about those that are not Islam! What about those who do not want to practice your beleifs!
| Quote: | Compulsory Education is offered in the Majority of the Middle East however many Families choose to keep their Children in Family Trades
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Religion and religious biased are also taught, this is not the way to do it.
| Quote: | | Iran is a Persian Nation not a Arab Nation (which I meant to refer to). Egypt is ruled by President Mubarak who has never been suspected of Opression. Saudi Arabia is a stricht country but how else should the Holy Land of the Islamic Faith be dealt with, we can't allow it to become a Liberal Nation. Iraq was ruled by the Baathist Party and now is under coalition regime, you criticise it and you're criticising Bush. Sudan is not classed as a Arab Nation but an African Nation and Neither is Afghanistan in my opinion |
I thought we were talking about the middle east......and excuse me but your map of the middle east is slightly different than mine.
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Monkey
Captain
Joined: 05 Feb 2004
Posts: 833
Location: On a quest you probably wouldn't believe.
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| Sat May 01, 2004 7:47 pm |
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| Quote: | | 2nd: America may have majority Christians and have had no non-Christian President, but it doesn't make us a "Christian" country. ALL people can express their religion freely here. |
uhh... yeah most americans do not claim to be christian
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Sat May 01, 2004 7:54 pm |
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| Monkey wrote: | | Quote: | | 2nd: America may have majority Christians and have had no non-Christian President, but it doesn't make us a "Christian" country. ALL people can express their religion freely here. |
uhh... yeah most americans do not claim to be christian |
Where did you get this info?
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Pah-Wraith
Sheikh
Joined: 30 Nov 2001
Posts: 6012
Location: Londonistan.
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| Sun May 02, 2004 3:56 am |
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| JanewayIsHott wrote: | | Quote: | | Saudi Arabia is a stricht country but how else should the Holy Land of the Islamic Faith be dealt with, we can't allow it to become a Liberal Nation |
It should be dealt with, and should not be so oppresive. What about those whose holy land it is not.....they are still being oppressed- Why the Hell would they want to live in Saudi Arabia then? Unless they are Ex-Patriots who often have rules bent for them (I know from experience with my Dad). No non-Muslims are allowed to enter the Holy Cities so it doesn't make a difference about them.
| Quote: | The Middle East is not the primitive society you westerners believe it to be, it now has all the Basic Facilities in homes that you have including Air Conditioning
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Well alot of it is not up to par with how it should be. They are still lagging behind- Again this is you're opinion, How do you know People in the Middle East aren't happy with what they have?
| Quote: | Never heard of Revolutions? These occur in the Middle East very often, Revolutions are prime examples of criticising Government.
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Well now that revolutions have taken place, it still appears in some places people do not have all necessary rights.- If the Rights subscribed to Men & Women in the Qur'an do not seem fitting for you, then ignore them, there is no way that Countries like Saudi Arabia where the Holy City of Makkah resides will ever change their Laws to fit Westerner's demands.
| Quote: | Nah, the majority of people there haven't even studied the Economy of South Korea, where did u get that info from?
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I got it from a book titled "Longitudes and Attitudes"- That Book must speak for a Very Small Minority, out of all the Arabs I'm friends with none have even mentioned the Economy of any Asian Countries, or any countries for that matter other than Israel.
| Quote: | | Right, you've basically attacked my Religion and gotten away with it, I can't be bothered with this, Ignorance is not Bliss! Learn about Islamic Principles of Women |
What about those that are not Islam! What about those who do not want to practice your beleifs!- Then it's advised they live in other Countries or be willing to abide by the Laws of the Hadith which pretty much all Arab countries base their Laws on (seeing as they are predominately Muslim Countries). Before Islamic Rules for Women were introduced, Women were being constantly raped and men having affairs were on an all time high
| Quote: | Compulsory Education is offered in the Majority of the Middle East however many Families choose to keep their Children in Family Trades
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Religion and religious biased are also taught, this is not the way to do it. Yeah you're point being? My Coptic Christian Friends just go to seperate schools.
| Quote: | | Iran is a Persian Nation not a Arab Nation (which I meant to refer to). Egypt is ruled by President Mubarak who has never been suspected of Opression. Saudi Arabia is a stricht country but how else should the Holy Land of the Islamic Faith be dealt with, we can't allow it to become a Liberal Nation. Iraq was ruled by the Baathist Party and now is under coalition regime, you criticise it and you're criticising Bush. Sudan is not classed as a Arab Nation but an African Nation and Neither is Afghanistan in my opinion |
I thought we were talking about the middle east......and excuse me but your map of the middle east is slightly different than mine. |
I've already clarified, I don't know enough about non-Arab Countries in the Middle East so I won't refer to them.
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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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| Sun May 02, 2004 10:14 am |
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| Monkey wrote: | | Quote: | | 2nd: America may have majority Christians and have had no non-Christian President, but it doesn't make us a "Christian" country. ALL people can express their religion freely here. |
uhh... yeah most americans do not claim to be christian |
Yes, but there is a steriotypical view that it is.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Sun May 02, 2004 10:31 am |
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| Quote: | | Why the Hell would they want to live in Saudi Arabia then? Unless they are Ex-Patriots who often have rules bent for them (I know from experience with my Dad). No non-Muslims are allowed to enter the Holy Cities so it doesn't make a difference about them. |
I see taking away peoples freedom if only non-Muslims are allowed to enter the holy city, that is pure discrimination and it is disgusting.
| Quote: | The Middle East is not the primitive society you westerners believe it to be, it now has all the Basic Facilities in homes that you have including Air Conditioning
Again this is you're opinion, How do you know People in the Middle East aren't happy with what they have? |
Well if I knew there was better stuff elsewhere, and I wasn't getting it because my society is so medievil, then yes, I would be unhappy....of course, maybe they are.
| Quote: | Never heard of Revolutions? These occur in the Middle East very often, Revolutions are prime examples of criticising Government.
Well now that revolutions have taken place, it still appears in some places people do not have all necessary rights.- If the Rights subscribed to Men & Women in the Qur'an do not seem fitting for you, then ignore them, there is no way that Countries like Saudi Arabia where the Holy City of Makkah resides will ever change their Laws to fit Westerner's demands. |
Well they should because it is absolutly insane that a country where not all of the people may be Islamic, or want to practice the Islamic faith are forced to follow rules based on Islam. That right there is oppression.
| Quote: | Nah, the majority of people there haven't even studied the Economy of South Korea, where did u get that info from?
I got it from a book titled "Longitudes and Attitudes"- That Book must speak for a Very Small Minority, out of all the Arabs I'm friends with none have even mentioned the Economy of any Asian Countries, or any countries for that matter other than Israel. |
Hmm, suprise suprise, all they do is complain about Israel I am guessing. but we are not talking about whether your friends talk about it or not, we are talking facts, and here is the refresher:
IN THE 1950's SOUTH KOREA HAD THE SAME PER CAPITA INCOME AS MANY MIDDLE EASTERN STATES, BUT HAS NOW MANAGED ITS DEVELOPEMENT SO WELL THAT IT NOW DWARFS MANY MIDDLE-EASTERN STATES.
| Quote: | Right, you've basically attacked my Religion and gotten away with it, I can't be bothered with this, Ignorance is not Bliss! Learn about Islamic Principles of Women
What about those that are not Islam! What about those who do not want to practice your beleifs!- Then it's advised they live in other Countries or be willing to abide by the Laws of the Hadith which pretty much all Arab countries base their Laws on (seeing as they are predominately Muslim Countries). Before Islamic Rules for Women were introduced, Women were being constantly raped and men having affairs were on an all time high |
There are other ways to inforce laws and protect against rape and affairs other than taking away all of womens rights! And WHY should people have to move to different countries or not be allowed to live in others because the countries practice what they see as an oppresive Islamic based laws. THIS LAND DOESN'T JUST BELONG TO MUSLIMS!
| Quote: | Compulsory Education is offered in the Majority of the Middle East however many Families choose to keep their Children in Family Trades
Religion and religious biased are also taught, this is not the way to do it. Yeah you're point being? My Coptic Christian Friends just go to seperate schools. |
Ummmm, what about your Muslim friends, in there schools, THEY ARE BEING TAUGHT BIASLY, let them formulate their own opinions!
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Monkey
Captain
Joined: 05 Feb 2004
Posts: 833
Location: On a quest you probably wouldn't believe.
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| Sun May 02, 2004 10:54 am |
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| Quote: | Monkey wrote:
Quote:
2nd: America may have majority Christians and have had no non-Christian President, but it doesn't make us a "Christian" country. ALL people can express their religion freely here.
uhh... yeah most americans do not claim to be christian
Where did you get this info? |
Reader's Digest
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Pah-Wraith
Sheikh
Joined: 30 Nov 2001
Posts: 6012
Location: Londonistan.
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| Sun May 02, 2004 10:55 am |
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DEBATE RESOLVED ON MSN, NO MORE INPUT NEEDED THANKS.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Sun May 02, 2004 11:20 am |
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This is just a question, pure and simple, no judgement to be inferred at all.
If a woman, who is not of the Islam faith, is in Saudi Arabia, why must she always be accompanied by a male, sit in the back seat, and not be allowed to drive? And even must wear a veil while in public.
I understand that this is one of the tenets of Islam, and that they feel the women are being honored. Ok, that's fine. If the woman is Islamic. But if a woman decideds to renounce her faith, something which from my perception would be nearly impossible for her to do, she's not really free then, either. And that's saying she even got away to be able to do such.
And if I see anymore generilizations, broad statements, and trashing of each others religion, nationality, country, whatever, I will have someone's ass, understood? Argue all you want. But think before you "speak", and take the two seconds to look things up. I mean, wow, we are on the World Wide Web,
Theresa
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Pah-Wraith
Sheikh
Joined: 30 Nov 2001
Posts: 6012
Location: Londonistan.
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| Sun May 02, 2004 11:33 am |
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| Theresa wrote: | This is just a question, pure and simple, no judgement to be inferred at all.
If a woman, who is not of the Islam faith, is in Saudi Arabia, why must she always be accompanied by a male, sit in the back seat, and not be allowed to drive? And even must wear a veil while in public.
I understand that this is one of the tenets of Islam, and that they feel the women are being honored. Ok, that's fine. If the woman is Islamic. But if a woman decideds to renounce her faith, something which from my perception would be nearly impossible for her to do, she's not really free then, either. And that's saying she even got away to be able to do such. |
Hmm thats a good question, This is my interpretation and since I am not an Al-Azhar Scholar or a Saudi Government official it is just my opinion and not factual.
I'd think this is because Saudi Arabia is a country that's non-Muslim Population makes up less than 100% and therefore they do not really take into consideration Non-Muslims (Kuffrs). Saudi Arabia is also viewed by Muslims worldwide as a prime example of a Muslim State and many belief it will act as the State of Pan-Islam (The Belief that ALL Muslims will live in one state under a Caliph) and therefore has to keep it's stricht Laws as the Muslim Holy Land. As for Leaving the Islamic Faith, it is frowned upon by many Muslims (as you can Imagine) but the Prophet Muhammad demanded there should be no compulsory in Religion and that Women and Men could make their own choices, So anyone who is Truly Muslim would allow Women to make their own choice over religion. Well thats the only way I can explain it if that makes any sense. 
Last edited by Pah-Wraith on Sun May 02, 2004 11:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Sun May 02, 2004 11:36 am |
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I understand. (And it makes sense, but it also doesn't, you know? Not the way you worded your explanation, the reasoning itself.)
Thank you
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Los
Commodore
Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 1336
Location: Oklahoma fa sho!
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| Sun May 02, 2004 7:56 pm |
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He voiced his opinion. He shouldn't be punished for that.
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Jeremy
J's Guy
Joined: 03 Oct 2002
Posts: 7823
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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| Mon May 03, 2004 3:27 am |
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He wasn't punished though... T was making a general comment to everyone as it was becoming close to being racist, or too steriotypical etc.
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