| Should the words "UNDER GOD" be stripped from the Pledge of Allegance? |
| Yes |
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46% |
[ 15 ] |
| No |
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31% |
[ 10 ] |
| No; to do so would be to give into the Secularists |
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21% |
[ 7 ] |
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| Total Votes : 32 |
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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 Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:25 pm "One Nation UNDER GOD" ? |
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The United States of America, 1954: Under God was inserted in the United States' Pledge of Allegance, and thus it became:
I pledge allegance,
to the Flag,
of the United States of America.
And to the Republic, for which it stands,
One Nation, Under God,
Indivisible,
and with Liberty and Justice for all.
The words "Under God" are now under scrutiny and have made it all the way to the US Supreme Court thanks to one man. This man believes that because of those words the pledge should not be said in schools.
Now, NO CHILD is forced into saying the pledge, and they COULD leave those lines out when they say it, if they wanted to.
2 Interesting things about this case:
=The child's mother has custody (they never got married)
=The child (1st Grader) is CHRISTAIN and yet the dad is athiest.
Now, I ask you, "Should we get those words out of the US Pledge?
Please explain.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:30 pm |
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Now, here's what I think:
The United States should keep the words "Under God" in the Pledge.
First of all, the term "God" applies to all religions. Even athiests could say that--mother nature could be their "God," of sorts. Some athiests believe in that.
Plus if America were to give into that, then we would be giving in to the Secularist movement. The United States was founded on Jeudeo- (I don't think I spelled that right) Christain beliefs, hence...
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:32 pm |
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No, I don't think it should be taken out. The US was founded on a belief in God, and defying that wuld be taking away what is the basis of the system...
Should kids be forced to say it? No, their beliefs, that's fine...
But I say leave it be...besides, really, what harm does it do? Very little..I think it's taken a little harsher than it should be by people who seem to be looking for any reason for a fight...
No offense intended to anyone. 
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Jeff Miller
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 22 Nov 2001
Posts: 23947
Location: Mental Ward for the Mentaly Unstable 6th floor, Saint John's 1615 Delaware Longview Washington 98632
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| Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:58 pm |
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Hell yea I think it sould be taken out Im athiest if I realized when I was little that I could have sued my school for making me say that I should have state and religon should be seperate.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sun Mar 28, 2004 7:01 pm |
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But how separate? How far does it go? Must we fall to Secularism?
In America, we were FOUNDED on Judeo-Christian beliefs...
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Sun Mar 28, 2004 8:28 pm |
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AHhhhhhhh I meant to vote no but I voted yes.......sheesh.
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Kate Janeway
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Mar 2002
Posts: 4120
Location: Texas
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| Sun Mar 28, 2004 8:38 pm |
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You could leave it in the pledge, but like Jeff said, the younger kids are made to say the whole pledge. Some people might take that as forcing the religion on the kids.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Sun Mar 28, 2004 9:03 pm |
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I thought that schools couldn't actually force you to say the pledge...my highschool doesnt
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sun Mar 28, 2004 10:10 pm |
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You are NOT forced to say the pledge in schools.
Since when does that happen?
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Kate Janeway
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Mar 2002
Posts: 4120
Location: Texas
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| Sun Mar 28, 2004 10:51 pm |
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I was referring to the younger kids, like kindergarteners, who don't know anything about whether they can or can't do stuff in school; they're very impressionable, and if the teacher tells them to say the whole pledge, they will, because if they don't, they'll get in trouble.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Sun Mar 28, 2004 11:08 pm |
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Well, then, maybe that will make the parents pay attention to what's going on at school. If I have to "practice" putting a condom on a banana for heavens sake, they can say the pledge. No school that I know of can make you say it, at any age. But yes, the young kids are impressionable, but that also leads back to the family life.
And Jeff, to what end would you sue the school? You'd be awarded no money, the school would be in no trouble, and you'd merely sit in your seat while the pledge is being said.
"Under God" To which God does that refer? I'd say it's pretty much open to interpretation. And it's been proven factually, that to whatever you spend the majority of your time, something that you do to such an extent that you neglect other things, is also considered your god. So everyone has a god, whether they choose to call it that or not. New term for you: splitting hairs.
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And some have to live with our scars
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Captain Dappet
Forum Revolutionist
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 16756
Location: On my supersonic rocket ship.
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| Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:23 am |
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| Quote: |
god [ god ]
noun (plural gods)
1. supernatural being: one of a group of supernatural male beings in some religions, each of which is worshiped as the personification or controller of some aspect of the universe
Thor, the Norse god of thunder
2. figure or image: a representation of a god, used as an object of worship
the little bronze god standing in a niche above the altar
3. something that dominates somebody�s life: something that is so important that it takes over somebody�s life ( informal )
worshiping the false god of fame
4. somebody admired and imitated: a man who is widely admired or imitated ( informal )
He was one of the rock music gods of the early Seventies.
plural noun gods
fate: the entire group of supernatural beings viewed as deciding human fate
[Old English. Ultimately from an Indo-European word, meaning �that which is invoked,� which is also the ancestor of German Gott �god.�]
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How "God" is defined. However, I disagree with #4, someone who is admired can hardly be considered a God. If I was to be admired by someone, I sure wouldn't want to be viewed at as a God.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:37 pm |
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3 and 4 support what I said. Something that takes over your life to the exclusion of others...
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Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Sam Kenobi
Not a Duke
Joined: 13 Jun 2003
Posts: 10373
Location: The 'Verse
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| Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:42 pm |
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| Kate Janeway wrote: | | I was referring to the younger kids, like kindergarteners, who don't know anything about whether they can or can't do stuff in school; they're very impressionable, and if the teacher tells them to say the whole pledge, they will, because if they don't, they'll get in trouble. |
The problem isn't that the schools are "forcing" the kids to say that the country is "under God", the problem is that they're being "forced" to pledge their allegance to the flag before they even know what they're doing. Those kind of pledges have stronger repercussions than they should. You should only pledge your allegance if you really would like to pledge your allegance to the flag.
But I think the God part should stay. The country was founded upon religious ideals, the founding fathers did in fact create the country under God. If you don't want to say it, then don't, but it's in there for a reason, if not for a patriotic or spiritual reason, than for a historical reason.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:22 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | Well, then, maybe that will make the parents pay attention to what's going on at school. If I have to "practice" putting a condom on a banana for heavens sake, they can say the pledge. No school that I know of can make you say it, at any age. But yes, the young kids are impressionable, but that also leads back to the family life.
And Jeff, to what end would you sue the school? You'd be awarded no money, the school would be in no trouble, and you'd merely sit in your seat while the pledge is being said.
"Under God" To which God does that refer? I'd say it's pretty much open to interpretation. And it's been proven factually, that to whatever you spend the majority of your time, something that you do to such an extent that you neglect other things, is also considered your god. So everyone has a god, whether they choose to call it that or not. New term for you: splitting hairs. |
That final point is a point that I've been trying to make and have made for a long time. How CAN you defince God...The Dictionary is NOT God, you know...God could pertain to Islam, Christianity, or Juediesm, and a whole other spectrum of religions...
However, on your second point there, I have to disagree with you. The suing of many schools has been successful, unfortunately, considering that there is little defense against the Secularist Movement.
The first point has a good analogy and I agree with it. My brother and I went to the same school in Kindergarten and my sister went to another one across the country, and neither of us have EVER been FORCED into saying the pledge...
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Sam Kenobi
Not a Duke
Joined: 13 Jun 2003
Posts: 10373
Location: The 'Verse
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| Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:27 pm |
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yeah, I don't know about being forced, but as a kid you just kind of view it as a morning ritual and say it anyway. you know, because then we didn't really know what we were doing. we didn't realize that what we were saying had a lot bigger meaning than a morning ritual
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Mon Mar 29, 2004 6:09 pm |
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I am inclined to agree with that, Paris.
Yes, it was seemed as a "morning ritual," and if the kids don't understand the words "Under God" it is the PARENT'S job to inform them and tell them not to say it.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Kate Janeway
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Mar 2002
Posts: 4120
Location: Texas
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| Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:29 pm |
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Okay, now this is splitting hairs. I was merely pointing out the fact that younger kids are very impressionable, to the point that their saying the pledge - only because they're told to, with no idea whatsoever what they are saying - could be viewed as forcing them. Now I'm sort of sorry I even said that - the horse is dead already, so is it okay to stop beating it now?
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DemonClassY
Commodore
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 1986
Location: Pittsburgh, PA, U.S.A
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| Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:33 pm |
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I think that that is so stupid. Why don't they just leave *beep* alone. And I am sorry for the language but that just makes me so mad. People are just trying to do this because they have nothing better to do. and if you are Athiest, I'm sorry but just stay out of it!
And if there are kids in school feeling obligated to stand up and say the pledge, then they can shut the hell up as well. You don't have to stand up, a teacher can get into serious trouble for making you stand up to say the pledge of alliegence. So if you have a problem saying it because it has the word "God" in it, then don't say it. Yes, suprise, it's that simple.  Some people just need to stop frigin bitching and find something better to do with their time!!!!!
Last edited by DemonClassY on Mon Mar 29, 2004 9:16 pm; edited 2 times in total
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ILoveHarry
Admiral
Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 7909
Location: Houston
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| Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:39 pm |
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I won't state my religious beliefs b/c they are irrelevant. If we expect to have true separation of church and state of course it should be removed, other wise it's not separation. However, who really cares? It's our pledge. It's always been our pledge. Are we going to go change the Constitution or the Declaration of Independance just b/c people feel threatened by words?
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Kate Janeway
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Mar 2002
Posts: 4120
Location: Texas
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| Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:48 pm |
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^Actually, the words "under God" were not originally in the pledge. It was added later on.
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ILoveHarry
Admiral
Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 7909
Location: Houston
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| Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:49 pm |
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^Seriously? I never knew that, how interesting. Do you have details? Such as when and why it was changed?
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Mon Mar 29, 2004 9:05 pm |
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The Knights of Columbus campaigned for it I've heard, but I've also heard it was added to help fight communism, for some reason or another (it could be both )
But anywho, it was in 1954 that the pledge was changed to include "Under God." Passed by congress and signed by President Eisenhower.
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-Wuthering Heights
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Kate Janeway
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Mar 2002
Posts: 4120
Location: Texas
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| Mon Mar 29, 2004 9:08 pm |
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The original pledge was written in August of 1892 by Francis Bellamy which read as follows: I pledge allegiance to my flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
In 1923-24, the National Flag Conference, under the leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed 'my flag' to 'the flag of the United States of America,' which Bellamy protested. It was again changed on June 14, 1954 to include the words "under God" by Congress, after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus. As President Eisenhower approved the change, he said, "In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war."
If you want to check the information, it's here: http://www.flagday.org/Pages/StoryofPledge.html
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ILoveHarry
Admiral
Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 7909
Location: Houston
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| Mon Mar 29, 2004 9:08 pm |
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Well, what do you know?!?! I was never taught that in school.
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