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Red Quacker
Captain
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 714
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 Tue Feb 11, 2003 5:38 pm Garak: Why do people think he's gay? |
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Even the actor, Andrew Robinson, has been quoted as saying he played Garak gay. The question is, why? O'Brien had fewer romantic possibilities than Garak, so why would Garak be singled out? Somehow I doubt a James Bond of the Cardassians would be gay; the tailor thing was just a front.
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Lindley
Vice Admiral
Joined: 18 Sep 2001
Posts: 6194
Location: Fairfax, VA
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| Tue Feb 11, 2003 7:51 pm |
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I've never heard that. And Robinson could have meant the more traditional meaning of the word. In "A Stitch In Time" (which Robinson wrote, no coauthor), a large part of the reason why Garak was exiled was due to a forbidden affair.
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thegame
Captain
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 752
Location: Buffalo, New York
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| Wed Feb 12, 2003 2:42 pm |
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And he was in Love at one point with Zial.
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Red Quacker
Captain
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 714
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| Wed Feb 12, 2003 5:13 pm |
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Well go to any mainstream Trek board and ask the question and you'll find some responses of note.
But who ever heard of a gay Cardassian anyway? Wouldn't that be like an effeminate Nazi?
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Pah-Wraith
Sheikh
Joined: 30 Nov 2001
Posts: 6012
Location: Londonistan.
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| Wed Feb 12, 2003 5:27 pm |
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I found Garaks character to be really down to earth, he didn't seem gay to me not that I payed close attention to his sexuality or anything! The Mirror Garak on the otherhand I think was 100% Gay
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Red Quacker
Captain
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 714
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| Wed Feb 12, 2003 5:49 pm |
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LOL, Mirror Kira and Mirror Ezri seemed a bit on the lesbian side, too. Especially when they started kissing each other.
Why do the "evil" versions of everyone seem gay? Is this a part of our psyche, the idea of homosexuality being evil?
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thegame
Captain
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 752
Location: Buffalo, New York
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| Wed Feb 12, 2003 10:15 pm |
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The other Worf wasn't gay, or the other Tuvok, or Jadzeea, or Sisko, or Kirk, or Spock, or Sulu, or Uhura, or most of them.
Kira being a bi-sexual was only an extension of her mirror character. The Intendant was manipulative, decitful, glutonous, and indulgent in all things. Her sexual preference, or lack thereof, was a good way to accentuate the characterization. And it worked, the mirror Kira was fascinating.
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thegame
Captain
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 752
Location: Buffalo, New York
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| Wed Feb 12, 2003 10:19 pm |
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Quack...
Please don't talk about Cardassians and Nazi's like they are similar. The Founders are the ones you should look at for such a comparisson. The Cardassian culture was always written to be based on social and filal piety and honor. The mislead direction of Dukat, although in some aspects similar to Hitler, did not come to change the face of Cardassia for the worse as Hitler did in Germany, it instead reawakened the sense of Cardassian history, which great men like Garak and Damar harnessed to overthrow the oppressive Dominion. No such occurrence took place in Nazi Germany.
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Captain Michael Pike
Captain
Joined: 14 Jul 2001
Posts: 597
Location: PA
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| Thu Feb 13, 2003 1:10 am |
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| thegame wrote: |
Kira being a bi-sexual was only an extension of her mirror character. The Intendant was manipulative, decitful, glutonous, and indulgent in all things. Her sexual preference, or lack thereof, was a good way to accentuate the characterization. And it worked, the mirror Kira was fascinating. |
The same sexual ambiguity was evident in Garak. I think there were points where Garak had used his ambiguous sexual nature to gain a better grip on the coat tails of certain influential people on the station, for example Doctor Bashir. Julian Bashir was often seen in the first season episodes chasing after an object of lust (namely Jadzia Dax) and to have Garak there to share his emotional turbulence with made his transition to DS9 easier. In that instance, it behooved Garak to turn to the more effeminate characteristics of his personality, listening, compassion, and interest (not feigned) are extremely rare in most traditionally considered "straight men". By adopting this "persona", Garak found an in on the station among the senior staff...who better to glean information from? And Bashir was not stingy with his friendship or his information.
That's not to say Garak was gay...not at all as a matter of fact. Simply put, Garak is the spy, the information gatherer, and it only shows that for all his protestations to the contrary, Garak was trained as a spy and would always fall back on that training. He learned, in the Obsidian Order, that a good agent will use anything he can to his/her advantage. That includes his sexuality.
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Red Quacker
Captain
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 714
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| Thu Feb 13, 2003 4:41 pm |
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| thegame wrote: | Quack...
The Cardassian culture was always written to be based on social and filal piety and honor. The mislead direction of Dukat, although in some aspects similar to Hitler, did not come to change the face of Cardassia for the worse as Hitler did in Germany, it instead reawakened the sense of Cardassian history, which great men like Garak and Damar harnessed to overthrow the oppressive Dominion. |
That all sounds like Germany, except the coup against Hitler failed.
But Cardassians were based on Germans. 
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Captain Michael Pike
Captain
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Posts: 597
Location: PA
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| Thu Feb 13, 2003 11:11 pm |
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| thegame wrote: | Quack...
Please don't talk about Cardassians and Nazi's like they are similar. The Founders are the ones you should look at for such a comparisson. The Cardassian culture was always written to be based on social and filal piety and honor. The mislead direction of Dukat, although in some aspects similar to Hitler, did not come to change the face of Cardassia for the worse as Hitler did in Germany, it instead reawakened the sense of Cardassian history, which great men like Garak and Damar harnessed to overthrow the oppressive Dominion. No such occurrence took place in Nazi Germany. |
Cardassians. Technlogically advanced humanoid civilization. In the past Cardassians were a peaceful and spiritual people. But because their planet was poor in resources, starvation and disease were rampant, and people died by the millions. With the rise of the military to power, new territory and technologies were acquired, at the cost of millions of lives sacrificed to the war effort.
The Cardassians developed a secret organization known as the Obsidian Order. The ruthless and frighteningly efficient Cardassian internal security. The Obsidian Order maintained an elaborate network that kept virtually every citizen under surveillance.
The Cardassians annexed the panet Bajor in 2328, and over the next several decades they systematically stripped the planet of resources and forced most Bajorans to resettle on other worlds. The Cardassians developed "labor camps" in which Bajorans were forced to complete manual labor at any cost, including their deaths. Cardassians often murdered large groups of Bajorans in an effort to "educate" them against resisting the Cardassian Occupation.
Later Cardassia was led to a "new found glory" by a madman who understood his people and how to manipulate them.
Pre-Nazi German saw the collapse of their social and economic structures. Germany began a distinct and noticeable downward spiral due to the effects of mismanagement in the Government and the loss of WWI. The monetary system collapsed under the weight of the lost war and bloated armed forces they needed to maintain. People began to die of starvation and disease.
The Gestapo was the Nazi Secret Police controlled by Reinhard Heydrich, specifically suited to "recognise all_germs of destruction" to Nazi Germany; in other words, to identify all Jews, Socialists and homosexuals and send them to concentration camps.
Hitler believed that the Jews were responsible for Germany's defeat in the First World War. As soon as he came to power he began to attack them:
From 1933 Jews were subjected to increasing persecution in Nazi Germany. At first they were banned from some professions - medicine, dentistry, the civil service, for example. they also found that their shops were boycotted from time to time.
then in 1935 the Nuremberg Laws were announced - these made Jews second class citizens and prevented them from marrying non-Jews. they also lost the right to vote and had to use separate seats in buses and parks which were painted yellow.
In 1938, Jewish synagogues, shops and houses all over Germany were attacked. This was known as Crystal Night. It took place after a Nazi was murdered by a Jew in Paris. 30,000 Jews were arrested, although most were released soon after. A fine of 1,000,000,000 marks was levied on Jews in Germany for the repair of the damage. From early 1939 Jews were banned from owning businesses and were forced to wear a yellow Star of David on their clothing.
the Nazis forced Jews out of Germany; many went to Britain, France and the USA. Once war broke out this became more difficult. Jews could not leave and were forced into Ghettos and then into Concentration Camps. Ghettos were areas of cities that were surrounded by fences. Jews were allowed out in the morning to work, but had to return before a curfew in the evening.
In 1941 Hitler invaded the USSR, where there were millions more Jews. Death Squads, "Einsatzgruppen", were set up to shoot Jews at will.
Finally the Nazis decided in January 1942 to set up Extermination Camps. This became known as the Final Solution. they intended to murder all of the Jews in Europe:
Altogether at least 6,000,000 Jews were killed by the Nazis, along with more than 1,000,000 gypsies and 4,000,000 Soviet prisoners of war. Many Germans were unaware of what was happening. Extermination Camps like Auschwitz and Treblinka were built outside of Germany. the true story was only discovered when the Allies advanced across Europe in 1945.
Many prisoners of war and Jews were worked to death in Concentration Camps, such as Belsen and Dachau in Germany. these were certainly known about and many German businesses used Jewish workers in their factories.
the evidence given at the trials of the camp commandants was horrific. Rudolf Hoess, the commandant of Auschwitz, described how he tried to find the most efficient poison gas to kill the inmates of his camp, whom he thought were nothing better than vermin.
Survivors described how the fittest inmates were allowed to live to be used as slave labour. the old, sick and young were all murdered. Altogether between 6,000,000 and 12,000,000 people died.
This mass murder has become known as the Holocaust.
Until August 1934, President Hindenburg had the power to dismiss Adolf Hitler from the post of chancellor. When Hindenburg died in that month, Hitler was able to unite the offices of Chancellor and President and to adopt the new title of "Fuhrer" or Leader. From then on in Hitler was in total control of Germany.
Don't talk about the Nazis and the Cardassians like they are similar? Aren't they? Seems to me the Cardassians were modeled after the Nazis almost directly... Sorry for the history lesson, but someone needed it.
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thegame
Captain
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 752
Location: Buffalo, New York
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| Thu Feb 13, 2003 11:16 pm |
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Oh I needed it? Thanks but no thanks. The Cardassians are, in Trek terms, a race that spanned hundreds of years with similar political ideas about leadership and culture, yet the "thousand year Reich" lasted less than 12 total years.
I get enough history at College, as it is my major.
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Captain Michael Pike
Captain
Joined: 14 Jul 2001
Posts: 597
Location: PA
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| Thu Feb 13, 2003 11:17 pm |
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Oh yeah, there were groups, both Nazi and non-Nazi, who resisted the Nazi tenets, especially towards the end when collapse was inevitable. Hitler's own guards denied him and alligiance to him in the final hours. It was even thought that Hitler was assasinated by his closest advisors, and did not commit suicide.
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thegame
Captain
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 752
Location: Buffalo, New York
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| Thu Feb 13, 2003 11:19 pm |
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And don't try with the weak connection betweent the Order and Gestopo. All superpowers, even the mighty Federation, have a seceret police. You know, Section 31?
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thegame
Captain
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 752
Location: Buffalo, New York
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| Thu Feb 13, 2003 11:21 pm |
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Oddly enough I had my World War II class today, but perhaps I didn't get enough out of it? Come on Captain, lecture some more!
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Captain Michael Pike
Captain
Joined: 14 Jul 2001
Posts: 597
Location: PA
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| Thu Feb 13, 2003 11:22 pm |
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Again...very untrue. The Cardassians were a peaceful, artistic and religious culture for millenia. In many ways, they mirrored the Bajoran culture and it has been suggested that they are a related species who developed on the same planet. It was only when their society collapsed and anarchy reigned that the military took control and restored the to their "former glory". The Cardassian Union lasted less than fifty years on their own...
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thegame
Captain
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 752
Location: Buffalo, New York
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| Thu Feb 13, 2003 11:25 pm |
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Sorry for the excessive posting, but I've had an epiphany.
Here is the similarity we have been driving at:
Nazi Germany = Dominion occupied Cardassia of 2374-75.
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Captain Michael Pike
Captain
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Posts: 597
Location: PA
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| Thu Feb 13, 2003 11:25 pm |
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Don't try to tell me that Section 31 and the Obsidian Order are anywhere near the same thing. 31 is more like the United States' CIA or FBI, a secret organiztion that safeguards the lives of its citizens. The Order controlled people through fear and investigation. Simple proof of that is that nearly no one knew 31 had operated since the inception of the UFP.
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thegame
Captain
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 752
Location: Buffalo, New York
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| Thu Feb 13, 2003 11:27 pm |
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They served the same purpose: Protect the Union at all costs.
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Captain Michael Pike
Captain
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Posts: 597
Location: PA
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| Thu Feb 13, 2003 11:29 pm |
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I won't deny that the Dominion tried to commit genocide against the Cardassians, but that is where the similarities end. The Dominion was invited by the world leader of Cardassia to ally themselves with the Cardassians and strengthen their hold on the quadrant.
Cardassia = Third Reich
Dukat = Hitler
Enabran Tain = Himmler
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thegame
Captain
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 752
Location: Buffalo, New York
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| Thu Feb 13, 2003 11:30 pm |
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So if the Cardassians were peacful and cultured for the VAST majority of their history, how then is it fair to compare them as a whole to the Nazi's who wouldn't be classified as peacful or cultured at any time?
You said yourself that the Cardassians were patterned after the Nazi's. Check my comparrison.
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Captain Michael Pike
Captain
Joined: 14 Jul 2001
Posts: 597
Location: PA
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| Thu Feb 13, 2003 11:32 pm |
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Weren't the Germans, as a whole, generally peaceful, artistic and religious for the vast majority of their history?
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thegame
Captain
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 752
Location: Buffalo, New York
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| Thu Feb 13, 2003 11:36 pm |
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YES YES! You made my point for me. The original comparisson I challenged was the NAZI's and the Cardassians. It was not Germany and the Cardassians. There is a difference. The comparisson of Germany to Cardassia is a bit more acceptable, but the Germans were ferocious nomadic tribes, destroying Rome while the Cardassians were artists and peacful, according to Trek history.
The Nazi's ARE LIKE the Dukat (Dominion) led Cardassians of 2374, then on into 75 until the Damar resistance.
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Captain Michael Pike
Captain
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| Thu Feb 13, 2003 11:41 pm |
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I would almost give you that except the Cardassians Union was responsible for the oppression, forced labor, and eradication of the Bajor when they occupied it and BEFORE they ever met the Dominion. Secondly, Germany gave birth to the Nazi Regime in the same fashion that Cardassia gave birth to the Cardassian Union.
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thegame
Captain
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 752
Location: Buffalo, New York
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| Thu Feb 13, 2003 11:45 pm |
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The actions of the Cardassian Union during the Bajoran occupation are more remeniscent to the actions of most Imperial Powers on Earth during the age of Old Imperialism than to the Nazi's. The labor camps, like Gallitep, are the obvious similarity to the Nazi's, but the governmental ideas and practices were consistent with those of Imperial nations. The idea at Bajor was not to committ genocide or purge the quadrent of inferiors, it was rather to gain resources for the mother Union. The oppression of the people and culture comes with the territory in such an operation.
Again, the original Comparrisson was ALL Cardassia and just the Nazi's. Not both races as a whole, only one!
For reference, I am a German, in heritage.
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