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melodian
Sophomore Cadet
Joined: 17 Sep 2009
Posts: 11
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 Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:45 pm |
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my point is that in this case Janeway gave too much value to a fetus' life...."all life is priceless" is a very unsophisticated view ..especially for a star fleet captain. Where does it stop? sperm? Ovum? Plants? Bacteria? In the complex world of super advanced technology and strange aliens that Voyager dealt was often up against merited a much more sane reasonable decision from their captain in this episode. I almost expected her to start preaching the bible and talk about her God given right to own weapons....the technology of the voyager show was much more sophisticated in this instance than the faulty, rule based morality with the blind belief that in every case all life should be preserved..."thou shall nat kill"..give me a break...there arean infinite number of utilitarian theoretical situations of justified killings. Who lacks appreciation for subtlety? Is it me the simple minded viewer like u say? Or is it Janeway's oversimplified rule based moral codes ?
Oh yeah and lets not 4get that that she risked the lives of billions..yes BILLIONS to allow one yes JUST ONE fetus to grow. 
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alpinedigital
Freshman Cadet
Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Posts: 8
Location: Alpha Quadrant
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| Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:41 pm |
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Okay, I wish I could read up on all the stuff people are saying that Janeway did wrong, but I analyze the big picture and recall that Janeway isnt really a person with real human faults... she is a character written in stories for making Voyager episodes, and likely with quite a good deal of thought behind it. I'm almost willing to bed I can back her side with logical reason and justification for everything I've known her to do... and when I first read the question, I drew a blank. Then I read one of the older posts right after it, about the demon class planet and well, that wasn't even really Janeway, so as bad as her judgement was, it didn't really count.
I honestly cant remember a specific instance, but I remember the feeling of disagreeing with her decision once. Wasn't for Tuvix though, no way. Tuvix was the embodiment of two separate beings combined, functioning as a new person but was not. It was indeed Tuvok and Neelix. As a new person believing it was a separate being from the two and only retaining the memories and emotions, etc of those two, I still feel his few weeks or months of life do not justify him being spared.
Tuvix was not alive first, longer, or in higher numbers, nor did he have more friends and family, and so logically was less in every way relevant or not to the decision to separate him. Finally, voted on or not, Tuvix may or may not have won but it was ultimately the decision of a captain, and she could have cut her losses, but she didn't have to, so why should she?
*thinks hard* Her worst command decision was cutting her hair�?
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alpinedigital
Freshman Cadet
Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Posts: 8
Location: Alpha Quadrant
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| Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:48 pm |
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| minituvok wrote: | The worst command Janeway ever made? I couldn't decide the worst, but I can decide on a few that I disagreed with.
1) The execution of Tuvix. I know how people are thinking these days- "They killed Tuvok so they could have Tuvok and Neelix back. Don't they have a right to individuality?" True, Tuvok and Neelix had a choice of individuality. But need a remind you that Tuvix was a mix of Tuvok and Neelix? Thus, I assume that he had the memories of both- and the voice of both. What Tuvix said was in agreement with what Tuvok and Neelix wanted to say. So, if Tuvix wanted to live, then doesn't that mean that Tuvok and Neelix wanted to live as Tuvix? Janeway has rights as a Captain- but to murder a person ust so she can have 'the old Tuvok and Neelix' back isn't something she should have done.
2) The destruction of the array. Of course, this one is obvious. She pretty much ruined her crew-and Chakotay's crew- chances of getting home anytime soon. All for what? So the Kazon didn't hate her, or something? Pretty darn selfish, if you ask me. Yes, yes. I know the whole "She did it so she didn't make enemies" theory. Need I remind you that she did, indeed, end up making enemies of the Kazon? Would she have to deal with that if she had let the array 'live' and go home? No, she wouldn't have to care about the Kazon.
3) Seven of Nine staying onboard. Yes, I know. She's a great character- one of my personal favorites. But it was a HUGE risk to the crew to let her stay aboard. I mean, honestly. Would you let a Borg who stated "I will deceive you all" stay onboard your vessel? I don't think so. Kinda makes you wonder why she wanted 7 to stay onboard anyways- we all know it couldn't have been for the "to take away Chakotay" thing. Hmmm...but I suppose that's for a different thread, no?
4) This one isn't really relevant, but I'll state it anyways- Letting Chakotay go. I know, their relationship wasn't really...there, to be precise. Remember on that planet, when Janeway and Chakotay were stuck together in that house for weeks? That's when the relationship thing started. Janeway had a chance- she could really have gotten Chakotay 'twisted around her fingers' but she didn't. She had to keep that Captain reputation going on, even when she was no longer Captain. In my oppinion, she should have just confronted Chakotay, told him how she felt, and then live happily ever after with him in the middle of nowhere. Like I said, this one is purely my thoughts. |
1. The writers of the episode REALLY did well to make the moral debate strong for both sides, but what Tuvix says is not a collaboration of what Tuvok and Neelix would want to say.
I think it was his own natural will to survive that made him argue in his own behalf rather than choose the logical course of action which was to bring back the two individuals who had already TWO clearly established purposes for living which outweighed the purpose of the one. And it was not murder as the writers would like you to soul search and debate about. If Neelix and Tuvok are alive in him, what the hell makes anyone believe Tuvix will not remain alive in them?
2. Destroying the array was debateable because after seeing the neighborhood bullies and the Ocampa kids they pick on, and the Caretaker dying, what were her options? Stay there, under constant fire from Kazon while they figure out how to get the array to send them back, and if successful, leave the kids to the Kazon bullies... OR, Blow the thing and haul ass outta there. Personally, I wasn't very enthusiastic about the idea of the array sending ships back with the Caretaker being dead and all.
3. Seven was a human, and one of their own, lost while aboard a fleet vessel. You would leave her out there, and then what? Explain in your report how you once had the Hanson's kid Annika on board? Or do you come home to earth and say 'And look who the hell we ran into while we were out there!! It's the little Hanson girl -she's all grown up!" Oh, seriously... you keep your friends close, but your enemies closer. It was very wise to keep one of your most feared enemies right there with you... study her, get in her head, understand anything she reveals that can be an advantage in the next encounter. Besides that, Voyager's intel is basically whats in their own databanks... and Seven's wealth of knowledge greatly adds to that, which greatly increases their chance of getting home, at some risk, but there's no guarantee that NOT having aboard gets you a free pass.
Same deal with the Krenim space thing somebody posted. The words he said are
Krenim pilot: "This region is in dispute... You have no business in Krenim space."
Janeway: "I was under the impression we were entering Zahl territory"
Krenim pilot: "They have no legitimate claim... they have taken what is ours."
So he bails, they go further in, and are greeted nicely by the Zahl... Everything was going fine until the timewave hit, and then everything after that is an alternate timeline that never should have occured so it wasn't her decision to be there that caused it... she was still playing it safe enough until she was thrown into harsher circumstances. She said she was 'trying to talk but all she got was weapons fire.' Unfortunate series of events followed, but even a decision that unknowingly sends you into danger doesn't make it wrong or bad. I could decide to cross at the crosswalk and still get run over by a truck.
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milan
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 263
Location: Romania
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| Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:42 pm |
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| Cange wrote: | | Quote: | | the raised issues that seem to be lost on so many of the viewers. Pity. |
there is nothing to learn from this dude,the only reason Janeway survived all this long is because she was the heroes of the series...all the way trought the series she did mystake over mystake and she always end up having remorse,she barely ever paid for what she did.there is no moral in voyager dude wtf you talking about...im not even suprise to see you defend your precious series |
Again, it's you making some opinion statements backing them up with nothing. Blah blah as usual, propaganda. Sticks and stones, man. Better pay more attention to Voyager between the hate-filled fits you have when watching it and you might find you're watching a direct continuation of DS9 in terms of quality and direction.
@alpinedigital: for every possible detail of the Tuvix issue read back on the topic, we refuse to go into it again 
Janeway's hair looked much better in the later seasons, when she took the flying saucer off her head.
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alpinedigital
Freshman Cadet
Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Posts: 8
Location: Alpha Quadrant
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| Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:14 pm |
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| milan wrote: |
@alpinedigital: for every possible detail of the Tuvix issue read back on the topic, we refuse to go into it again |
Rather than have u link me to something specific, I'll just assume everyone shares my opinion on the matter.
Actually I read quite a bit but it was late and I wanted to get a look around real quick so I just said my bit. I agree with your page 1 assessment as well. I pretty much left the part of janeway out and focused on the reason I thought it was correct.
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Sara_Chakotay
Ensign
Joined: 01 Jan 2009
Posts: 59
Location: Toronto Canada
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| Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:27 pm |
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other than destroying the array
busting Tom down to ensign
and making a deal with the kazon
-------signature-------
(\__/)
(- '.'- ) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny
(")_(") into your signature to help him gain world domination
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milan
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 263
Location: Romania
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| Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:18 am |
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"Congratulations, Tom, for disobeying a direct order. May this commendation serve as an encouragement to all crew members to do likewise whenever they feel they don't agree with the decisions of their commanding officers."
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