Dominion VS Borg

[Cange]

[milan]

How do you know they cannot figure out the addiction? It's quite obvious in fact that they are addicted. And if even Bashir would have been able to find an antidote or what for the drug, the Borg would have had no problem with that either.
As for the close range weapons and auto destruct: you forget that as I said the Borg would probably have to use force fields and some tranquilizer gas. In KO position the Jem cannot flail about with a knife nor activate the self destruct, and by the time they wake up they are Borg.

[Cange]

no bashir didnt find the cure and he tried...what saved him is that they found a few sample of ketracel in a ship and yet i dont even think they could replicate it.

and for your forcefield we assume that borg forcefield is better then the one from the federation and even there,force field only work on borg ship...

[milan]

Now you even start MISREADING my posts, what's next? I wrote "And even Bashir WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE to find an antidote..." yes, quite possibly, if he had been left to do so by the Chief. I pay attention to DS9, not like you with Voyager
And yes, Borg forcefields on Borg ships. Haven't you boasted dozens of times how the Jem would board the Borg cubes and behave antisocially on them, urged by all the drug they got high on? The Borg would only have to sit back on their own ship, relax, and push the "Force Field" button at the right moment.

[Cange]

oof course

[Villordsutch]

Borg would win and use the planet of ooze as grease for there squeaky joints

[Cange]

forget that ive just rewatched the episode "to the death" today,its the episode where the jem hadar and the federation work together to fight rebel jem hadar,dude if the dominion would have theyr hand on on the iconian gateway not even the borg would have been a treat to the dominion.

also in this episode they say that within 3 days a jem hadar is ready to fight...now imagine how many time it take to make an army of jem hadar...

[milan]

...and now imagine every Jem soldier of that army being injected by the Borg, transforming their body for assimilation within minutes and then engineering those Borg parts to their body with the efficiency and know-how of a billion previous assimilations. And we have a brand new Jem Borg army within half an hour ofter the long wait of 3 days it took for the Founders to grow them. Work faster, guys!

[Cange]

sorry lol fail to see how they would manage to assimilate them

[milan]

Let's see: a dozen Borg cubes appear in Dominion space. Overzealous Jem soldiers start blasting. No damage. Overzealous Jem soldiers teleport to Borg cubes. Borg set up the force-fields around them and pump them full of gas. Overzealous Jems drop like flies. Borg assimilate. New Jem-Borg army invades Founder home-world. The end.

[Cange]

i got a better one for you

unlikely yet but lets assume your dozen borg cube get into dominion space,the jem hadar send theyr fleet to intercept,this fleet would about about 2000 ship of mixed vessel(jem hadar fighter,battlecruiser and battleship)

unlike you said the Cube dont seem to have any shield,everytime weve seen the federation ship shoot on a cube it did damage,the cube could regenerate the damage but they were getting hit.

but lets assume your little theory that the cube get unafected by dominion ship weapon,the jem hadar decide the treat is too great and decide to sacrifice theyr life for the founder and ram theyr fleet into these cube...both side lost however after 3 day later the dominion fleet is rebuild and ready to fight

after that the dominion study the wreck of all borg ship destroyed and start develop technology and defence againts the borg...next start produce delta type jem hadar wich would be breed to fight the borg.the founder decide to start infect the bog with virus and all kind of sabotage on the borg...after getting the collective into chaos the dominion manage to build such a large fleet that they take on the entire delta quadrant

oh and in the worse case for your little forcefield they could always breed more vorta to use theyr telekinesic blast on the forcefield

[CaptJD]

I will have to agree with Cange here simply because I've read a few pages back and I have yet to see any validation from milan about what makes the borg cube so invincible as we have seen them destroyed many times by a force of small vessels. We have also seen Voyager last several minutes in a skirmish with a Borg Tactical cube, this is prior to them receiving their godmods from future Janeway. The way I see it if a borg Tactical Cube can't even destroy Voyager in a few minutes/seconds what odds does a cube have against 600-1000 Dominion ships firing in tandem? It has also been proven in the movie First Contact that the borg cubes have a weak spot, this would likely be known by the founders as they operated within the Federation for quite awhile before being discovered more then likely assimilating as much knowledge as possible. So if you take the 600 Dominion ships from the previous example firing on the cube's vulnerable area then I don't see how the Dominion could lose, even against multiple Borg vessels. It has also been proven that the Dominion will establish footholds within enemy territory and move their manufacturing accordingly meaning that the supply lines are always short and soldiers are never in demand. Also seeing the Jem Hadars loyalty to the founders I don't see how they would ever take to being assimilated into the collective as they would no doubt commit suicide first, the assimilation process takes far to long for it to be affective against a race bred with no regard for life (being the life of ones self or another). Another interesting point is the lack of shielding on board Borg vessels this would no doubt be exploited immediately, and if the borg precieved it as a threat it would no doubt be adapted too but think of the damage that could be done before this is achieved? There's always a chance in war that either side could be victorious but when it comes to a race that was built for conquering with years of experience bred into their soldiers a race that has had a relatively easy time assimilating small alliances and worlds in the delta quadrant might not match up. But hey that's only my opinion for what its worth.

[milan]

[Cange]

haa man dude forget that,its like debating with a kid,you know fine the borg blow the entire dominion with one shot of phaser here you happy ?even better the borg destroye the entire glaxay with a torpedos is that make you feelin better??

unless someon else come to debate in this post i consider victory for the dominion[/quote]

[CaptJD]

debating without facts or proof just makes you sound ridiculous. As I stateed before after the battle of wolf 359 how many federation ships have been destroyed by the borg? Also how long did Voyager last in a fight against a borg tactical cube? To me id doesn't seem like the borg cube is as mighty as you make it out to be. As far as outgunned goes I don't believe that either, the borg's most effective weapon is their cutting beam, and as episodes have shown the federation have adapted to that issue meaning that the Dominion would as well seeing as they have shown quite a technical prowess. So to me it would seem that it is anyone's fight. As for the nerve gas comment that would seem valid but considering the Jem'hadar soldiers don't know anything but 'victory is life' and they hold no strategic value other then their brute force which the borg to not utilize to its potential, so assimilating Jem'hadar soldiers would not bring victory to the borg. So it all boils down to Ship strength, which both races have but the dominion have smaller and easier to manufacture shiips, which would suggest a larger army. Plus their weapons are nothing to laugh at either as it has been proven in several DS9 episodes. The borg are really only ever portrayed as the weaker race. Where the dominion would have taken control of the alpha quadrant if the wormhole aliens had not destroyed their fleet and held the rest inthe gamma quadrant, as was stated in DS9.

[milan]

[milan]

[Cange]

[CaptJD]

[milan]

@ Cange: again, I fish out the only part from your post that actually is worth debating: when the Borg went back to pre-warp Earth. I believe it was actually you that said a war is won by any means necessary. They won it. No one else did. Period.

@JD: now don't tell me the Borg, masters of technology would have trouble de-activating a shield. This is like someone once said in a parody about 24th century Federation technology and Picard: "Oh you have cancer? No problem, beep-beep - you're cured. Oh, you are bald? Sorry, can't help you."
The fact that the Borg didn't conquer the Dominion is a sign that they don't consider them a threat, and they are not children to just acquire and acquire for no apparent reason. I have stated my arguments why the Dominion would be no match to the Borg, until they fall, any affirmation that "They should watch out for them or risk being conquered" is irrelevant.
Also, you say the Borg had trans-warp technology and they still didn't win against the federation. But you forget that while with the Dominion it was a full-scale war, with the Borg it was just small skirmishes. No real war ever took place, only some individual battles. Because the Borg didn't make up their minds to assimilate the Federation. Again, their goal is to better themselves, not to build an empire. And when they did make up their minds to conquer Earth they did so without even breaking a sweat. Which the Dominion never achieved.

[Cange]

[CaptJD]

[milan]

As for your last remark, blah-blah, as you could see with my (Dominion) war with Cange, I care not about personal insults disguised or not. Let's cut to the chase:
1. Thank you for correcting me, the Borg are truly not masters of technology, they are masters of technologIES! Meaning all the technologies of all the assimilated races, which gives them technological advantage over any one race. Plus only stating that "the Borg are not masters of technology" is ludicrous bordering the idiotic, I'll not even mention assimilation technology, rotating shield frequencies, I'll just show you the picture of a Borg cube. No other race from the ST universe has that, leaving the viewer to assume that is a Borg original. And with that, case closed. At present the Borg work with assimilation. But they had to start from somewhere, and I do believe it wasn't with pushing tree branches into the first race they encountered and saying: ok, you're assimilated.
2. The Borg have not ventured "THAT FAR" into the gamma quadrant?? And you write that down? After their trans-warp conduits to all four sectors, and let's mention only all the claims in the first seasons of DS9, when all the Gamma races stated: "If you're in the Gamma Quadrant, you've got to know the Dominion." I'm surprised Cange hasn't jumped on you, who keeps repeating as a credo: the Dominion rules ALL the Gamma Quadrant. But then again, Cange sees it as "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Whatever.
3. "I think the Borg HAVE an empire, and if engaged by the dominion they would use it. I just do not believe they would achieve victory." - these, my friend, are no arguments. These are your opinions that now YOU state over and over (as you accused me not so long ago), and do not tilt the scales one way or the other. Let's try to focus on actually trying to have a debate here.
4. "cyborgs controlled by one being" - you see how you oversimplify what you don't like to try to make it look inferior to your favourites. First: the Borg are one mind where everyone is in agreement. They are actually exactly the way you describe the Founders: many minds discussing and planning military strategy and scientific discovery". And the Queen is the embodiment of their decision. The Queen is just a drone, we have seen it, she can be destroyed, she has been destroyed. If the Queen had been the mind behind the Borg, the Borg would have been destroyed. But the Borg live on, because the Borg (you see even the name: it is the name of one being: the Borg (no plural sign) that consists of millions and millions of minds in unison.) All the races they assimilate add to the Borg, become the Borg. But sure, they are just one bunch of cyborgs controlled by a tyrant woman. This is how you guys see Voyager too, no wonder you argue against the Borg too.
5. Even the trailer of that certain ST movie has the line that goes something like this: (someone assessing the situation to Picard) "Earth: population: five billion. All Borg." And the end result was not in discussion. I argued that the Borg assimilated Earth whereas the Dominion's great feat was landing 4 changelings on Earth.

[Hockey]

Several thoughts before I answer. I read here that people think that the Jem�Hadar can grow new ones faste than the Borg can assimilate. I don�t think so, there was an episode about a new new Jem�Hadar being found by DS 9 staff. It took several days for the kid to mature. And once the Borg assimilate one, they will have another warrior.

The Dominion consists of many races, each with their strength, but most are held as slaves. There are only three loyal to the Founders, being the Founders themselves, the Vorta and the Jem�Hadar. What makes them strong is no need for sleep or food or sex or companionship. As well as their will to commit suicide in taking out an enemy. But they also need Ketracell White, what if the Borg could cut off the supply?

The Borg have a different strength. Among which transwarp capability. And probably a larger number of ships. All in all I think the Borg would win, fairly easily.

Unless, unless. The Borg have so far never faced a war against multiple allies. Every time they went on the assimilation path nobody helped the endangered race. Every one just cowered down hoping they would not get attacked also and the threat would someday just disappear.
But what if the Galaxy finally realized that they needed to stop the Borg and would help the Dominion, just to stop the Borg? Then I think the Borg would suffer heavy losses, as well as any race fighting the Borg and the Borg would eventually lose. After which this alliance would disband and they would move in on the Dominion to stop them as well.

So here's my prediction.

The Borg would attack, and gain the upper hand, but suffer heavy losses. Once it became clear the Borg would win, the Domnion would somehow enlist the help of other races who see the danger of an even more powerful Borg that had assimilated the Domnion and this would create an alliance against the Borg. This alliance would suffer heavy losses but defeat the Borg. They would then disband and attack the Dominion and defeat them as well.

PS: I think the writers have done a poor job in the assimilation of species 116 (Arturis). You always hear the Borg say that they will add the biological and technological distinctivenesses of a race to their own. But it became more and more about assimilating the technology and improving their own technology with the newly assimilated technology, but they never seemed to improve their own biology.
Assimilating species 116 meant they had assimilated the ability to learn many languages and a also quantum slipstream drive.

[Cange]

there we go again i have to come back in the topic