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Captain Janeway 's Worst Command Decision
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milan
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Joined: 18 Jan 2009
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PostMon May 04, 2009 10:45 am    

If we go on like this, our argument will have 7 seasons too... very easily, since this is a debate and debaters always find and exploit weak links in the opponent's argumentation. I'll just point out the most hilarious parts of your argumentation: you try to blame Janeway, and at the same time you say the voyager crew helped species and the sort. Janeway is the captain, she gave all the orders for the ship and any of the crew members to help and save and you name it. You have been in contradiction with yourself for a long time.
You talk about the Barzan Wormhole and the Ferengi: that also proves MY point: that she always sees the greater good: the life of a crew cannot outweigh the lives of a whole colony for maybe more generations, if the Ferengi had kept up their charade. Their beliefs would have been destroyed..how about some alien coming to Earth, proving somehow that God was a fake? Imagine the consequences on countless lives.
We cannot know if the Borg were destroyed or not, there have been plenty of debates on this very site: is the Borg queen dead? Can they survive without a Queen? But even if they did, every weakening of their powers means systems and planets getting to live, escaping assimilation. Even as little as ONE PLANET would have meant a great success, imagine if some Borg-like creatures DIDN"T destroy Earth because a small crew of benevolent aliens.
Janeway is not a criminal because she ended up in the Delta Quadrant. That's a ridiculous statement and that's that. Now who's twisting whose words?
Admiral Janeway "should have said it?" Now you're assuming you would be a better writer than the Star Trek writer staff... plus this has got nothing to do with the topic.
and YES, my "guess" about a better or worse future WAS conjecture, deliberately so! To prove my point, hellooo...

And what is bad in changing the future to a better one? Then we can throw out all the science fiction books dealing with time travel (and that is not a small part of it) and say: are you evil or crazy or both?? Changing the future?? Let's go to the Terminator 2 writers and protest that Arnie played an evil character! She altered the future of Skynet! Boooo!
And yes, the last two stories we wrote ARE IMAGINARY NONSENSE! we meant them to be...
Now putting all this -as much as we can make them- logical argumentation aside, we, the fans who actually liked STV, Janeway, and Seven was our crown jewel, were quite desperate when the story was about Seven actually dying. Gosh it made me sick with worry, in a manner of speaking... When I first watched the episode and the Admiral was trying to persuade the Captain with logical facts I was like: "Cut the crap, grab her by the collar and shout into her eyes: SEVEN'S GONNA DIE, NOW DO SOMETHING!!!!!" I think it was a very nice touch that it actually happened in a way. It didn't wanna show anything about trillions of Borg or innocent lives, it wanted to show something about true friendship and the dearest of human emotions and relationships. That you can fight Hell and give up life and limb for someone you love. I saw this in the episode. Why don't we argue that in Star Wars the blowing up of the Death Star made Luke a mass murderer? That the character who was the role model of a generation is actually a cold and evil human being? Because the film is NOT about that!! Of course all the Star Wars haters will point that out over and over. Ok, we got your point, Founder: you don't like STV. That's no crime, you're not an evil person because of that. Actually I like you much, you're the only person in here who I could converse with for so long about a STV topic.


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La Forge
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PostMon May 04, 2009 8:32 pm    

There's clearly only one way we can truly decide Janeway's merit as a captain: an intergalactic boxing match between her and... uhh... the entire Klingon Empire. Now, I know what you're thinking, "Janeway would win blindfolded and with both legs tied together." Alright, so let's give the Klingons... uhh... let's give 'em all rocket launchers and let's chop Janeway's arms off. Janeway still wins, even though she literally can't box anymore, am I right? That's what it sometime feels like with Janeway-inites. She can do no wrong, right? No matter how people she inadvertently (and somtimes... advertently? Did I make that word up?) kills, she's still Time's Person of the Year.

Now, let me throw this out there: I don't hate VOY. I can find something to like about each and every Star Trek. I mean, VOY had a great, if not sometimes poorly-executed premise, the hi-larious Doctor, and Seven, who's greatness is sort of obvious (at least, if you've got an y chromosome). VOY's worst command decision was making Janeway. It's a shame Janeway sucks so much, 'cause I really wanted to like the first female captain. It was a big step for the franchise, y'know? But, instead of getting a complex and flawed, yet ultimately great captain (the female equivalent to Captain Sisko), I got her, a hypocritical and selfish robot woman.


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milan
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PostTue May 05, 2009 4:04 am    

Those are some nice big words you're throwing, care to sustain it with arguments or are you just another Janeway-hater? Don't hate her cuz she's so perfekt!

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Founder
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PostWed May 06, 2009 1:46 am    

milan wrote:
If we go on like this, our argument will have 7 seasons too... very easily, since this is a debate and debaters always find and exploit weak links in the opponent's argumentation.


Yep, that's usually what debates entail.

milan wrote:
I'll just point out the most hilarious parts of your argumentation: you try to blame Janeway, and at the same time you say the voyager crew helped species and the sort. Janeway is the captain, she gave all the orders for the ship and any of the crew members to help and save and you name it. You have been in contradiction with yourself for a long time.


That isn't a contradiction. When a crewmen saves the day, they didn't do it because Janeway ordered them to do so. You're making it sound like the crew are mindless zealots that only do heroic things because good ole Janeway is around to cause them to do it.

She did not give the orders for Tom Paris to save those (water aliens, the name I've forgotten). In fact, his heroics caused him to be demoted.

She didn't give the orders for "Scorpion". In fact, Janeway should be thankful that Chakotay was there to warn her of her idiocy.

She didn't give the orders to save a crewmen of the Equinox. Chakotay did it because Janeway was torturing said crewmen.

She didn't give the orders for the EMH to save the life of the command officer of those (hologram hating aliens).

Her crew displayed their own heroics and often in antithesis of her orders.

milan wrote:
You talk about the Barzan Wormhole and the Ferengi: that also proves MY point: that she always sees the greater good: the life of a crew cannot outweigh the lives of a whole colony for maybe more generations, if the Ferengi had kept up their charade. Their beliefs would have been destroyed..how about some alien coming to Earth, proving somehow that God was a fake? Imagine the consequences on countless lives.


Admiral Janeway could have dealt with the Ferengi, while the VOY crew use the wormhole to leave. Or, they could have beaten the Ferengi together, but she warns the VOY crew to use the wormhole with them or it will be destroyed.

Sorry, but she had other options here and didn't even try.

milan wrote:
We cannot know if the Borg were destroyed or not, there have been plenty of debates on this very site: is the Borg queen dead? Can they survive without a Queen? But even if they did, every weakening of their powers means systems and planets getting to live, escaping assimilation. Even as little as ONE PLANET would have meant a great success, imagine if some Borg-like creatures DIDN"T destroy Earth because a small crew of benevolent aliens.


She didn't weaken them. She strengthened them. They assimilated the future technology and now are able to combat it. She set Starfleet back decades because of this. It was bad enough they could barely fight the Borg in the 24th century, but now the technology from the 25th century was useless as they had adapted to it.

Almost all sources state the Borg survived, albeit very hurt.

milan wrote:
Janeway is not a criminal because she ended up in the Delta Quadrant. That's a ridiculous statement and that's that. Now who's twisting whose words?


I'm not twisting words. YOU said "As for not saving lives in the Delta Quadrant for another decade, they weren't even supposed to be there in the first place. The Prime Directive states that the Federation should not interfere in the natural lives of other species, and Janeway honoured that by taking away a whole decade of interference."

What does that mean if not that she violated the prime directive by being in the Delta Quadrant and meeting the alien species there?

milan wrote:
Admiral Janeway "should have said it?" Now you're assuming you would be a better writer than the Star Trek writer staff... plus this has got nothing to do with the topic.


A monkey is a better writer then the VOY writers.

As a member of the audience, I can state my opinion on dialogue. There is a reason that the Trek community is divided on "Endgame". If it was as perfect as some fanboys make it seem, then there'd be little to no divide.

milan wrote:
and YES, my "guess" about a better or worse future WAS conjecture, deliberately so! To prove my point, hellooo...


Um...I'm well aware of that...

milan wrote:
And what is bad in changing the future to a better one?


Who decides it is a better one? Janeway was selfish and thought that she'll save the lives of three crewmen in exchange for changing everyone else's future. She did not go back to destroy the Borg, no matter how much you want to pretend. Admiral Janeway even tries to talk Captain Janeway out of doing anything to the Borg!

And if all the Starfleet captains were as stupid and selfish as Janeway, they'd always go back and alter time for personal gain. Kirk didn't go back in time to save Spock when he died in "Wrath of Khan". Sisko did not go back in time when Jadzia died by Dukat. Picard did not go back in time to save Data when he died in "Nemesis". These were REAL captains that understood death and loss was natural and something that a person has to come to terms with.

How old is Janeway that she has not come to grips with this? I've met children that take death better then that woman.

milan wrote:
Then we can throw out all the science fiction books dealing with time travel (and that is not a small part of it) and say: are you evil or crazy or both?? Changing the future?? Let's go to the Terminator 2 writers and protest that Arnie played an evil character! She altered the future of Skynet! Boooo!


What you said here makes little sense, but I'll try and counter as best possible.

Why would we throw out all books dealing with time travel? I said nothing of the sort.

Terminator is a ridiculous comparison as the two are not even comparable. Arnold DOES play an evil robot from the future that went into the past to change things for the machines. In part two, he goes back to change things for Mankind (he was reprogrammed). Either scenario, he had no choice but to go back and obey as he was a machine.

Is Janeway a machine? Nope.

Does Janeway have the temporal prime directive stopping her? Yes (or at least should).

Although, I will admit that I think time travel is over used and filled with too many plot holes. I've rarely seen shows/movies that dealt with it in an intelligent way (Endgame not being one of them).

milan wrote:
And yes, the last two stories we wrote ARE IMAGINARY NONSENSE! we meant them to be...


I didn't say otherwise...

milan wrote:
Now putting all this -as much as we can make them- logical argumentation aside, we, the fans who actually liked STV, Janeway, and Seven was our crown jewel, were quite desperate when the story was about Seven actually dying. Gosh it made me sick with worry, in a manner of speaking... When I first watched the episode and the Admiral was trying to persuade the Captain with logical facts I was like: "Cut the crap, grab her by the collar and shout into her eyes: SEVEN'S GONNA DIE, NOW DO SOMETHING!!!!!" I think it was a very nice touch that it actually happened in a way. It didn't wanna show anything about trillions of Borg or innocent lives, it wanted to show something about true friendship and the dearest of human emotions and relationships. That you can fight Hell and give up life and limb for someone you love. I saw this in the episode.


Fair enough. You wanted personal drama, not cold hard statistics.

Trek has done this before in an intelligent way. Watch "The Visitor", "The City On The Edge Of Forever", or "Yesterday's Enterprise". It dealt with time travel, but in a much more plausible way. Neither Sisko, Kirk, or Picard went back in time for stupid reasons.

Janeway wanting to save Chakotay, Tuvok, and Seven wasn't stupid in itself. She loved them (minus the times she hurt them during the show's run). I can buy that much. The problem comes in HOW she wanted to save them. It was a stupid premise and it is hard to ignore that her going back to save them had a lot more ramifications.

milan wrote:
Why don't we argue that in Star Wars the blowing up of the Death Star made Luke a mass murderer? That the character who was the role model of a generation is actually a cold and evil human being?


Luke wasn't a mass murderer. He destroyed a space station filled with individuals who had no problem destroying entire worlds and murdering billions. If he is a murderer, then soldiers that fight for their country are murderers. This analogy makes 0 sense.

Not to mention, if you're using that analogy to compare Luke to Janeway...um...WHAT? Janeway did not screw up time to save people from a destructive force. She went back in time to save a couple of ole buddies. That's it.

milan wrote:
Because the film is NOT about that!! Of course all the Star Wars haters will point that out over and over.


I know it isn't about that and I know the point of Endgame was not her destroying the future, but to rescue her friends that she loves. It was to show that she felt loyalty to her crew and would do anything for them. That their journey was important, not the destination. Etc.

The problem is not the premise, but the unintelligent writing. They try to write stories and do so in a lowest common denominator fashion. It's insulting to fans to have to watch something like that and ask that we ignore all the stupid things and just watch Janeway and Seven hug lots.

The worst part of this is that VOY was capable of a lot more. There were episodes that were overwhelmingly emotional and good. The episode with the Doctor's holographic family was superbly acted and well written. Same with the episode about Torres/Paris' child and her fear that Tom will leave the family. The REAL tragedy of Endgame was that the show could do better and it didn't.

milan wrote:
Ok, we got your point, Founder: you don't like STV. That's no crime, you're not an evil person because of that.


Nope. I like VOY a lot. It's Janeway I hated and Janeway does not = VOY. As I pointed out before, this show had truly impacting and well acted episodes. The finale was NOT one of them.

milan wrote:
Actually I like you much, you're the only person in here who I could converse with for so long about a STV topic.


It does bring me back to the old days of being on here. There used to be dozens of VOY fans I'd argue. Suffice it to say, I was not too popular here.

La Forge wrote:
It's a shame Janeway sucks so much, 'cause I really wanted to like the first female captain. It was a big step for the franchise, y'know? But, instead of getting a complex and flawed, yet ultimately great captain (the female equivalent to Captain Sisko), I got her, a hypocritical and selfish robot woman.


That's exactly how I feel. Janeway was not only a new character, but the first female captain to hold her own show. She was an insult.

Also, just to stay on topic...

Another controversial thing Janeway did was tamper with the Doctor's programming to make him forget the pain/guilt he felt for choosing to save Harry Kim's life over an ensign's in Latent Image. Instead of seeing the doctor as a person that needed help, she deleted his programming like he was a piece of machinery. Ugh.


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milan
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
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PostWed May 06, 2009 10:19 am    

Ok, let me point out only some episodes when she DID give orders or saved the day herself, fisrt and foremost Year of Hell, when she single handedly restored not only Voyager, but also countless civilizations and lives. That deed alone kicks the ass of any counter-example involving a few Equinox crewmen etc. The scale of lives saved and restored just wipes the floor with every little "stumble" that you might see in other episodes. Juggernaught: Janeway orders the toxic ship destroyed, another set of countless lives saved. But how about when she risks herself personally for the crew, for example in the case of the microviruses, or even one single crew member, who is not even Seven, in favour of whom you say she discriminates, no, it's Kes, when she takes that ritual on the planet when Kes is in a coma. And the list goes on.
In the second instance, you try to force your point by refusing to think outside the box: imagine the grandious last episode: the Admiral deals with two Ferengi and Voyager slips home in a wormhole. The end. I've seen a little comic film on Youtube about Lord of the Rings: Frodo flies over Mount Doom on an eagle, drops the Ring into the volcano, the story ends in 2 minutes. And they laugh: "Imagine if we had to WALK all the way! Someone might have died!" Still I don't see anybody saying Frodo is evil, selfish. Do you know why? Because it would be hilarious! And look, in spite of this "fatal" it was nominated "book of the century". Let's remember the basic purposes of writing fiction: "docere et delectare." To teach and to entertain.Endgame taught us about friendship and entertained us with kickass action. Or shall we start another thread: "Frodo is evil, who's with me?"
Well, even you admit that the borg were "very hurt", so yes, thank you, Janeway did that. To say that they assimilated future technology and became stronger is not in the story, it's only your opinion, which is as good as mine when I say: the Borg were so hurt that they needed at least a century to even recover to the level they were when the Janeways attacked, by which point Starfleet had already gained decades to perfect their defence against them, based ESPECIALLY on the countless teraquads of data Janeway and Voyager brought home about the Borg.
As to "a monkey is a better writer", I hope you also stuck out your tongue

To the violation of the Prime Directive: Voyager was taken into the Delta Quadrant, Janeway can't be blamed for that. What she can be blamed for is the deliberate actions that she might perform there. Ten years less in the Quadrant is ten years less of your aggressive blaming. It's a good thing too, had they remained 10 more years, you would have damned her to the deepest bowels of the Abyss for displacing spacedust or other horrible crimes. Of course not her crew members. The spacedust her crew members displaced was put to good use.
I'm not saying Janeway went back to destroy the Borg. She went back to save friends. As I have already tried to point out, that was the meaning Endgame tried to convey, obviously lost on some: that friendship and emotions are sacred. Not that friendship and emotions are not as sacred as the Borg.
YOu say Janeway is bad because she went even beyond death to save her friends. How many epics deal with that theme? Still no one thinks of saying: "hey, that Odysseus... what a selfish hypocrite!" Do you know why? Because everyone would laugh about them missing the whole point!
PLus who says getting your friend back from the dead is bad? I guess now even Seven is on trial for bringing Neelix back after him being dead for 17 hours. Sure, point out that even Neelix reproached her that and miss a whole lot of other points of the show! I am beginning to feel you people don't like Janeway and Voyager because you didn't understand it!
Even your argument with the Terminator completely misses the point. Did you not understand that either maybe? For the record, Arnie doesn't play an Evil robot, a robod is a robot. As you say, programmed. The programmer may be evil or good. But that is beside the point. As is your counterargument, which only replaces the Terminator with John Connor, who programmed him. So now John is an evil character. Cuz he programmed Termie to change the future if he can. And yes you did say in a way that we should throw out books dealing with time travel, because in your interpretation time travel equals destroying the future. So all time travelling heroes are in fact evil, selfish, hypocritical agents of destruction. Like Janeway.
As for the other captains going back in time, you have the sole right to say which reasons are worth going back in time for and which are not. And Janeway's were stupid. Mostly the HOW. By even cutting the journey short by ten years and giving the crew back ten years of confinement on a warship. Really bad way of saving your friends. Oh, she ended up destroying or setting back the most dangerous enemies of all the creatures in the Universe, too... Booo! Definitely unacceptable.
My analogy with Luke makes 100% sense, thank you very much. If not, go take up your cause with the lawyers who dealt with World War criminals. The soldiers who fight under a commander are not criminals. If the deed is evil, the commander is at fault. The soldiers are following orders, if they don't obey they are courtmartialled and executed. Great choice. And they have families at home whom they are responsible for too. Just like the people on the Death Star had them. Families who deeply mourned their loss. But you could make an appeal to the High Court of Justice and execute a million World War veterans, I guess... Plus, again, you say Janeway "screwed up time for some buddies." That's also point of view, not fact. Fact is she ALTERED time. Your point of view is she screwed it up, my point of view is she improved it. These kinds of statements from you don't tip the scales to anyone's favour. Let's try to focus on the topic.
And finally you drive the dagger into your own heart: "the real tragedy of Endgame was that the show could do better and it didn't." "The finale was NOT a good episode" So our debate finally surfaced your real problem: it's not Janeway, that she's evil or cold, etc. It's that you didn't like the plots/plot. I suggest we take this debate to the "Endgame" thread then maybe.
As to the deleting the doctor's memories in that episode, again: helloo!!! Missing the point!!! That episode was EXACTLY about the fact that YES, even Janeway makes mistakes! As Seven points out to her: I considered you a role model. Now I don't know anymore. And in the end Janeway did realise and correct her own mistake. That's what is called an evolving character, a much deeper and thoroughly written character than the traditional flat character. So yes, STV was a great show from many points of view


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Founder
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PostWed May 06, 2009 1:31 pm    

milan wrote:
Ok, let me point out only some episodes when she DID give orders or saved the day herself, fisrt and foremost Year of Hell, when she single handedly restored not only Voyager, but also countless civilizations and lives.


Single-handedly!? Are you kidding me? Wow, so when Chakotay and Tom Paris disabled Annorax's ship, allowing VOY and that fleet to attack the ship, that didn't happen? Janeway must have telepathically "given the order to do it" right? Give me a break.

milan wrote:
That deed alone kicks the ass of any counter-example involving a few Equinox crewmen etc. The scale of lives saved and restored just wipes the floor with every little "stumble" that you might see in other episodes.


! "stumble"? I hardly call torturing people a "stumble". Also, as I pointed out, she did not do single handedly stop Annorax.

milan wrote:
Juggernaught: Janeway orders the toxic ship destroyed, another set of countless lives saved.


That isn't true at all. No Malon ship was destroyed by Janeway. Now you're just lying.

The episode, first of all, was about TORRES, not Janeway. TORRES saved the day in the episode. She has to fight a mutated Malon and save Neelix. Janeway did nothing in this episode. The toxic ship is destroyed by falling into a star.

milan wrote:
But how about when she risks herself personally for the crew, for example in the case of the microviruses, or even one single crew member, who is not even Seven, in favour of whom you say she discriminates, no, it's Kes, when she takes that ritual on the planet when Kes is in a coma. And the list goes on.


After seeing through your last "example", I have no idea if these episodes are even true.

In the case of the MACROvirus, it was her AND the Doctor (you know the person that developed the cure to fight the virus invaders?) I guess we'll just put him as footnote?

milan wrote:
In the second instance, you try to force your point by refusing to think outside the box: imagine the grandious last episode: the Admiral deals with two Ferengi and Voyager slips home in a wormhole. The end. I've seen a little comic film on Youtube about Lord of the Rings: Frodo flies over Mount Doom on an eagle, drops the Ring into the volcano, the story ends in 2 minutes. And they laugh: "


I've seen that and it is very humerous.

milan wrote:
Imagine if we had to WALK all the way! Someone might have died!" Still I don't see anybody saying Frodo is evil, selfish. Do you know why? Because it would be hilarious! And look, in spite of this "fatal" it was nominated "book of the century". Let's remember the basic purposes of writing fiction: "docere et delectare." To teach and to entertain.Endgame taught us about friendship and entertained us with kickass action. Or shall we start another thread: "Frodo is evil, who's with me?"


First of all comparing LOTR writing to VOY writing is just flat out offensive. One is good, the other is not.

While they did make fun of LOTR for it, a LOTR fan can easily show that the books explained why they did not use the Eagles from day 1. So while it is a funny video, it is wrong. However, VOY, Janeway DID have a choice. Once again, this comparison is faulty.

"Endgame" had a crappy premise. It was impossible to dumb myself down to enjoy the "meaning" behind it because I couldn't get past how dumb it was. Janeway was a terrible character over her actions in this episode.

You're just NOT getting it for some reason. I pointed out (and you ignored) that time travel, if it has to be done, can be done intelligently. I pointed out that there are other ways to show Janeway cares deeply for Seven, Chakotay, and Tuvok without making her look like a complete and utter fool. As a Janeway fan, it's hilarious how you dont' find this episode laughable and offensive to her. But Janeway can do no wrong!

milan wrote:
Well, even you admit that the borg were "very hurt", so yes, thank you, Janeway did that.


Nope, VOY did that. Would you stop giving her all the credit. This is just ridiculous. I admit they're hurt, not destroyed. And the others were just as responsbile for that.

milan wrote:
To say that they assimilated future technology and became stronger is not in the story, it's only your opinion, which is as good as mine when I say: the Borg were so hurt that they needed at least a century to even recover to the level they were when the Janeways attacked, by which point Starfleet had already gained decades to perfect their defence against them, based ESPECIALLY on the countless teraquads of data Janeway and Voyager brought home about the Borg.


Wrong...again. It IS in the story.

"I may have assimilated your pathogen...but I also assimilated your armor technology." - Borg Queen (shortly before "dying")

Also, they had adapted to the weapons earlier in the episode. So now they know how to combat the weapons and shields.

Your little story is made up and has no backing. Mine is mentioned in the episode itself.

milan wrote:
As to "a monkey is a better writer", I hope you also stuck out your tongue


I saw the irony in this statement.

milan wrote:
To the violation of the Prime Directive: Voyager was taken into the Delta Quadrant, Janeway can't be blamed for that. What she can be blamed for is the deliberate actions that she might perform there. Ten years less in the Quadrant is ten years less of your aggressive blaming. It's a good thing too, had they remained 10 more years, you would have damned her to the deepest bowels of the Abyss for displacing spacedust or other horrible crimes. Of course not her crew members. The spacedust her crew members displaced was put to good use.


Haha! So now you're saying it's a good thing she wasn't there to screw up anymore and allow people like me to tear her apart. Do you not, as a Janeway fan, see anything very wrong about this?

You should be upset that Janeway was written to screw up as much she did. As a Janeway fan, you should be irritated with the writers for doing what they did to the character, rather then try to explain your way around all of her mistakes and herald her as the greatest captain ever seen.

milan wrote:
I'm not saying Janeway went back to destroy the Borg. She went back to save friends. As I have already tried to point out, that was the meaning Endgame tried to convey, obviously lost on some: that friendship and emotions are sacred. Not that friendship and emotions are not as sacred as the Borg.


I know what the point was. I said it earlier like ten times. There were more intelligent ways of writing an episode like this.

The problem was how they made Janeway do it. It was stupid and her decision was "controversial", thus back to this topic eh?

milan wrote:
YOu say Janeway is bad because she went even beyond death to save her friends. How many epics deal with that theme? Still no one thinks of saying: "hey, that Odysseus... what a selfish hypocrite!" Do you know why? Because everyone would laugh about them missing the whole point!


I guess no matter how many times I say it, YOU will never get the point. I'm well aware of what Janeway was doing and how it was meant to be done. You're beating a dead horse at this point and I'm tired of explaining this point to you over and over....

Let's try one...final...time. She went beyond death to save her friends at the cost of other people's future and decided that she knew what was best for everybody. That loses it's heroics and she just becomes a self-serving hypocrite.

milan wrote:
PLus who says getting your friend back from the dead is bad?


If it comes at the price it came when Admiral Janeway did it...then it's really bad...

milan wrote:
I guess now even Seven is on trial for bringing Neelix back after him being dead for 17 hours. Sure, point out that even Neelix reproached her that and miss a whole lot of other points of the show!


Nope. Yet again, another poor comparison. Seven did not have to alter the future to bring Neelix back from the dead. She did not have to risk the crew's lives with dealing with the Borg. She did not risk their future of them getting home in exchange for a possible future where they may die trying to get home earlier. All Seven did was bring Neelix back with the watchful eye of the Doctor.

Nice try, though.

milan wrote:
I am beginning to feel you people don't like Janeway and Voyager because you didn't understand it!


Who said they didn't like VOY? I and the poster earlier that lambasted Janeway said we liked VOY. We hate Janeway and not because we didn't "understand" her oh so complex ways, because the writing was atrocious and made Janeway look like a fool.

The problem with your argument about us "missing the point" is that you're wrong. We understand that the point of episode A is love or that episode B is friendship, etc. The problem is how it is written. Other Trek shows dealt with these same themes but did it in a way that the characters were not compromised. Janeway was a fool from episode 1! Her actions with the Caretaker's Array were stupid and it served as a sign of things to come.

milan wrote:
Even your argument with the Terminator completely misses the point. Did you not understand that either maybe? For the record, Arnie doesn't play an Evil robot, a robod is a robot. As you say, programmed. The programmer may be evil or good. But that is beside the point. As is your counterargument, which only replaces the Terminator with John Connor, who programmed him. So now John is an evil character. Cuz he programmed Termie to change the future if he can.


Skynet, which programmed him, is the villain of the series and is trying to commit genocide against Mankind. It altering the future for personal gain is consistent in the story.

Connor is part of a losing force and is desperate to win the war at any costs. The future was already bad and he wanted to save Mankind at any costs. Not to mention, he knew Skynet was sending Terminators back to kill him, so he sent one of his own to protect him. In any case, he isn't evil because he's not altering the future for personal gain, but trying to preserve it. If he died prematurely in the past, the resistance dies with him.

Was Janeway an evil machine trying to alter the future at any costs for genocidal purposes?

Was Janeway part of a ragtag group of people losing a war and desperate to win at any costs?

Nope. She was just bored and depressed and had nothing better to do. She didn't even go back in time to save billions. Nope. Just a few cremen she valued higher over others that died on the journey (Joe Carey anyone!?). So not only does she look like a fool, but she plays favorites with the crewmen.

[quote="milan"]And yes you did say in a way that we should throw out books dealing with time travel, because in your interpretation time travel equals destroying the future. So all time travelling heroes are in fact evil, selfish, hypocritical agents of destruction. Like Janeway.[quote="milan"]...

Time travel is not always destroying the future. In fact, I pointed out episodes of Trek that did them intelligently. The movie Butterfly Effect handled it well. Heroes (sometimes...) dealt with it well. Back to the Future. Terminator. The Time Machine (the book, the movie sucked). Even the new Trek movie all deal with time travel in much more intelligent ways.

Some times time travel is preserving the future. Some times it is done by accident. Other times, the hero learns a valuable lesson about what he/she has done.

Janeway is not part of this group at all. Janeway does it out boredom/depression. Janeway goes back to save a SELECT few, not even her entire crew. Janeway does not go back to stop the Borg threat.

Time travel is not always about destroying/altering the future. Stop twisting my words. I said in the case of "Endgame", Janeway does alter the future for many in bringing VOY back home. She doesn't even care about that.

milan wrote:
As for the other captains going back in time, you have the sole right to say which reasons are worth going back in time for and which are not. And Janeway's were stupid. Mostly the HOW. By even cutting the journey short by ten years and giving the crew back ten years of confinement on a warship.


Warship...what warship? If you meant VOY, that was a science ship. Not to mention, it seems that YOU are missing the point of the episode. Irony...

Harry Kim, of all people, point out that it was never about getting home/the destination. It was about the friendships, the family, and the unity made. The JOURNEY together. VOY was HOME for them. That was what the idiot Admiral realized in the end. She didn't do them any favors by screwing up the next decade together. They weren't unhappy, because they had each other through thick and thin. That was the POINT. A much better point then just being sad nature took Seven/Chakotay/Tuvok's mind.

milan wrote:
Really bad way of saving your friends. Oh, she ended up destroying or setting back the most dangerous enemies of all the creatures in the Universe, too... Booo! Definitely unacceptable.


Yep, unacceptable.

As pointed above, she didn't save them from anything.

As for the other captains, Janeway set a dangerous precedent with what she did. Now, others might think it's completely acceptable to go back in time to save lost loved ones. This would completely screw up time and there are reasons that the temporal prime directive are in place. Janeway should have done what 8 year old kids who lose their pet dog do-come to grips with death.

milan wrote:
My analogy with Luke makes 100% sense, thank you very much. If not, go take up your cause with the lawyers who dealt with World War criminals. The soldiers who fight under a commander are not criminals. If the deed is evil, the commander is at fault. The soldiers are following orders, if they don't obey they are courtmartialled and executed. Great choice.


If they don't obey orders they are executed!? WTF are you talking about? I'm going to guess you're not talking about modern day militaries and the Empire's military?

Yes...except soldiers have the option of leaving the service if they view orders to be questionable or in violating of the oaths they have sworn to take.

milan wrote:
And they have families at home whom they are responsible for too. Just like the people on the Death Star had them. Families who deeply mourned their loss.


Yes and Luke could say "cry me a river over your loss. Your "loved ones" were assisting on committing genocide." If they had families at home, families they wanted to protect, perhaps they should have thought twice on being a crewmen on the Death Star when a rebellion was going on?

milan wrote:
But you could make an appeal to the High Court of Justice and execute a million World War veterans, I guess...


This makes 0 sense. Why would I want to execute any WW veterans? I just said that what Luke did was right, just like what WW veterans did was right. They had to fight against an enemy that was bent on genocide!

This analogy does in fact make no sense at all. What you're trying to do is hide Janeway behind REAL heroes that did questionable things and say that they are one in the same.

When Obi-Wan killed Maul, when Neo killed Bane (Smith), when Aragorn slay the Uruk-Hai, when any hero kills a villain (or multiple villains). It maybe murder, but at least they're fighting villains that are threatning others.

Janeway did no such thing in this episode and you're trying to twist it to make it seem like she did.

milan wrote:
Plus, again, you say Janeway "screwed up time for some buddies." That's also point of view, not fact.


That is a fact...because that is what the episode is about! She went back in time to save a select few and in doing so, altered the future. I know you like to think that her altering the future did ONLY great and magical, wonderous things. That isn't how it works at all.

There is a reason Janeway kept it a secret from everyone what she was going to do. Torres, Paris, and the Doctor would have had her locked up.

milan wrote:
Fact is she ALTERED time. Your point of view is she screwed it up, my point of view is she improved it. These kinds of statements from you don't tip the scales to anyone's favour. Let's try to focus on the topic.


Are you kidding me? I'm the one that IS on topic. You're the one going on rants on how Janeway can do no wrong. This topic is about "what controversial decisions did Janeway make?" If anyone is off-topic, it is you...

milan wrote:
And finally you drive the dagger into your own heart: "the real tragedy of Endgame was that the show could do better and it didn't." "The finale was NOT a good episode" So our debate finally surfaced your real problem: it's not Janeway, that she's evil or cold, etc. It's that you didn't like the plots/plot. I suggest we take this debate to the "Endgame" thread then maybe.


*sigh*!!! "Endgame" sucked BECAUSE of what Janeway did (amongst other minor things). Not to mention, I started off by BEING ON TOPIC and saying that what Janeway did was wrong and controversial.

milan wrote:
As to the deleting the doctor's memories in that episode, again: helloo!!! Missing the point!!! That episode was EXACTLY about the fact that YES, even Janeway makes mistakes! As Seven points out to her: I considered you a role model. Now I don't know anymore. And in the end Janeway did realise and correct her own mistake. That's what is called an evolving character, a much deeper and thoroughly written character than the traditional flat character. So yes, STV was a great show from many points of view


Wow...you admitted Janeway makes mistakes. Right now, the universe is imploding in on itself.

Yes, this episode shows the error of Janeway's ways. Notice how she did not reach the conclusion herself, but had to have her CREW inform her on what she is doing was wrong. She always had to be shown the error of her ways, rarely realizing that what she was doing was wrong. She was like a child. She even called the Doctor a "replicator" in that episode. I guess we need Chakotay/Seven/Kes to inform her that he's a person and should be treated as such. Otherwise, we'd see how she'd REALLY treat him.

To add to the topic...since others aren't....

Janeway in Unimatrix Zero, used the Borg who were 'free' in Unimatrix Zero as cannon fodder in her personal war against the Borg Queen. The Borg Queen even says as much in the episode...


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milan
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 263
Location: Romania

PostThu May 07, 2009 8:38 am    

WHat's the matter? your arguments are getting weaker and weaker. That the crew members helped? So now instead of saying Janeway nothing good you're trying to prove the crew members helped Janeway in her good deeds. And here's to missing my points (now I have to conclude you're doing it deliberately since you have no more sound arguments):
B'elanna did the job in Juggernaught... but Janeway issued the COMMAND for a rescue operation. This was an example of Janeway giving the commands to do good in vain you try your usual twists. Macroviruses: the Doctor helped... here's that word again, of confession: HELPED! So you do realize Janeway did the main part.

As for not even knowing if the episodes mentioned by me are even true, well finally a written confession: you have no idea what STV is all about, you're just spreading cheap slander. I dunno why I even go on with this unequal debate, if not for a few laughs.

I won't even get into your Endgame and LOTR "arguments" until you find some sound ones, not comparing details. Next time it will be: "Janeway had a phaser, Frodo had a crappy knife." You cannot see the basis of my comparisons. Fine, don't "dumb" yourself down to see the meaning, remain on the surface of things.

Plus you don't take the conversation anywhere. You keep coming back to your argument that Voyager or the crew did something, not Janeway, when I have already proven with arguments that you can't separate the two from each other. It's as if saying the crew slapped Janeway ofer the head and said: "look, woman, we'll do this our way, you just stay out of it!"

Then you go on listing other powerless arguments about the Borg Queen assimilating info...the Borg Queen died!! And as the story ends, all the Borg with her! Of course they will resurrect them in the other Star Trek shows because they need them, the fans demand, the writers offer. But that is completely different from this story. For ex. Alien 2: the movie ends with Ripley escaping with Newt, success, mother saves adopted daughter. Alien 3 starts with Newt being dead, alien crawls out of her. It's because they had to continue the story somehow. That does not take away the success story of Alien 2, no one will say "oh *beep*, Ripley, what an idiot!"

You are in no position to say what I should or should not do as a Janeway fan.

As to there being more intelligent ways of doing something in a story: there always are. There is no story in the known world that will not take any more improvement. But that doesn't stop them from being good stories.

I'm beating a dead horse because you keep coming back to it. The same arguments deserve the same responses. It would not be fair that you should come up with the same argument in 5 posts and I would have to counter them every time in different ways. You keep coming back for the dozenth time to your argument that she destroyed the future, forcing me to repeat my counterarguments.

The example with Seven and Neelix was ironical.

I still uphold my claim: you didn't understand Janeway's character. I haven't heard anything that would show otherwise. That the crew did good and she did not, when she is the CAPTAIN is ridiculous, so is the Caretaker example: the life of a race against one hundred odd people... how can somebody say Janeway's decision was a bad one and still think of themselves as a good person?

You're flogging your dead horse yet again in the Connor argument completed with the idea of genocide. In Connor's case: preserving the future is good, altering it is not. We're back to 3 posts before: you bottom lining that altering time is bad, period. Let's go back to dumping the time treavel books into the river, guys! As to the Borg: YOu first say the Borg did survive. Then that Janeway committed genocide. Make up your mind. Then make up your mind if committing genocide on the Borg was an evil deed, in the light of saving countless civilisations, and if you say it was, the debate ends here, since clearly our scales of value are incompatible, thus making any debate futile.
You're trying to tangle me into the details again because you can't debate my point. That Janeway was not in a rag-tag resistance and the sort... we're back to Janeway haveing a phaser and Frodo sticking a rusty knife into ork asses.

Why do you naaaag with the same argument of Janeway being bored and going back to save her CHOSEN FEW? What is bad in saving 3 friends? Are you jealous of somebody actually doing something for her friends? If she had saved her crew you would be crying to the Heavens why Janeway didn't have a kid with Q and demand in return the resurrection of Mahatma Ghandi and Sir Francis Drake. This demanding back former crew members is pretty funny from a guy who first asserts that Janeway was bad for meddling even with Tuvix and bringing back two former crew members who "died". But contradicting yourself is a way of life to you.

I suggest we open another topic, because this has nothing to do with Janeway. The topic: is altering the future good or bad in general? Beacuse if we take away all the fluff this is what we remain with.

Ok..I got to this point of your letter and now I will stop... It's clear now I'm dealing with an amateur and it's not worth my while... Voyager... a science ship?? Ok, let me quote the Star Trek designers on this, the people who actually made the ship what it is, if you want to you can check it out word by word on youtube: "Inside Voyager" part 2 of 6. "It will be a newer model, much more action-oriented ship, it's a definite military ship, as opposed to an exploration vessel, there won't be families on board and it will have a sleeker, more aggressive look than the Enterprise". What do you think, they will send a science vessel to capture a Maquis ship? If anything, you should thank Janeway for trying to be more humane: "We are scientists, explorers" - she states many times. So the evil witch has actually turned the ship from its original purpose of wreaking havoc on everything they point it at, which is the objective of a regular warship. You have clearly not been paying much attention to anything else other than the fact that you should hate Janeway.

Plus you should brush up on wartime military rules and Second World War history before writing anything down on the topic. Missing the point again: you should execute WW2 veterans because you said the Death Star soldiers were murderers and they deserved to die. THe WW2 veterans are in the same position: they slaughtered innocent villages and raped their women, you know, war-stuff... How much more monosyllabic do I have to get to get my message across?

As for Unimatrix Zero you comfortably forget that Janeway put her own life on the line and fought (personally, with a Klingon weapon too, if I remember correctly) for those people.

Anyway, I've seen many of you guys said it was too bad Voyager did not have parts with a parallel universe. Well, now it does: the Voyager SCIENCE VESSEL with the evil captain and the crew which survives in spite of her! Well, if nothing else, this IS an interesting new storyline to the series. Maybe we could organize a role playing game on it!


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Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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PostThu May 07, 2009 1:18 pm    

Aw, just when debating got fun, you had to resort to personal attacks. It's a shame, because you started out as a decent debater. Oh well...

milan wrote:
WHat's the matter? your arguments are getting weaker and weaker.


Hardly, buddy.

milan wrote:
That the crew members helped? So now instead of saying Janeway nothing good you're trying to prove the crew members helped Janeway in her good deeds.


Read what I wrote again. I was using sarcasm by saying they "helped".

Did you not see my "footnote" comment for the doctor "helping" on Macrocasm? The Doctor saved the day in that episode, not Janeway. I was using sarcasm (which was not caught???) to show that his heroic actions were nothing more then a footnote to you, because you can't see past how "Awesome!!!" Janeway is.

The crew did not just "help", they actually saved the day. I was pointing out how you glorified Janeway's actions, but ignored their actions. Without them, these deeds you keep saying Janeway does would not have been done at all. (For example, destroying Annorax's ship?)

milan wrote:
And here's to missing my points (now I have to conclude you're doing it deliberately since you have no more sound arguments):


lol!

milan wrote:
B'elanna did the job in Juggernaught... but Janeway issued the COMMAND for a rescue operation. This was an example of Janeway giving the commands to do good in vain you try your usual twists.


She issued the command? Are you kidding me. Torres is not the commanding officer. She can't get up and leave on missions. You're pinning a medal on Janeway for doing her job? Are you kidding me?

By this logic, when an admiral sends the Enterprise on a mission to save the day. THEY should recieve the glory for a success because THEY gave the orders to do the mission. Give me a break.

milan wrote:
Macroviruses: the Doctor helped... here's that word again, of confession: HELPED! So you do realize Janeway did the main part.


Is this a joke?

The definition of Sarcasm from Online Dictionary

mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual

Go back and read what I said about the Doctor's actions in Macrocasm. I was not admitting he was a "helper". I was being SARCASTIC, thus my footnote comment. My goodness, man.

milan wrote:
As for not even knowing if the episodes mentioned by me are even true, well finally a written confession: you have no idea what STV is all about, you're just spreading cheap slander. I dunno why I even go on with this unequal debate, if not for a few laughs.


Lol! You're the one that didn't even know what Juggernaught was about. You're the one that didn't know that Janeway "blew up the ship" (she didn't. No ship blew up by VOY in that episode. It fell into the sun). You even had Janeway save the day and it was Torres. I would hardly accuse people of not knowing what VOY episodes are about when you do something like that.

Stop twisting my words. I said that I don't know if the episodes are true as the way you described them, thus my "after seeing through your last example" comment. I'm not sure if you're memory is bad or you're embelishing (thus talking about Janeway's nonexistant actions in Juggernaught). I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say it's just that maybe your memory of these episodes aren't there?

milan wrote:
I won't even get into your Endgame and LOTR "arguments" until you find some sound ones, not comparing details. Next time it will be: "Janeway had a phaser, Frodo had a crappy knife." You cannot see the basis of my comparisons. Fine, don't "dumb" yourself down to see the meaning, remain on the surface of things.


I didn't "compare details" YOU did that.

What is it about the LOTR comparison (that YOU brought up) did you not understand?

milan wrote:
Plus you don't take the conversation anywhere. You keep coming back to your argument that Voyager or the crew did something, not Janeway, when I have already proven with arguments that you can't separate the two from each other.


Don't you think it's ironic that you're saying that? You started off by saying Janeway did this! Janeway did that! Why is it that she can be seperated, but the crew can't be seperated from her? Why can't Chakotay save the day without you yelling that if it wasn't for Janeway, he wouldn't have done it?

I don't take the conversation anywhere? Um...I don't bring up useless analogies of Death Stars, Terminators, and Hobbits do I? I was actually sticking to the topic from day 1.

When Odo ended the War on DS9, I don't say that he did it because SISKO allowed him to beam down and cure the sick Founder.

When Spock saves the day on TOS, I don't say that Kirk is to be thanked becaused he gave the orders.

The crews heroics CAN be seperated from Janeway. Besides, she was not there in every bad situation. How can you possible ascribe every thing they did to her?

milan wrote:
It's as if saying the crew slapped Janeway ofer the head and said: "look, woman, we'll do this our way, you just stay out of it!"


Hah. Funny. Cause you do the exact opposite. You make it sounds like the VOY crew were just standing around, doing nothing until Janeway kicked into action and made them save the day. Do you not see the hypocrisy in your argument?

milan wrote:
Then you go on listing other powerless arguments about the Borg Queen assimilating info...the Borg Queen died!!


Powerless? My argument uses examples from the show.

It doesn't matter if she died. She died three times before and came back. As soon as the information goes into one Borg, it goes into the Entire Collective. They're connected as a hive mind. Did YOU even watch the show?

milan wrote:
And as the story ends, all the Borg with her! Of course they will resurrect them in the other Star Trek shows because they need them, the fans demand, the writers offer. But that is completely different from this story. For ex. Alien 2: the movie ends with Ripley escaping with Newt, success, mother saves adopted daughter. Alien 3 starts with Newt being dead, alien crawls out of her. It's because they had to continue the story somehow. That does not take away the success story of Alien 2, no one will say "oh *beep*, Ripley, what an idiot!"


If they ressurect them....then they didn't end now did they? They may have been set back in that episode, but that isn't their end. Why are VOY fans so desperate to credit Janeway with the destruction of the Borg? BTW? One of the key figures of the franchise says the Borg is not dead from these events. It's in Memory Alpha.

milan wrote:
You are in no position to say what I should or should not do as a Janeway fan.


Ok?

milan wrote:
As to there being more intelligent ways of doing something in a story: there always are. There is no story in the known world that will not take any more improvement. But that doesn't stop them from being good stories.


Yes, I suppose all stories have room for improvement, but then again some stories are flat out BAD and NEED improvement. "Endgame" did not deal with any issues that Trek normally does. It just has pretty explosions, time travel, and the Borg! Sorry, but I need more then that with my Trek.

It works for you though. So that is a good thing.

milan wrote:
I'm beating a dead horse because you keep coming back to it. The same arguments deserve the same responses. It would not be fair that you should come up with the same argument in 5 posts and I would have to counter them every time in different ways. You keep coming back for the dozenth time to your argument that she destroyed the future, forcing me to repeat my counterarguments.


I'm not repeating arguments. YOU are. I started my post ON TOPIC and you're the one that wanted to know just how is it her decision in "Endgame" was controversial/wrong/bad/etc.

milan wrote:
The example with Seven and Neelix was ironical.


Humerous...

milan wrote:
I still uphold my claim: you didn't understand Janeway's character. I haven't heard anything that would show otherwise.


Actually, me and two other people have stated she was a poor captain. I think we understood her very well. You have heard otherwise, you just don't like what you've heard. There's a difference.

milan wrote:
That the crew did good and she did not, when she is the CAPTAIN is ridiculous, so is the Caretaker example: the life of a race against one hundred odd people... how can somebody say Janeway's decision was a bad one and still think of themselves as a good person?


So...since she is captain she gets the credit right? Any good she did (which was often at the behest of her crew (Latent Image, Scorpion, Equinox, etc) does not outweigh the bad.

Well, it's easy how a person can say they're a good person: SHES NOT REAL. Also, she would later on feel guilt over these actions, which stranded her crew. Even SHE realizes that maybe destroying the Array was not the best choice. Not to mention, the overly popular plot hole of simply using a timed torpedo to destroy the Array AND get back home? Not to mention, she violated the Prime Directive by getting involved and shifting the balance of power. Picard and Archer, in episodes of TNG and ENT, chose to uphold the PD then to play god. Then again, Janeway is divine right? She can play god if she wants.

milan wrote:
You're flogging your dead horse yet again in the Connor argument completed with the idea of genocide. In Connor's case: preserving the future is good, altering it is not. We're back to 3 posts before: you bottom lining that altering time is bad, period. Let's go back to dumping the time treavel books into the river, guys!


This makes 0 sense. John Connor sent the Terminator back in time to protect himself as Terminators were being sent back in time to kill him. If he died, the resistance would die and Mankind would be wiped out. He was preserving the future (or trying to at least). Janeway was not doing this at all...

milan wrote:
As to the Borg: YOu first say the Borg did survive. Then that Janeway committed genocide. Make up your mind.


Ok, ARE you twisting my words on purpose or are you unable to understand what I'm writing?

I never said Janeway committed genocide in the Terminator analogy, not once. YOU missed my point. My point was that Janeway did not go back in time to commit genocide against the Borg (Like Skynet did against Mankind), nor did she do it to save Mankind from death (Like Connor did). She did it to serve her own personal interests.

milan wrote:
Then make up your mind if committing genocide on the Borg was an evil deed, in the light of saving countless civilisations, and if you say it was, the debate ends here, since clearly our scales of value are incompatible, thus making any debate futile.


Committing genocide on the Borg would be like the debate on Deep Space 9. Was infecting the Founders the moral option to win the war? It would wipe them out, but set back the Dominion. Janeway did try to wipe out the Borg with a disease (only after she was convinced to do so (THIS WAS NOT HER ORIGINAL INTENTION)). If killing the Borg is right or wrong...well that's another debate.

I will point out that in TNG, Picard had the option to do just what Janeway did through a Borg Drone named Hugh. Dr. Crusher pointed out genocide was wrong, no matter who the enemy is. I guess the Enterprise crew would disagree with Janeway. Then again, who are they to argue with the amazing Janeway? Friggin flagship people.

milan wrote:
You're trying to tangle me into the details again because you can't debate my point. That Janeway was not in a rag-tag resistance and the sort... we're back to Janeway haveing a phaser and Frodo sticking a rusty knife into ork asses.


Orc*

milan wrote:
Why do you naaaag with the same argument of Janeway being bored and going back to save her CHOSEN FEW? What is bad in saving 3 friends?


It's only "naaaag"ing to you because you don't like it. And I "naaag" on this point, because YOU keep whining that I say her decision in Endgame is controversial.

I answered this question like ten times...

First of all, she set a dangerous precedent. What is to stop other people from going back in time to save their lost loved ones? Janeway needs to learn to deal with death.

Second of all, she altered people's future to save them. Who is SHE to decide that she can do that? The problem was that Janeway decided their lives are lot more important then everyone elses.

milan wrote:
Are you jealous of somebody actually doing something for her friends?


! Yes, I'm jealous. You got me. I've never had a friend help me out. Ever. So I take out my anger on a fictional character. Wow, your skills of deduction are amazing. (see: sarcasm)

milan wrote:
If she had saved her crew you would be crying to the Heavens why Janeway didn't have a kid with Q and demand in return the resurrection of Mahatma Ghandi and Sir Francis Drake.


What...the....

milan wrote:
This demanding back former crew members is pretty funny from a guy who first asserts that Janeway was bad for meddling even with Tuvix and bringing back two former crew members who "died". But contradicting yourself is a way of life to you.


That isn't a contradiction. If Janeway was going to be an idiot and save those she loved, why didn't she go back in time and save EVERYONE? Her saving only a few and leaving the others to their fate shows that she never cared for the VOY "family".

Not to mention, I said I think her entire plan (Saving a few or saving all) is STUPID. However, if she HAS to do her dumb plan, surely she could save everyone or are those three more important???

milan wrote:
I suggest we open another topic, because this has nothing to do with Janeway. The topic: is altering the future good or bad in general? Beacuse if we take away all the fluff this is what we remain with.


No, that's just what you reduced it to. The topic was What was Janeway's most controversial decisions? Endgame is one of them. Just because you think she can do no wrong/never did a controversial decision is meaningless. The topic is about Janeway and you twisted it into something completely different.

milan wrote:
Ok..I got to this point of your letter and now I will stop... It's clear now I'm dealing with an amateur and it's not worth my while...


But you didn't stop, did you? You keep saying I'm not worth your while and that you self proclaim yourself as the winner. Well...why do you keep debating? Oh yes, for humor...

milan wrote:
Voyager... a science ship?? Ok, let me quote the Star Trek designers on this, the people who actually made the ship what it is, if you want to you can check it out word by word on youtube: "Inside Voyager" part 2 of 6. "It will be a newer model, much more action-oriented ship, it's a definite military ship, as opposed to an exploration vessel, there won't be families on board and it will have a sleeker, more aggressive look than the Enterprise". What do you think, they will send a science vessel to capture a Maquis ship?


Memory Alpha, a source that uses only canon material, never refer to it as "military ship". They sent VOY after the Maquis because it is the fastest in the fleet (At the time)? Not because it is the strongest ship in the fleet. If that was the case, they'd send the Defiant after it.

You would think a "military ship" would actually have weapons. It doesn't even have quantum torpedoes. It was even under stocked in weaponry. Some warship...

milan wrote:
If anything, you should thank Janeway for trying to be more humane: "We are scientists, explorers" - she states many times. So the evil witch has actually turned the ship from its original purpose of wreaking havoc on everything they point it at, which is the objective of a regular warship. You have clearly not been paying much attention to anything else other than the fact that you should hate Janeway.


The original purpose was to wreak havoc...? Huh...

milan wrote:
Plus you should brush up on wartime military rules and Second World War history before writing anything down on the topic. Missing the point again: you should execute WW2 veterans because you said the Death Star soldiers were murderers and they deserved to die. THe WW2 veterans are in the same position: they slaughtered innocent villages and raped their women, you know, war-stuff... How much more monosyllabic do I have to get to get my message across?


So you're comparing atrocities that SOME soldiers, who did not have actual orders from above to kills innocents and rape women (they did this themselves, not because of policy declared by government), to fictional characters who DID have orders and acknowledged those orders to blow up planets and murder billions. And did nothing to resist those orders...

Wow....

milan wrote:
As for Unimatrix Zero you comfortably forget that Janeway put her own life on the line and fought (personally, with a Klingon weapon too, if I remember correctly) for those people.


Good job, Janeway! Who cares that you wanted to use them as canon fodder. You beat up Borg with weapons! Yeah!

milan wrote:
Anyway, I've seen many of you guys said it was too bad Voyager did not have parts with a parallel universe. Well, now it does: the Voyager SCIENCE VESSEL with the evil captain and the crew which survives in spite of her! Well, if nothing else, this IS an interesting new storyline to the series. Maybe we could organize a role playing game on it!


Too bad you have reduced yourself to personal attacks in your debates. You started off "classy", as I believe I called you. Such a shame...

Personally, I've enjoyed debating with you. I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye, but at least it's fun. Maybe it seems frustrating or not "worth your time" to you. For what it's worth? I think the debate has been pretty good.

BACK ON TOPIC...

This one often goes unnoticed, but I think Janeway's choice to become admiral was screwed up/controversial. She chose a desk job on Earth and left her VOY "Family" behind. Didn't they just spend 7 years talking about how the family and the journey is important? I guess not... She chose to jump ship at the first chance...

Kirk told Picard never to let Command take them from the bridge of the ship, because as long as one is there....they can make a difference. Too bad Kirk never ran into Janeway and gave her that advice...

Maybe that's why on every Trek forum I've been to there is always an anti-Janeway thread, but never one on Kirk/Picard/Sisko.


Last edited by Founder on Thu May 07, 2009 10:39 pm; edited 2 times in total


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Warpcore74
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PostThu May 07, 2009 1:23 pm    

Founder you're hard work... Yes by going into the past Janeway costs the 'future' of millions of lives.. Whoopidoo. So what? Like Milan has put to you: how about the millions of lives she's saved from the Borgs? It 's one thing to say I dont' agree with that decision. It's quite another to say 'She is evil' like you've been ranting. � Oh but what about all those people she would have saved by staying in the Delta Quadrant� ? Again where are you going with this? Nowhere and at warp 9.4 at that.. I mean think about what you�re saying for a nano second. Do you really expect Janeway to make a moral decision on events she has absolutely no idea will ever happen or not. Consider Voyager arriving to that worm hole in Endgame and , for argument sake, let�s assume it hadn�t turn into the Borg�s Central Park and was free to access. Would you expect Janeway to say �Ok, guys, don't rub your hands so fast I know we can get home with the next half hour but I cant allow us to go through it and let down those hundreds even thousands of people my 7 years of past experience tells me we are going to help�.�

Chakotay: �Oh yes Captain that makes perfect sense. Paris, turn around. Actually, Captain let�s forget about getting home and spend the rest of our lives roaming this quadrant helping the down trodden��

Janeway: �Great idea.. '


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Founder
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PostThu May 07, 2009 1:52 pm    

Warpcore74 wrote:
Founder you're hard work...


I'll take that as a compliment. Thank you.

Warpcore74 wrote:
Yes by going into the past Janeway costs the 'future' of millions of lives.. Whoopidoo. So what?


Yeah! Who cares if Janeway changes the future of people's lives. She's Janeway! Why does the Temporal Prime Directive exist? Janeway says it's dumb, so it is! Why did the 29th century Starfleet tell Janeway she time travels too much and needs to stop? Who cares! What do they know right? Janeway can do no wrong.

Warpcore74 wrote:
Like Milan has put to you: how about the millions of lives she's saved from the Borgs?


It's a matter of debate isn't it? As I pointed out above, Picard has the same option to do what Janeway did, but didn't. I'm going to guess Picard is an idiot, right?

By your logic, Sisko should use the Wormhole to go back in time to destroy the Dominion before the War. He'd be saving millions of lives wouldn't he? Why doesn't Picard go back in time and prevent Wolf 359? Why? Why? Why? Because it's cheap writing, that's why. It's a cheap deus ex machina. People died? Don't worry about it. Just go back in time and prevent it from happening in the first place. Oh wait, they didn't do that in any of the other shows because it's cheap writing.

Warpcore74 wrote:
It 's one thing to say I dont' agree with that decision. It's quite another to say 'She is evil' like you've been ranting. �


Um....I didn't say she's evil from this ONE decision. She did many bad/stupid things throughout the show's run. Again, there is a reason this topic exists...to point out what she did that is controversial...

Warpcore74 wrote:
Oh but what about all those people she would have saved by staying in the Delta Quadrant� ? Again where are you going with this? Nowhere and at warp 9.4 at that..


Where am I going with this...let's see...

Throughout 7 years (of the show), VOY affected many races/people in the Delta Quadrant. They made alliances, they broke alliances. They saved people, while fighting the villain. Are you telling me that in the next decade(s) of being there, they would cease to do this? And I didn't say SHE would have saved, I said the VOY crew. What is it with you two and pretending she's the only crewman on that ship?

Imagine if Admiral Janeway went back in time and prevented them from going into the Delta Quadrant.

The Maquis would have been arrested. Seven (Icheb and the other Borg Children) never would have been saved. Kes would be a slave to the Kazon. The Doctor never would have gained sentience. That is just things they accomplished with the crew themselves.

What about the other things the ship (and crew) goes on to accomplish? Meaningless now.

Warpcore74 wrote:
I mean think about what you�re saying for a nano second. Do you really expect Janeway to make a moral decision on events she has absolutely no idea will ever happen or not.


Nope, she shouldn't be expected to. Which is why Admiral Janeway never should have put her in that position.

Warpcore74 wrote:
Consider Voyager arriving to that worm hole in Endgame and , for argument sake, let�s assume it hadn�t turn into the Borg�s Central Park and was free to access. Would you expect Janeway to say �Ok, guys, don't rub your hands so fast I know we can get home with the next half hour but I cant allow us to go through it and let down those hundreds even thousands of people my 7 years of past experience tells me we are going to help�.�

Chakotay: �Oh yes Captain that makes perfect sense. Paris, turn around. Actually, Captain let�s forget about getting home and spend the rest of our lives roaming this quadrant helping the down trodden��

Janeway: �Great idea.. '


The fact that Borg were there DID make it controversial and important. If the Borg weren't there, then in the original timeline Janeway would have said "go into the wormhole...time to go home..." Not, "ignore the nebula. It's swarming with Borg. We have to press on the old fashioned way."

Captain Janeway didn't have an easy, open chance to get home and did not take it because she wanted to help the "down trodden..." as you say. She would make it home, but with some more deaths. Admiral Janeway was bitter about that and told them to go home early, everyone else be damned. Well...things were tough before and other people died. Why is it that she didn't go back to prevent those events? If VOY made it home in Admiral Janeway's timeline, it seems like the VOY crew made it through all the future hard times (of course with the death of certain crewmen Janeway could not allow). That was the inherent flaw in this episode and thus, the controversial decision on her part.

Funny in your fake story you had Chakotay say that. That is pretty much what they did those 7 years. There is a reason the Doctor joked:

"Why pretend we're going home at all? All we're really going to do is investigate every cubic millimeter of this quadrant, aren't we?"


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Valathous
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PostFri May 08, 2009 1:23 am    

DITL.org wrote:
Class: Intrepid
Affiliation : Federation
Type : Light Explorer / Scout
Unit Run :
NCC 74705 USS Bellerophon - Active
NCC 746002 USS Intrepid - Active
NCC 74656 USS Voyager - Active
plus 47 others built in total. 15 have been lost in all. The class remains in production.
Commissioned : 23715 - present
Dimensions : Length : 343 m
Beam : 133 m
Height : 66 m
Decks : 15
Mass : 700,000 metric tons
Crew : 1414
Armament : 13 x Type VIII phaser arrays, total output 10,000 TeraWatts
5 x Standard photon torpedo tube with 38 rounds
Defence Systems : Standard shield system, total capacity 729,000 TeraJoules
Standard Duranium/Tritanium Single hull.
Standard level Structural Integrity Field
Warp Speeds
(TNG scale) : Normal Cruise : 8
Maximum Cruise : 9.975
Maximum Rated : 9.985 for 1 hours.
Strength Indices :
(Galaxy class = 1,000) Beam Firepower : 200
Torpedo Firepower : 625
Weapon Range and Accuracy : 440
Shield Strength : 270
Hull Armour : 50
Speed : 3,526
Combat Manoeuvrability : 9,100
Overall Strength Index : 591
Diplomatic Capability : 3
Expected Hull Life : 80
Refit Cycle : Minor : 1 year
Standard : 5 years
Major : 20 years


Voyager was a scout/science vessel, not a warship. End of story.

And as for your claim that soldiers following orders are not war criminals in your Luke Skywalker debate? 100% false. If you commit a war crime under the order of the superior you are GUILTY. It is your responsibility to refuse. Occasionally it is accepted in reducing a sentence but not acquitting them of their guilt.


Numerburg Trials wrote:
Principle I

Any person who commits an act which constitutes a crime under international law is responsible therefore and liable to punishment.

Principle IV

The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him. "I was following orders", is not an excuse.


I just figured I'd throw those in there.


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milan
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PostFri May 08, 2009 8:50 am    

This list does of things does not deny the fact that it's a MILITARY ship. Its class is light explorer/scout. For the MILITARY! Plus, even this "proof" proves me! It never says SCIENCE vessel, which Founder claimed it to be. It proves my point: military ship. Exploring and scouting, one of the basic military procedures. A warship doesn't only mean the greatest star-destroyer in the galaxy. And the word "science" appears nowhere, nor any scientific equipment, however it has an arsenal of phasers, torpedoes, and includes things as "combat manoeuvrability". Where does it list ANY scientific gizmos or the sort? Well, thank you for strenghtening my point, anyway, and do watch "Inside Voyager" made about and by the people who actually DESIGNED the show.
And the principles about war still doesn't disprove me saying if you disobeyed orders you were courtmartialled and shot. In the Second World War you can read about battles where the Nazi soldiers were retreating due to being heavily outnumbered, and in the back their superiors awaited with shotguns and shot on sight all soldiers who left the frontline. Plus even the Germans themselves tried to assassinate Hitler on various occasions. Most soldiers are still people, no matter whose side they were on. There were some estimates that 80% of the WW2 shots were in the air or at the legs... few people deliberately shot to kill. The "enemy" is never a thousand-headed monster rotten to the core. Why even Star Wars showed Empire soldiers who disagreed with the system, Biggs even deserted. But hey, let's kill them for the glory of Good.


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Valathous
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PostFri May 08, 2009 3:43 pm    

I'm sorry, but the way I see it, all you're claiming anytime anybody shows you something is that it strengthens your point and then you give some lame reason to twist words to suit your needs.

Nowhere on that list does it say that it's a warship. While most Starfleet vessels are armed due to the fact they're similar to a Navy, it does not mean it's a warship. Armies have vessels they use Scout regions that they wouldn't normally take into a combat situation. Are they used by the military? Debatable. That all depends on whether you view Starfleet are strictly a military organization, or if it's a exploration organization that has adapted itself for self-defense. Are they 'warships'? No. Apparently your definition of a warship is severely skewed. It's half the strength of a most older Galaxy class ship. Either way though, there is a presupposition that Starfleet vessels are partly military as you claim, but the purposes of those vessels differ, such as the Intrepid's purpose of being a science/scout vessel.

And technically, they're all exploration ships as Starfleet was created for the exploration of space and seeking out new life and new civilizations, and for examining new phenomena. The reason ships are armed is self-defense. And look?! I can throw big grinning smiley faces in my post to look arrogant and superior, too!

And are for the Skywalker argument again; I was never debating the morality of your claim, only the legitimacy of it. Irregardless of how the families would have felt, you said it was an excuse in international law. Well, it isn't, and that's all I set out to accomplish there, which I succeeded.


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milan
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PostSat May 09, 2009 7:05 am    

I respect your knowledge in international law. I don't wanna get into a debate of that kind, I was giving these arguments only to show that Luke can be viewed as a mass murderer too. We were debating if Janeway was an evil person or not. I would like to keep the debate on course.
As for Voyager being a military ship or science vessel, unfortunately none of you can win that battle, because I am right, it's that simple. And I have given you the unimpeachable proof, quoted, from "Inside Voyager" part 2 of 6, it can be viewed on Youtube. When the show designers say something is so because they made it so, all debate on the topic, or to put it more poetically, "resistance" is futile. If God made the sky blue, it's pointless to argue that it is red.

And now let me throw in MY own grinning smiley faces again that will now make ME look arrogant and superior, I even have a sentence that will certainly make me the ruler of the Universe, here it goes: Good luck building your Parralel Universe of Voyager, I will retreat from the debate with the due apologies, since obviously I wasn't aware that you guys here were building that. How's that?


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Valathous
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PostSat May 09, 2009 7:07 pm    

milan wrote:
I respect your knowledge in international law. I don't wanna get into a debate of that kind, I was giving these arguments only to show that Luke can be viewed as a mass murderer too. We were debating if Janeway was an evil person or not. I would like to keep the debate on course.
As for Voyager being a military ship or science vessel, unfortunately none of you can win that battle, because I am right, it's that simple. And I have given you the unimpeachable proof, quoted, from "Inside Voyager" part 2 of 6, it can be viewed on Youtube. When the show designers say something is so because they made it so, all debate on the topic, or to put it more poetically, "resistance" is futile. If God made the sky blue, it's pointless to argue that it is red.

And now let me throw in MY own grinning smiley faces again that will now make ME look arrogant and superior, I even have a sentence that will certainly make me the ruler of the Universe, here it goes: Good luck building your Parralel Universe of Voyager, I will retreat from the debate with the due apologies, since obviously I wasn't aware that you guys here were building that. How's that?


Actually, the sky isn't blue, nor is it red, nor did anyone make it anything. The sky is clear. The colour is the reflection of the atmosphere off the ozone layer, .

Irregardless of what the designers may or may not have wanted, the script is what is cannon, not a youtube video. And in the script it is mentioned to be a scout/science vessel, not a warship. The warships in Starfleet are the Sovereign class, Prometheus class, Galaxy class, Akira class, and Defiant class, not the Intrepid.

Apparently you didn't understand the sarcasm behind the smiley comment of mine. And no, we're not building any parallel Voyager universe, simply trying to rectify your conception of it.

Anyways, to steer a little more back on topic - Janeway's a hypocrite. For someone who preached following the Prime Directive as staunchly as her, I don't believe any captain broke it as much as her. The Ocampa were pre-warp society. So essentially interfering with the Caretaker array and the Kazon issues right off the bat showed her willingness to break the Prime Directive.


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Thomas
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PostSun May 10, 2009 2:29 pm    

Firstly, Dan, please stop saying "irregardless," I agree that it'd be nice for the debate to continue minus the little jibes, so I encourage milan to continue, but please try to be a bit more respectful. Some nice points have been raised, but yeah, I think some of the other things that have been mentioned are based on some shaky circular logic. One other thing that bugged me, Founder, is what you said about the episode Juggernaut. B'Elanna was the one who saved the day aboard the Malon ship, yes; but that's not what saved all the people that the exploding ship would've killed. It was Voyager using their tractor beam to propel the Malon ship into the star (where it did explode) that ultimately "saved the day" and although I'm not entirely sure, I think it was Janeway who came up with that plan, They realised that B'Elanna and the rest of the away team might not reach the command centre in time, so they came up with another plan and had to use it. B'Elanna taking on the deformed Malon at the end meant that she saved Neelix's life and her own (and anyone else who was still on the Malon ship - I don't recall), but she didn't stop the explosion from having catastrophic consequences. That was Janeway and the crew on Voyager. I believe Tuvok and Seven were particularly vital to their plan's success.

Valathous wrote:
Anyways, to steer a little more back on topic - Janeway's a hypocrite. For someone who preached following the Prime Directive as staunchly as her, I don't believe any captain broke it as much as her. The Ocampa were pre-warp society. So essentially interfering with the Caretaker array and the Kazon issues right off the bat showed her willingness to break the Prime Directive.


I don't believe it was ever stated that the Ocampa were pre-warp. They had become dependent on the Caretaker and (most of them) had no interest in changing their situation, but that doesn't mean that they'd never had that kind of advanced technology. And even if they didn't specifically have warp drive, they clearly knew about other species. As well as the Caretaker and the Kazon, they spoke of the members of other alien races that the Caretaker had sent to them to be looked after. Also, the prime directive speaks of not interfering with them, but surely not of refusing to interfere in order to protect them from other malevolent species? I really do believe, as well, that Voyager was involved in the situation. The Caretaker intended to destroy the array, and his self-destruct program was inadvertently damaged by the battle between Voyager and the Kazon. Then, the Caretaker pleaded with Janeway to make sure the array was destroyed. Voyager would've struggled to defeat the Kazon, so they didn't have a chance of tinkering with the array for several hours and then leaving a bomb to destroy it. Their only chance of making sure that the Caretaker's wishes were carried out and that the Ocampa were safe was to destroy the array then and there. I often think it's easy for us to see this as a stupid decision, stranding the crew far from home, because we don't quite have 24th Century ideals. Yeah, there are good people today, but I think a lot of us would gladly forget about the Ocampa because... we don't really care. Our crew would be more important. But that's not how Humans think in the 24th Century - especially those in Starfleet - and they'd help others in need without a second thought for themselves. I would say that most of the Starfleet crew would gladly have given their lives to protect the Ocampa, because that's the kind of thing they believed in. Although it was a hard choice for Janeway to make, she knew it was the right one.



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Curtis
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PostSun May 10, 2009 10:58 pm    

Valathous wrote:
Actually, the sky isn't blue, nor is it red, nor did anyone make it anything. The sky is clear. The colour is the reflection of the atmosphere off the ozone layer, .


I agree...mostly...if technicalities are what we are getting at...is not the sky actually black (the void of space) then and it just appears as blue because of the reflection of the atmosphere on the ozone layer...so if there were no ozone layer or atmosphere (sure we wouldn't be here,) wouldn't that make the sky black technically???


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Founder
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PostMon May 11, 2009 12:50 am    

Thomas wrote:
One other thing that bugged me, Founder, is what you said about the episode Juggernaut. B'Elanna was the one who saved the day aboard the Malon ship, yes; but that's not what saved all the people that the exploding ship would've killed. It was Voyager using their tractor beam to propel the Malon ship into the star (where it did explode) that ultimately "saved the day" and although I'm not entirely sure, I think it was Janeway who came up with that plan, They realised that B'Elanna and the rest of the away team might not reach the command centre in time, so they came up with another plan and had to use it. B'Elanna taking on the deformed Malon at the end meant that she saved Neelix's life and her own (and anyone else who was still on the Malon ship - I don't recall), but she didn't stop the explosion from having catastrophic consequences. That was Janeway and the crew on Voyager. I believe Tuvok and Seven were particularly vital to their plan's success.


This was the same logic I was arguing against in the debate with milan. You yourself even admitted that Tuvok and Seven played intregral roles. That was more of a crew effort, rather then a Janeway and maybe everyone else as a footnote effort no?

My complaint with milan's argument was that in an attempt to show that Janeway was "awesome!!!!", milan picked out random episodes where the others were the hero and somehow ascribed all/most credit to Janeway.

That episode was a Torres episode. It was about her, with the other characters in the backround. That was my point. milan took a Torres-centric episode to prove how much of a hero Janeway was. The VOY crew stopped the threat of the Malon freighter in the end (this is true), with Torres learning her Klingon side was part of her strength (how many times does she learn this lesson on VOY BTW? ) Perhaps I shouldn't have made it seem like Torres saved the day alone (technically...she did save lives...), but again, I wasn't trying to point that out.

But the thing that irks me, and im sorry to say that you did it too (I put it in bold in your quote) (at least you were a lot more fair and admitted the others were vital ), is the whole "JANEWAY and the crew saved the day." What is the deal with giving Janeway 99.999999999% of the credit and the others virtually nothing? Why do some VOY fans do this (not accusing you, just some other fans I've debated with)? I'm a strong DS9 fan and I'm not like "Sisko saved the day with the others helping *grumble*."

I just don't get that.

Anyways, I hope I made it more clear where I was coming from in that part of my argument with milan?


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Thomas
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PostMon May 11, 2009 4:22 am    

Founder wrote:
This was the same logic I was arguing against in the debate with milan. You yourself even admitted that Tuvok and Seven played intregral roles. That was more of a crew effort, rather then a Janeway and maybe everyone else as a footnote effort no?


No, I don't think anyone's contribution should be marginalised. Sticking to the facts of what happened: Janeway and Tuvok discussed that they needed a Plan B if B'Elanna wasn't successful, and Janeway ordered Tuvok to begin work on a tractor beam plan. Tuvok and Seven worked on this plan. Then, when they were forced to, Janeway ordered Tuvok to use the tractor beam to alter the ship's trajectory. I believe that's how it happened, but feel free to point out anything which might be wrong. To recap: Janeway came up with the idea, Tuvok and Seven did all the technical wizardry, then Tuvok used his skills to make sure it worked in practice. That's credit where credit's due, IMO.

Founder wrote:
My complaint with milan's argument was that in an attempt to show that Janeway was "awesome!!!!", milan picked out random episodes where the others were the hero and somehow ascribed all/most credit to Janeway.


Yes, I see why you were annoyed.

Founder wrote:
That episode was a Torres episode. It was about her, with the other characters in the backround. That was my point. milan took a Torres-centric episode to prove how much of a hero Janeway was. The VOY crew stopped the threat of the Malon freighter in the end (this is true), with Torres learning her Klingon side was part of her strength (how many times does she learn this lesson on VOY BTW? ) Perhaps I shouldn't have made it seem like Torres saved the day alone (technically...she did save lives...), but again, I wasn't trying to point that out.


Yes, again, I see what you mean. She definitely saved Neelix's life, at least.

Founder wrote:
But the thing that irks me, and im sorry to say that you did it too (I put it in bold in your quote) (at least you were a lot more fair and admitted the others were vital ), is the whole "JANEWAY and the crew saved the day." What is the deal with giving Janeway 99.999999999% of the credit and the others virtually nothing? Why do some VOY fans do this (not accusing you, just some other fans I've debated with)? I'm a strong DS9 fan and I'm not like "Sisko saved the day with the others helping *grumble*."


The only reason I even included that line was for emphasis, I didn't mean to imply that Janeway deserved most of the credit. I just wanted to point out that she was very much involved (by coming up with the idea and ordering the other two - who then fleshed out all the details - to work on it).

Founder wrote:
I just don't get that.

Anyways, I hope I made it more clear where I was coming from in that part of my argument with milan?


Yeah, definitely, I just felt you had ignored the efforts of the crew on Voyager and wanted to point that out. I don't even think this episode is really a crucial example of anything, given that there don't appear to be any controversial decisions taking place.



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milan
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PostMon May 11, 2009 8:55 am    

Founder, we didn't say Janeway alone did that. I always pointed out it was Janeway and the crew, together, they cannot be separated, like crew=good, Janeway=bad. If Voyager does something good it's a joint effort. My point in mentioning Juggernaught wasn't to take away everyone else's credit, but to show that Janeway took part in it as well as the crew. She's always taking part in the Voyager actions, whether as the main character or only in a minor role, with few exceptions, when the story is solely about one or the other character. So She is doing good together with the crew, actually many times commanding the good deeds, that's why it seems so evil-intended... ok, too strong a word... let's say "annoying", that you try to twist the plain truth. I mean how can Janeway be evil when she's the captain of the ship which primarily does good throughout the series? The leader, man!! Look at Year of Hell... the captain alone was a maniac, the crew was essentially "normal", trying to fight him. But with a maniac in command the time-ship did bad things. Now with Janeway in command Voyager does good throughout the show. Of course many times episodes will be about other crew members, but Janeway commands everyone, with "good" decisions, otherwise it would all have gone to the dogs, like in the time-ship. Look at the Equinox: now THAT was an evil, hypocritical captain. And Janeway was so mad at him especially for making a travesty of the role of the captain.

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milan
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PostMon May 11, 2009 11:48 am    

Oh, and I don't mean disrespect or anything, I have thrown some haughty words ... but hey, I have heard some too directed to me,too... anyway please don't take offence. However I must be adamant on the facts. WHile it says "scout" ship, I've never debated that, but it never says "science" ship, and that is what I debated to the Parallel Universe council on the forum.. Even your example shows "Explorer" which is a completely different thing from "science". And while you try to diminish the importance of my source saying it's "some youtube video", no it's not, it's the official presentation of Star Trek Voyager, the series, by the developers of the show, only that it can be also found on youtube. When they present you a film: hey it's about this! - then you can't just say "yea they were only saying that, but i think it's something different" without sounding hard to believe, to say the least. You can't get a sounder argument than that presentation anywhere in the Alpha or Delta Quadrant. I'm sorry, I mean no disrespect, but while you guys try to prove the impossible, that Janeway is evil, you're missing many points of the show, and I feel that is why you're so dissatisfied. For example I loathe Wesley Crusher in TNG. But I don't mount a crusade against him because I know he is a good character and is acted well.

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Founder
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PostTue Jun 09, 2009 2:18 pm    

I don't mean to butt into the debate on the Ocampa, but was it not obvious that they were pre-warp society? If they had warp, then wouldn't they also have starships? If they had starships, wouldn't they have the capability to make a colony off their damaged and dying world? It makes the Caretaker look like a fool if that is the case.

Anyone seen the episode "Latent Image"??? I just watched the episode on t.v. and found what Janeway did horrible.


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milan
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PostTue Jun 09, 2009 2:38 pm    

Yea cuz you hate her!!

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PostTue Jun 09, 2009 2:58 pm    

Normally I do, But in this case I'm disturbed by her actions because she performed a mental lobotamy on someone she claims is her friend and is a person. (Without his consent)

But what I found strange was that she compared him to a replicator. Was this episode not later on in the show? It looks like it by Seven's presence and Janeway's hairstyle. I thought by this point, she thought of the EMH as a sentient being. Why did the writers have her regress back to her season 1 behavior towards the EMH? I'm confused there. Later on, she defends him as a person in another episode when the Federation questions his status.


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milan
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PostWed Jun 10, 2009 10:28 am    

Ok, I'm game, let us explain to the Parallel Universe:
First: the Star Trek guys didn't want to put a flat character in front of the viewer -who often has pretty high standards-. So as wise, dominant and perfectionist as Janeway is depicted, the writers didn't forget to show us that there's always room for improvement. You're once again questioning something you see as a "flaw" which is actually a deliberately chosen and drawn flaw: one that the captain has to rise above in the end. The episode was about transcendence, learning experience. A learning experience must always be started by a situation which is "flawed". This episode wanted to show the viewer that even the highest ranked, the wisest can make mistakes. The moral is that you have to see your mistakes and correct them. I'll not even try to give a mythological example as before, let's try a more mundane one: it's as if you read all the Spider-man comics, all the heroics and righting wrongs, and then put the reading down and wondered: man that Spider-man is so phoney: how could he let his uncle die like that in the beginning?? Die, Spider-man!! Well, this happens when someone fails to grasp the morale of the story because he's biased in a way.
Plus the episode also pointed out another nice subtopic: good parents learn from their children too. It was Seven who pointed out to Janeway that she had been wrong in her decision. Seven is like her adopted child, a mother has to be a role model to her. And the parent now learned from the child.
So this bad command decision was deliberately placed in the storyline, to show exactly that Janeway can become even better than she already is. But of course we all watch the episode the way we want to.
And I'm glad you mentioned her defending the EHM in another, later episode. Because that shows that she really thought him a sentient being, she didn't only choose the patient approach with the doctor to please Seven.
Voyager is all about a great journey. This episode is about the inner journey of a character. Janeway is flawed only in the first stage of the story. You choose to flatten her character and point at her mistake. This way you kill the whole story and you remain with nothing. Well, you have a flimsy pebble to throw at the titanium bulkhead that is Janeway's character, but you miss out on all that makes the series "Voyager". It's something like watching fireworks in black and white. No wonder you hate Janeway.


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