Captain Janeway 's Worst Command Decision

[Warpcore74]

What in your view is Janeway 's worst command decision.

Some would say that destroying the array to save strangers at the expense of her crew would be bad. Arguably that's a tough moral decision defensible on both side.
I can think of two which come from the same episode;

I never agreed with her decision not to fire on a vessel that was preventing them from landing on an Demon Class Planet (the episode where they all turn out to be duplicate) and ordering Tom to look for another one when half of her crew were already dying. They end up changing course and ultimately dying before they reach another D. Class planet. That alien vessel should have been given several warnings of impending destruction and then destroyed if they had continued to interfere (after all they were only protecting a mining operation and Voyager 's lives are at stake)

In that episode Janeway also disregarded Chekotay s suggestion to return to the D class planet whose atmosphere they needed to survive and blindly persisted to 'head for home'. She does eventually turn about but the time she wasted also cost the lives of her crew.. Do you agree?

[Curtis]

I agree whole-heartedly on those two situations...I also think that destroying the array was one of her worst decisions also, but like you said...touch moral decision, in the end, I probably would have done the same thing she did.

[Lord Borg]

I think that issue aside there though, is if they destroyed another vessel for the sake of their survival "Janeway" would be giving up something of themselves they could never get back. How could they live with murdering who knows how many people, who were protecting what was theirs, for the sake of their survival?

Moving on, for the real Janeway, I must call upon the execution of Tuvix, a living, sentient being who was (for all intents and purposes) killed for the return of Tuvok and Neelix. I am probably more disappointed in the Doctor and the rest of the Crew, though.

In Equinox, Part II Janeway nearly murders an Equinox crew member (all while acting that she is the better officer), simply because during an interrogation, he wouldn't give her an answer she was seeking.

[Warpcore74]

Lord Borg,
Yes, blowing up the vessel for the sake of their survival would have been a tough decision to make but is it not what they do when in battle they engage fire with enemy vessels intent on destoying them? That vessel was firing upon them in spite of Janeway pleading with them that they had no hostile intention. Destroying them to reach the planet would have been self defence and not in breach of the Prime Directive.


The episode with Tuvix is an excellent choice indeed. I do recall though that she justified her decision by saying that Tuvok and Neelix's individual right to exist also needed to be protected, a view hich I would be more inclined to support. Still I can see your point.

[milan]

Man, that Tuvix part was all about being in command, that execution command by the captain was the essence of that episode. It just wanted to show what happens so many times in real life: the whole community wants something to happen and they know it's the right thing to do ultimately, but they don't wanna get their hands dirty. Kes cries and all the rest of them know Tuvix should not exist, and they should bring back their two friends, but everyone just flees when it actually has to be done. It's the classic case: you want something done, you gotta do it yourself. It just showed why she is the captain. Kes is crying but will do nothing, the doctor finds the cure but noo, he won't use it, why the heck did you develop the cure then? For roses? I think it was one of the toughest decisions of the captain, but one of the bests too. It just showed why exactly she is the captain. And the episode also showed it was not at all easier for her to do it than it would have been for anyone else on the crew.

[Warpcore74]

Milan, ten out of ten for your analysis. I agree 110% and dont even mind wasting the 10%

[milan]

[Founder]

[milan]

Of course every piece of art is open to interpretation, so your argument is as valid as mine since you back it up with relevant arguments. But the essence of of literary analysis is trying to understand the thought that made the work of art take shape in the mind of the artist.
I will give you an example: Hemingway: The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber - in this short story a weak husband gets cheated on by his wife, while on a safari, he also runs away from a lion etc. But after that he finally steps up, and shoots a stampeding buffalo right between the eyes, he recovers his courage. Right after that second his wife shoots him in the head from the car, pretending she was shooting for the buffalo.
So, when I was only studying literature, my teacher gave me the short story and said: analyse it! I did my best, but of course could not do much at that time with such a text, I wrote: the protagonist finally heard "the call of the wild", he was reunited with a primordial sense of his ancestors in those primeval settings, blahblah... Bottom line is the teacher said: that is a very nice interpretation, quite original. Now here's what the story is really trying to show: the protagonist's manhood is in question, he shakes off the shackles of a tyrannical wife, and the wife shoots him because she knows that he finally got the courage to divorce her.
So even though one interpretation is as valid as the other in the Tuvix episode, one has to go to the original idea that gave birth to the story if one wants to make a valid analysis. And at this episode's central core is the suggestion that being a leader is not only about giving orders and having your way. On the contrary: the leader bears the burden of responsibility for the group he/she leads. In this case, Janeway is fully responsible for her crew. Where the others have the luxury to step aside and have nothing to do with it if it's too hard for them, the leader does not have that luxury. If she had done nothing, like the others, she would have failed the trust and responsibility that was given to her. The episode is about the weak spirit as opposed to the strong spirit, false innocence against true responsibility.
Tuvix was not a "child", he took away two lives, and at the end those lives were given back. And the thought that the episode means to show a dark side and evil nature of a captain is not valid in the light of Janeway having been created as a role model for young and not so young people alike.
I respect you, Founder, because you probably founded this wonderful forum which is a huuuuge accomplishment, really one of a kind, and with this opportunity I would like to thank you for letting me be a part of it.. This is just simple analysis of facts.

[Founder]

I appreciate the calm and well thought out response. Even though I find myself in disagreement, you are a class act in posting.

However, I don't feel that Tuvix "took away two lives". He did not ask to be created. It was a random accident, one that cost lives, but it happened nevertheless. He was sentient and had a desire to live. What Janeway did may have been for the greater good (that is heavily debatable), but it doesn't change the fact that it was murder. She herself felt the weight of guilt push down on her as she walked out of sickbay. Why, if what she did was help her crew? The Doctor refused to perform the operation. Why? Because his ethical subroutines do not allow him to murder (or harm). The only person she consulted with on what to do was Kes (an obviously biased source). The episode (not necessarily Janeway's fault) did a very poor job of showing Janeway trying to weigh in what should be done with Tuvix. The way it ended was Janeway simply talking to a person that obviously wanted one half of Tuvix back and then forcing him to obey or she'd kill him. She would, of course, opt for the latter option as Tuvix wanted to live.

As for Janeway as a role model, I would certainly hope not. Janeway is hands down one of the most evil persons to appear in Trek lore. The ironic thing is she is not meant to be. I always saw what she was meant to be was a mother figure for the crew, desperately trying to bring them home. Unfortunately, she came across as hypocritcal and cruel. The worst part of that is she had the potential to be a great villain or hero. The irony there is that she was not meant to be written that way. The writers just failed monumentally with her and how to use the character.

If you see her actions as acceptable, then surely what the captain of the Equinox was doing was acceptable as well? He too killed to ensure the safety of his crew and to bring them home. Was that wrong? If yes, then why is what Janeway did ok? Was it the fact she only killed one person to save her crew (as opposed to Ransom killing more then one??)? Janeway killed to get back her tactical officer and her morale officer for the crew or she killed to get her friends back for herself. Either way, it was a selfish reason. What is the difference here between Janeway and Ransom?

Starfleet's mission is to seek out new life. Tuvix was new life and probably the first hybrid to be "born" in such a manner. You could argue that her mission is a little different because they are lost in the Delta Quadrant. Fair point, except one thing. If she is amenable to the idea of "bending the rules", then where is her limit? What type of role model does she serve? She pretends to be the perfect little Starfleet officer, but breaks the rules when she things it's ok.

You're right. This episode is open to interpretation. I understand what you are trying to say: that Janeway had to make a hard choice for the greater good. This is true. However, does that mean the choice was ultimately right? She murdered Tuvix because she essentially felt Tuvok and Neelix had more value for Voyager. Is there not something inherently wrong there?

[milan]

Well yes, this decision was evil in all its aspects, but it was the situation that was evil, not the person who found herself in it. The first bottom line is: two lives are more valuable than one. Another one is this: the other captain's situation was highly different: he murdered beings that came to life naturally, without taking the life of anyone else. But you're right too, what Janeway did was actually murder, the taking away of another life. Still, this is exactly what the episode was about: a captain is not free like the members of the crew are. She Must take a decision, one way or the other. Let's view it in juridical terms: the law states that even if you don't actually partake in an unlawful activity, but you know about it and let it unfold, you are still guilty. So in fact, when members of the crew chose to stay out of it and keep their "innocence", they were guilty. And Janeway was righting a wrong that took away the life of two of her crew members. Proceeding in that action, she had to murder another life, but a life that came to being as a result of another "murder", that was caused by Tuvix. Since we are at juridical points, just by being born, Tuvix was guilty of double manslaughter, the kind of homicide in the process of which one person inadvertantly kills another person, in this case two. So the web of guilt is very complex, it would be the most careless simplification to just say "Janeway did it, she is guilty of murder, she's evil, period."
I personally found this part too freaky for my taste, but it did give a good ground for a lot of healthy controversy. I could compare it to a part in Andromeda, in which the situation was ultimately that Harper could save himself or another person. For him the choice was impossible, how can you choose your life over that of another? And in an astonishing turn of events Trance made the choice, he pulled the plug on the other guy and saved Harper. When asked how she made the choice, her answer was simple: Harper was my friend, the other guy someone I didn't know. Is she the saviour of Harper? Or a murderer? This case is much more ambiguous than Janeway's, compared to this Janeway's act was peanuts, super logical.
I think it wasn't only a choice, it was the duty of a captain what Janeway did. If I had been in her position, I would have done the same thing. Even if I hadn't been the captain of the ship. How about you people? And if you hadn't, could you truly feel as innocent as you first thought you would be? I would like you to contemplate on this.

[Warpcore74]

Milan/Founder thank you for this very interesting exchange.

Milan, I think you hit the nail right on the head when you say that Janeway 's decision to sacrifice Tuvix for the return of Tuvok and Neelix was exercise of prerogative as captain.This Tuvix question should not be simplified to the basic question of whether she was right or wrong, evil or good, selfish or altruistic. To do so would be trivialising the finer nuances of our moral discourse and seeking to bring simplification where none can (should) be achieved - and perhaps more importantly, denying us an opportunity to grow as moral agents by testing, exploring, refining the 'reasons' we give for our moral decisions. It is quite clear that the decision to sacrifice Tuvix was not an easy one to make (Founder, a point you seem to admit when you recognise that Janeway had to recollect herself coming out of sickbay). A strong argument could be made to support Janeway's decision. Consider the dilemma of the doctor who has to decide which life to save during complicated childbirth, the mother or the new born ? (thanks Sara for this example). The doctor says to the husband 'Your wife will die if we let nature takes its course and let that baby come into this world'. Should the husband be perceived to be 'evil' or 'immoral' if he said ' Kill the new born and save my wife'? Would he not be 'interfering' with the inalienable right to the life that the baby was about to receive? You may argue that this example is a disanalogy because the Tuvix was shouting for his right to exist the way a new born could not but would it that make it more incumbent upon the doctor to save that baby since he had no one to defend that right?



Founder you say that Starfleet's mission is to seek out new life but could it not be argued that before 'seeking out' new life one should endeavour to protect those that already exist or 'rescue' those that can be rescued - not unlike the way a commander would rescue his men left behind enemy lines? Personally, I am tempted to agree with Janeway's decision. Not because I am a cynical utilitarian that think that 'Saving two lives is always better than saving one life' - ethics is not a matter of arithmetics but because,like it has been said by others, it was her call to do so. The fact that her motivations might have had something to do with needing a moral officer, a security officer for her ship would not make her decision immoral (compare ' I did it because I missed Neelix cooking or 'I did it because Tuvix got on my nerves'..

[Founder]

I think both posters are confused on my stance. I'll try to make it a bit more clear.

I'm fully aware that Janeway was in her full authority to do what she did. As you all pointed out, repeatedly, she is the captain and that comes with the territory. Yes, this is true.

However, the problem that comes with this is that even captain's have their limits. She did what she had to for the greater good (this is debatable as some would say it wasn't at all a greater good). Nothing changes the fact that it was murder. He, being a sane individual, refused to allow himself to die. The Doctor, bound by morals (installed into him by the Federation), recognized that this was murder. It was unethical to kill him. Tuvok and Neelix died, but there was no malice in their deaths. Tuvix did not kill them, he simply was born as a result of their deaths. Janeway still went ahead and did it. Yes, she had a nice little tumble in the corridor to show how sad she was. Then next week it was back to business. I don't feel sad at all for Janeway because she, as she puts it in Endgame, made her cake and ate it too in this episode. In the end, she got her way and got back her friends. It only cost the life of another sentient being that wanted to live.

In fact, I would feel a lot more sorry for her if she allowed Tuvix to live. THAT would have been a difficult choice because she chose to preserve the life of a being, something she is bound to do by law, but at the cost of her two friends. (Of course, Tim Russ and Ethan Phillips were not leaving the show, so it isn't possible that this scenario would occur).

As for her duty to protect her crewmates, a primary mission in Starfleet...

I'm sorry but the analogies are flawed. She didn't protect those that already existed because Tuvix existed and she killed him. As for "going back for a man behind enemy lines"... Neither Tuvok or Neelix were behind enemy lines. They were dead. That's it. They died and Tuvix existed.

Onto the dying mother/baby and father analogy. In your analogy, unless I'm misreading, you don't mention what the mother has to say about this. Is she unconcious or too ill to speak on her behalf. If the mother says save the baby, then I would painfully oblige her. If she is unconcious or for some reason can not speak and I have to make the decision alone, I would go based off of what I knew of her. If I knew her to be a self-sacrificing, loving mother then I would know what choice I'd have to make. Janeway didn't even think of what Neelix and Tuvok would want. Naturally, in an ideal setting, they'd want to live and have Tuvix live too. However, that wasn't the case. But would they be ok with killing another, an innocent person mind you, to save themselves?

milan hit some interesting points, but I still disagree. Captain Ransom killed aliens that came to life naturally? Tuvix was an accident, yes, but it was still natural. He was not purposefully made.

As for Tuvix being a murderer and guilty of double manslaughter. No, he wasn't at all. For it to be any form of murder, their has to be malice (intent) or not intent (accidental death). It was neither as he did not exist when they died. He is guilty of nothing. By this logic, if a mother dies during childbirth, then the baby is guilty of manslaughter. No one would say that is true.

No one seems to understand that what happened was in no way Tuvix's fault and you're falling into the trap that Janeway and those that agree with her decision are making. He came to existance by pure accident. His existance, due to a transporter malfunction, cost two beings to merge into one (is this even considered murder)? Tuvok and Neelix didn't necessarily die, but merged into one new being. Of course, that description would not make any person feel better if they wanted the two back. They no longer exist in the tradiational sense and now Tuvix does. Going back to save them at the cost of another person's life...isn't right.

This is a really good moral dilenma because it is hard to see if Janeway is right or wrong. Why? Because in either case, she is saving a life (albeit at the cost of another one). So if she goes to save Tuvok/Neelix, then it is hard to say that she is evil. If she saves Tuvix, it is hard to say she is evil. However, the reason that I take my position is because Tuvok/Neelix were gone. It's not like all three were lying on biobeds and had an equal chance to live. The former two were ALREADY gone/done/nonexistant. Going back to save them is like me going back in time to save a mother that died from childbirth (man this analogy is being overused lol!). I save the mother, but now that baby never existed and I destroyed that life because I wanted to save this random woman instead. I didn't let nature take it's proper course and forced it to have it my way. Is this right? No.

A good example (from VOY too), was the episode where the doctor was forced to save either Harry Kim or (I forgot the other name) an ensign. Both were injured and he had time to save only one. He chose Harry Kim. Why do I not attack the doctor for that? Simple: he had to make a choice with TWO LIVING beings in front of him, but only had time to save one. Janeway's choice is not the same at all. Tuvok/Neelix were not hovering there next to Tuvix. They were gone, the end. What she did was the equivalent of my time travel analogy. She "went back in time" to save the parent and killed the child she didn't see as having equal value.

Ironically, Janeway (and Chakotay/Harry Kim) would later go back in time to save their friends at the expense of the route time had taken. Geez this crew...

Finally, I just want to point out, I don't think Janeway is evil solely for this episode. Watch the entire series and you will easily see Janeway is one of the more evil captains in Starfleet. I think she was promoted to admiralship because they wanted her trapped in an office and out of a starship.

[milan]

Ok, now the talk has passed into the domain of who can come up with more clever arguments. First, I have yet to see some good arguments and examples of Janeway being "evil", a statement which, if we go far away from this argument we are having, and look back, will look absolutely ridiculous. You might interpret her deeds and decisions in one way or another, still she was not written to be evil, and that is what counts. I have seen plenty of interviews and stuff in which thousands of people look upon her character as a rolemodel, so people's general evaluation of the Janeway character doesn't uphold the claim that she is "evil". And I will give you an example from the series itself too: Q admits to her being the "best of the best humanity can offer" or whatever, I can't quote now word by word, so even the author's intention is to bring out humanity's best in the said character. Now of course, as we have seen so many times before, there are always "alternative" people, who contradict mainstream, define themselves by that contradiction even, and then come up with examples that would underline their own truth, which is the opposite of what everyone else sees. Let's just take Christianity and the new "heathen" trend that has long-haired people running around with the sign of the Hammer of Thor in their necks damning Christianity, and coming up with their own reasons of why Christianity is bad and rotten to the core. This does not change the fact that the concept of God is a fundamental symbol of good, just like Janeway is a fundamental symbol of good.
Now don't get me wrong, I myself am not a religion-freak, I listen to Nordic Metal too, I just brought this up as an example. So I'm sure that some of Janeway's deeds can be interpreted in other, more "evil" ways, but let's not forget this is not real life, this is a TV series. Any of those decisions or acts that could depict Janeway as "evil" are not her flaws but the flaws of the writers who wrote the series. Because they fundamentally wanted to write a "best of the best" character.
And for argument's sake, I can also state that Janeway murdered no one. Tuvix murdered no one. We see no corpses. We see two beings transform into one and then transform back. Nobody died. Two consciousnesses merged into one and then separated back. Of course I only made this up for the sake of argument. What I'm trying to say is: the part is not about Janeway committing murder. The whole story is just a symbol, pointing to traits of character.

[Founder]

Uh...what? All debates are clever arguments. I have yet to see a single counter argument to my points, outside of "she's a captain and made a tough choice".

She was not written to be evil? Irrelevant. All that shows is the writers of VOY failed miserably when they wrote her (a point I won't argue). I actually stated earlier that Janeway was, in my opinion, written to be a mother figure for the VOY crew. However, she didn't come across as one. She was hypocritical and self-righteous.

You've seen interviews/people's evalutation where thousands say she is a role model. Where are these numbers coming from? If you go to any site outside of STV. com, you'll see she is actually rather hated as a character. I rarely find anyone that says she is a good character. If people honestly do see her as a role model, then I am actually frightened. (not a joke) And even if it were true that the majority says Janeway is good (I'm going to guess the majority never the show under this assumption), what does that matter to me? I don't obey the majority. I go by what is seen on the show and she is portrayed, by writers or not, as a terrible captain.

I don't see how Janeway being percieved as evil is ridiculous. She may not be the mustach-twirling villain clique, but she is far from a good character. I don't see how, in any way, she was meant to be an ideal captain.

As for Q admitting she is the best humanity has to offer. This is laughable and utterly offensive...to humanity. Please take into consideration the context it was said (a COMICAL way). Not to mention, if my memory serves me correctly, he said to her while trying to get into her pants (this was the episode where he wanted to impregnate her no?). It was not said as praise. The idea that Janeway is somehow the best of the best out of the billions of Humans in the Trek universe...wow... I would hope not. Again, I understand your point was the writers and that they wanted to show how highly a Q thought of her. Unfortunately, as I pointed out, Q was hardly saying it in ideal circumstances. A better example may have been Kes saying how grateful she was to Janeway for all she did for her or maybe Tuvok displaying his loyalty to her out of their close friendship?

As I stated earlier, Janeway is not publicly liked. I'm not arguing that not a single person likes her. They're mostly fanboys of the show or said character. I'm not allowed to post links to other forums, but I can PM them to you if you want to see. Even Youtube has fan reviews that tear Janeway apart. I assure you, I am not an "alternative" person that is going against the mainstream. In fact, it is those that defend Janeway who are the alternative.

I'm not forgetting that this is just a tv show. However, if you want to go down that route, there is no point in posting in this topic at all. Anything she did was in a fictional world and we're wasting our time talking about her, VOY, or Trek in general no? This topic is about the character, not how the writers wrote her. I won't disagree with you that she was written terrible and I blame the writers, not Mulgrew for that.

You shoot yourself in the foot by saying that any flaws do not belong to her, but to the writers who wrote for the series. Um...what? The writers MADE her. They can make her into whatever type of character they wanted. Any flaw writtern of her is just that...a flaw of her character. By your argument, any "good" thing that she does should not be attributed to her, but to the writers for writing her that way. Well...yes...that's true. However, we (the audiance) generally just focus on the characters.

Janeway has always been a polarizing character, always. There is a reason that on this forum, and even in other Trek forums, there are topics dedicated to asking "what is her most controversial decision?" We don't see a lot of those with Kirk or Picard. Janeway made a lot of questionable command decisions.

I have absolutely 0 idea where you're getting this notion that Janeway is written as the "best of the best" or a "symbol for good". Maybe we were watching two different shows, but she didn't come across as either. She started off neutral and slowly degenerated as a character. Was she meant to be written this way?

Yes, for argument's sake, you can write that Janeway did not commit murder. That would be a much stronger argument outside of "she's captain and it's her perogative to do that". Although, that goes back to the debate if she did commit murder or not. Some don't see it as simple as seperating a conciousness. You'd have to debate with them.

The bottom line of this topic is to reflect on her most controversial decisions. I pointed out the ones that disturbed me most. Even though I highly enjoy this debate, as there hasn't been one like this on STV in...a long time, I find myself often at this point (but only on this site). This is the only site where if one attacks Janeway, people are flabbergasted and attack back. Even in a topic dedicated to pointing out that she made questionable command decisions is not safe. I like the debate, but the constant Janeway obsession gets old at times. She is not the perfect captain, actually far from it. Even if one argues, each captain has their strengths and weaknesses, I find it much more difficult to be a proponent of Janeway and not need a stronger effort to defend the myriad of crimes she committed in the show. Even if the writers failed with Janeway, what we got was what we got: a highly flawed captain that stranded her crew and then cheated to get them back home, while simultaneously stating she would always uphold Federation principles. If she was written to be a bittersweet ironic character, she wouldn't be so laughable.

[milan]

I have to disagree with you on the Q question. You say he wanted to get into her pants, that's why he said what he said. But we must not forget that under all that irresponsible comic charade we find one of the most powerful creatures in the Universe. And he didn't want to "get into her pants" for a frivolous one night stand, sex was irrelevant to him. He wanted Janeway to combine her genes with him! To make him a child! Now when the most powerful creature in the Universe, not to mention one of the -yes- wisest, since he keeps order in the Universe, even though he makes a wonderful show out of making a mess of it, so when such a creature goes to someone and says: it's YOU I want to combine my genes with... well let's just say you don't get a bigger praise anywhere in the Universe than that.
I don't shoot myself in the foot with the argument of the writers, because anyone who has tried their hand in writing knows: the plot of a story, once started, demands things back from the writer. If you want to show an idea in your work, you have to focus on it, you have to sacrifice other things in the story to get the message through, things that are not as important in that moment for the development of the said idea. This is why I think you can find some chinks in the Janeway armour: sometimes the story focused on other characters, on other ideas, maybe that's when you saw some ...let's say dubious things in Janeway's character. Because at that moment the writer's attention was not focused on showing and developing the janeway character, but maybe it was on Tom Paris or the idea of being everywhere at once in the Universe or anything else.
But I don't like talking in generalized nothings, like "everyone sees" and "so many of her decisions". If you come up with precise examples and point out: "This is the part that makes her an evil person or bad captain" then I can bring my ideas to it and we can productively go on with the debate.
About the idea that so many people dislike Janeway and the Youtube thing: I have seen most Youtube clips on Voyager, and out of the so-so many only about 1-5% is against her, and that is usually by some frustrated fan who wanted something different and made up many silly little arguments that I could counter anytime. Usually I have a few laughs on that clip and move on. I have seen a few recordings of Star Trek conventions, I have never seen people having signs of "Boo Janeway" or going up to Mulgrew or a producer or writer saying: "Pitiful job on the character." But I have seen many smiling people asking nice questions of Mulgrew, taking pictures with her, asking for her autograph. Now I don't argue the fact that there are many people who dislike her and that you could send 50 people down my neck with warp 9 insulting Janeway and questioning her parentage, but even so, they are still the smaller part of the fans, the so-called "alternatives". This word is not demeaning, it's not offending, its meaning only refers to the fact that those people belong to a minority.
I really would like to hear some examples on her bad side, because I can list about a hundred examples of her good side without thinking. Can yours outweigh mine? or are they just "the alternative"? And Endgame doesn't count, they had to end the show in 80 minutes, putting into it enough eyecandy and good ideas to try to please the fans, obviously that story has a lot of chinks...still I found it enjoyable. And Janeway committed one billion murders ...probably saving ten billion more lives, so we're back to the Tuvix dilemma, right?

[Valathous]

Going back to a point from a few posts ago where you claim legal reasoning.

There was no murder on the part of Tuvix. The action that took place was done by the transporter or the flower. Tuvix was the end result, he was not there previously to cause the other two lives to end.

Secondly, for Tuvix to have committed the original murders there would need to be Actus Reus and Mens Rea. I've already proved there was no Actus Reus on the part of Tuvix in my previous blurb. And as for Mens Rea, there was no mental intent to murder. Again, he was not there before hand to cause the transformation, he did not think to himself "I'm going to kill Tuvok and Neelix". For there to be a murder you need both of these to have taken place. Neither takes place.

In the case of Janeway, however, both occur. There is the Mens Rea in Janeway thinking "I'm going to ends Tuvix's life by separating the two to bring back Tuvok and Neelix." Intent was there. Then the Actus Reus is there when she actually follows through with the procedure, ending Tuvix's existence.

Legal standpoint - Janeway is guilty of murder. Your early claim that Tuvix would be guilty of murder would be wrong.

[milan]

man�slaugh�ter (mān'sl�'tər)
n. The unlawful killing of one human by another without express or implied intent to do injury.
This is a dictionary definition. He had no intent to do injury, still because of him two men ceased to exist. Plus you forget that in one of my arguments I said that there was no murder on anyone's part, there is no corpse just a unification and a separation of two beings. Of course there is the idea that a consciousness is a life, so the debate can go on in te direction if the ceasing of those consciousnesses is murder or not. But I give you another example: euthanasia. The subject will become a potato, his/her consciousness will cease to exist as it was. Still it's not considered murder, there is no corpse. Still, this idea secondary in the context we are debating. The topic is: was it a good decision or a bad one? Let me give you an extremistic example: if someone had murdered Hitler before the World War began, would that have been a bad decision? He did commit murder... But having done so he saved countless other lives. Janeway did commit murder...but to save two other lives. Now you can't put a price on life, but if you had a button which would save a person's life, and you had another which would save two persons' lives, which one would you push? Of course circumstances are different, Tuvix was already there, the two others were already gone. Still nobody dares to address my question: what would you have done? As a responsible captain? Would you have left two of your crew members to die, so that one new consciousness could live, could you have felt innocent? Saying "that was nature's course, I'm sorry"? If an alien life form swallows two crew members whole do you just say: well that's nature's course? Or do you kill it and drag out your friends by their hair back into existence? That alien has a consciousness, a life, an existence.

[Founder]

Well, I did provide an example of her "bad side" : Endgame. In my eyes, that is the most controversial thing she's done.

[milan]

I don't know what was such a bad decision in Endgame. Many borg died, thus even more other beings escaped future assimilation.

[Founder]

She destroyed the future of trillions just to save Chakotay, Seven, and Tuvok.

In addition, Admiral Janeway told Captain Janeway that they remain in the Delta Quadrant for another decade. How many countless people/species was the VOY crew going to save in that time? Oh well, Admiral Janeway wanted to get home earlier.

Not to mention, anyone else think it's funny that she didn't save all the other VOY crew that died on the journey? Just the few she deemed important.

[milan]

Oh, so you do think that Janeway saves people/species? That is nice, she does do that. So she is a positive influence after all, not a cold, dark, evil character.
She didn't save the other crewmembers for the simple fact that the borg transporter gizmo node Idunno what it's called now... was situated at that point where Voyager passed at that time. And of course she did save all the other crewmembers who would have died in the decade that would have come after they had passed the node. There were often enough occasions when Janeway made it clear that all her crewmembers were just as important, sometimes even obsessively, or let me quote her funny, simplified version about the duties of a captain: "Keep your shirt tucked in, go down with your ship and NEVER LEAVE CREW MEMBERS BEHIND." If there had been a borg transporter gizmo thingy right near the Caretaker I'm sure she would have taken her crew home on the very first day of their voyage.
And I still see only the trillions of Borg that she destroyed, who would have assimilated and destroyed the lives of tens of trillions of peaceful inhabitants of the Universe, so actually Cappy saved tens of trillions of lives.
As for not saving lives in the Delta Quadrant for another decade, they weren't even supposed to be there in the first place. The Prime Directive states that the Federation should not interfere in the natural lives of other species, and Janeway honoured that by taking away a whole decade of interference. And who knows if that interference was going to be positive all the way? Maybe Voyager would inadvertantly cause a chain reaction that would blow up a whole solar system or something. Of course nothing like that was mentioned in the story but nothing of the opposite was mentioned either. Assumptions anyone can make, one way or the other. But the facts I had stated earlier speak for themselves. Plus I don't think even a whole decade of the regular doing-good of Voyager can measure up to the saving of countless whole civilizations from the Borg horror. So thank you, Janeway, for saving the future! Thumbs up for the best captain/admiral in the fleet!

[Warpcore74]

Yep spot on again Milan. To argue that Janeway 's decision to change the past costs the lives of trillion is pure speculation. Nothing more. Speculation that you can twist and turn to conjure up any fanciful scenario to that your prejudices care to make. Given that I am a fan of Janeway - , I will decide that as well as saving the lives of trillions from assimilation like Milan says she saved even more because 26 months after her return she will give a lecture in a college Rema 5 and inspire a young half betazoid half vulcan woman to join Starfleet, that woman will become to be known as Captain Sepora also known in the starfleet history books as the captain whose crew under her command on board the Starship Lumiere will save the Alpha, Delta, Beta , Gamma quadrants from destruction by stabilising a huge quantity of Omega particles (particle 010 in Borg language) that had been synthesised by a crazy profit driven but genius Ferengi named Waark.. Imaginary nonsense I hear you say? My point exactly.

[milan]

What an imagination And Seven will found her own Omega religion that will spread through the galaxy, driving people to strive to achieve perfection under the supervision of the new High Priestess, thus making technology and consequently living conditions improve throughout the sector and bring about Galactic Peace. The End:)

[Founder]