Temporal Mechanics - The Migraine topic.

[squiggy]

Everyone says that time travel gives them a headache..
and that isn't surprising.
When you start talking about multiple timelines((for example the 'mirror universe')), you start using different verb tenses in the same sentence.
For example, a person talking about events that HAVE happened in the future, but WILL happen in the current, will refer to them typically as "You will eventually do this, but you already have."
Then you start talking about Temporal Shielding, which, through the events of time travel, will eventually cause temporal paradoxes.
For example:
Let's do... First contact...
Say that the borg attack on earth happened during the year of hell episode...
During this time, there would be two things that should not be happening:
1) The Enterprise going back in time and repairing damages done in the past((The earth was assimilated in the past, causing the enterprise, and every other federation starship not to exist.))
2) Voyager's conflict with the timeship.((Voyager should not exist.))
However, 2 events that defy the natural law of time/space were occuring.
1) The Enterprise was stuck in a "time/space portal" which permitted them to see the outcomes of the time tampering, and go back and repair it.
2) Voyager was protected using Temporal Shielding.
Here's an interesting concept...following these lines. If the Enterprise had failed:
1) The dominion would have been assimilated, rather then defeated in the dominon war.
2) The cardassians would have been assimilated, rather then defeated in the dominion war.
3) The klingons would have been either defeated, or assimilated, or defeated and assimilated during the dominion war without the UFP to help them.
4) Vulcan probably would have been assimilated prior to the Dominion war.
5) The dominion war would not have been nearly as relevant.
6) Upon returning home, Voyager would have been assimilated, Thus giving the borg technology that shouldn't exist, and only existed because Voyager exists through stolen borg technologies, which probably didn't exist in this time frame.
7) Using this technology, the borg could then protect thier entire fleet from the time stream, and go back in time, and assimilate problem planets before they became problem planets.
The "FINAL" Result: Within no time at all, literally, due to time tampering, the Galaxy would have been assimilated.
However, the Time/Space continuum refuses to allow durastic alterations to the natural flow of things. It offends mother nature. Thus, the time/space portal stayed open long enough for the Enterprise to go through, and correct the damage, because The Enterprise was pre-destined to be at the events surrounding First Contact, which would not have occured without the Enterprise's presence, which would not be there had First Contact not occured. Thus, Mother Nature abuses time travel as well. But only to repair time travel. Confusing, isn't it?
Also, it is possible, that had the enterprise failed, Voyager may have gone back in time, and assisted the Enterprise, upon learning that Earth had been assimilated a great deal of time in the past.
Thus:
1) The whole first contact movie could have been pointless. Voyager may have destroyed the Enterprise while it was in the past. This would, however, possibly permanently damage the timeline.
2) The borg probably could not have taken on both starships at once, thus, the borg may not have transported to the Enterprise, thus, First Contact would never have been threatenend.
3) First contact may never have occured, because Voyager may have destroyed the Enterprise after learning it was partially going through assimilation prior to the Enterprise crew repairing Cochrane's ship, thus, destroying thier future. In addition, a key character, "Lily" may have been removed.
4) The Enterprise and the Voyager may have been assimilated prior to thier build dates, and, as earth was assimilated as well, by a borg sphere from the future, the borg of that time would have had a nearly 2 century boost in technology, permitting them to assimilate the entire bloody galaxy.
Interesting, how time travel... can give a person a migraine.
There is always a fifth possibility.
5) We can not properly speculate the probable out comes of this kind of time paradox, simply because, there may be other unknown forces at work which would not have otherwise been in place. Therefore, anything could have happened.

[lionhead]

You know, thats all total nonsense.

you mix up Multiverses and Linear timelines.

Star trek universe doesn't have a linear timeline as in End Game the timeline was changed but Admiral Janeway didn't disappear.

The Star Trek Universe has multiple Dimensions, Infinite perhaps. If there are inifinte the Borg could never assimilate all of them, ever. Infinite means the universe we have been observing could exist forever and nothing that happened in the Time Travel movies and episodes could have changed that as in another dimension it has changed, and we are not observing that dimension.

First Contact happened because the Enterprise from the same timeline did what the ship already had done in the past, they already came from the timeline in which the Borg where defeated in the past and Cochrane knew about the future Enterprise.

The fact the wormhole kept open long enough for the enterprise to go through is irrelevant.

Year of Hell or mother nature have nothing to do with it.

[Pyro114]

Simply put, there are infinite copies of 'our' timeline/dimesion, exploring all options, all possible 'outcomes'.



Right?

[lionhead]

Yep, thats what i thought at least.

[Pyro114]

Makes sense.

This theory is also used in some other sci-fi universes.

[Pyro114]

There is however one snag in this theory.

How can there be possible different outcomes? Everything happens because something has happend before.

All descisions are based on something, nothing is truly random.

And everything can be traced back to the beginning.

Example:
I scratch my arm.
Why did I scratch my arm?
-because it itched
Why did it itch?
-because a mosquito bit me
Why did it bite me?
-cause it was hungry (or some sh*t) and I was the only person in the room
Why was the mosquito in the room
-cause it was attracted to the light
Why was the light there?
-cause I turned it on.
Why did I turn it on?
-cause it was dark (like outside, night)
Why was it dark outside?
-cause the Earth revolves around it's own axel
Why does it do that?
-blablabla

You can keep that why, why, why thing going all the way back to the creation of Earth, the SolSystem and finally to the dawn of the universe.

So, for a timeline to become different the very first thing that ever happened would have to be different.

But the slightest difference in the beginning would mean a HUGE difference after say 4.5 billion years. Therefor it seems unlikely to me that mirror universe, or alternate timeline, persons would resemble our persons/civilisation.

.....

[lionhead]

Yes well, even the slightest difference in the very first thing that happened in the different universes could not only make huge differences in their futures, but also small ones. Like the mosquito biting you in the leg. As there are infinite universes, there is 1 universe exactly like our earth, except the mosquito bit you in the leg instead of the arm.

Also, going back in time would definitly make a different universe spontaneously. The moment you go back in time you actually create a new universe, but only by making 1 universe 2, instead of entering an already existing universe(like what happened in that strange TNG episode).

Definitly confusing. Because if there are infinite universes then Universes where timetravel is common would exist too, infinite numbers.

I'm not very happy with the word infinite.

[Manitou]

That's O.K., but you're not mentioning the weight of the matter-- and neither does Star Trek. If a little girl goes back in time and changes the vector and form of billions and billions of tons of stuff- one should reckon this too. This is why time-travel is impossible, unless you didn't change anything. Scientists talk about thousands of dimensions just waiting to change the three that is our dwelling place. This would be interesting for some entity outside the three dimensions but not that interesting. Who would sign and deliver all the machinery needed to change the basic form and history of everything.
Their are those who believe one wouldn't remember anything and for those reasons previously stated.
I'm sure Anorax (Year of Hell)knew this but I don't think anybody else did.

[lionhead]

Alright, first off when talking about a "Dimension" your talking about a parallel universe or an alternate universe. Not coordinates in math. Every other alternate universe or parallel universe has 3 dimensions of course.

I think its best to discribe that an alternate universe is a universe created because of what you changed through time travel(think "back to the Future"), while a parallel uinverse is an already existing universe which you enter(like the mirror universe). I think Star Trek deals with both(as time travel obviously doesn't create another dimension as seen in FC while there are different dimensions like the mirror universe.)

In Star Trek there is a difference between time travel and dimension "jumping". I believe time travel in Star Trek would always alter the universe you are in, which means your creating your own past. You do however "jump" into that time, so changes made are created on the spot.

If you jump to a dimension similar to that of yours it might look like you are time travelling though, changing the course of history of that dimension but not affecting your own. Whether or not you will travel back to your own universe or to the future of that dimension can only be proven by some observing entity. like Q.

In FC i think they actually time travelled, and changed history towards the history they know for themselves(as in the records of the Enterprise was the speech by zefram cochrane about the borg, proving the Enterprise in the past in the same timeline, not another dimension)

its possible that Admiral Janeway did not time travel but jumped to another dimension. the events that followed where not similar to that of FC, or else all the things she did would caused her to dissappear. Thus her travel was not similar to that of the Borg in FC.

However, it could be that a person that has time travelled would step out of its own time and thus be immune to any changes. If thats true however that would leave to believe that another dimension would be created when one time travels. Which means first the Borg Sphere made a new dimension(one that the Enterprise saw) and then the Enterprise again when they followed. When they repaired whatever damage was done they didn't travel back towards their own dimension again but where stuck in the dimension they created themselves. Which would then mean their historical records would indicate their own actions too an Enterprise from another dimension that either was destroyed or found a way to indeed come back to their own timeline/dimension(which would inidicate they went back to a universe destroyed by what the borg changed, but not what they themselves changed).

Migraine

[Manitou]

[lionhead]

Heresy huh.... I thought it was called the temporal prime directive.

i don't really know what your talking about though.

Of course Starfleet would cover up time travels by Starfleet officers for the public because its first off illegal to do so and would cause wide-spread chaos and confusion on the population. When its known time travel has been done before and what effect it has, more people would start trying to change history for all kind of reasons, or go in the future to get advanced technology or other information. That would result in a second temporal civil war.

its just not smart to time travel, starfleet knows that, after first contact even the Borg know that(and people, please don't start asking why the borg won't time travel again). Sometimes it just happens and the results could be catastrophical, but for now the they have been able to keep the damage as minimal as possible.

[deltaflyer3]

like they say on the time ship Relitivity
Just forget about the tenses