| Did the Borg die in Endgame? |
| Yes |
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41% |
[ 31 ] |
| No |
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29% |
[ 22 ] |
| Maybe-It wasn't made clear |
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29% |
[ 22 ] |
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| Total Votes : 75 |
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| Author |
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Pyro114
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 99
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 Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:13 am |
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I do assume the Borg have encountered phatogenes/virus' before. But I would assume future Janeway would have assumed that as well and made the most kick-ass virus in federation history.
-------signature-------
"Don't tell people how to do things, tell them what to do and let them surprise you with their results." - George S. Patton
"The journey is more important then the end...or the start."
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Valathous
The Canadian, eh
Joined: 31 Aug 2002
Posts: 19074
Location: Centre Bell
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| Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:50 am |
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And thereby assuming that humanity an odd 40 years into the future is more technologically, scientifically, and medically advanced than anything else that the Borg encountered before-hand thereby reassurance the arrogance and self-importance of humanity, 
To think that the Borg haven't encountered beings more advanced than Humanity 40 years ahead in time is baffling, to say the least.
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The Montreal Canadiens - Celebrating 100 years of glory.
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Pyro114
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 99
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| Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:11 am |
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Humanity's information software was always pretty good. And if you don't know it's comming, you can't defend properly.
Agree to disagree?
-------signature-------
"Don't tell people how to do things, tell them what to do and let them surprise you with their results." - George S. Patton
"The journey is more important then the end...or the start."
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:03 am |
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Oh god i got so much to reply to.
Pyro114, your some kind of computer wizkid right?(i mean that in the positive sense), would explain you connecting the Borg with a computer and using computer terms to explain the Borg.
| Pyro114 wrote: | | In Endgame, when the Queen is 'dieing' she goes 'sphere xxxx i can still hear them' then she directs the vessel to intercept voyager. |
Yes, that is indeed a very insteresting sentence, i've looked into it before. What basically happened, and what the Pathogen did to the Queen is seperate her from the Collective mind. She however has monitors and such around her, not to mention Admiral Janeway next to her, being assimilated. Its safe to assume she hasm ore information regarding Voyager then any of the Other borg do, but she is cut off from the hive. Thouh, when she realises there is still 1 Sphere in contact with her, she can tell it what happened and needs to destroy Voyager right awa. That way proablby not the original plan of the borg anymore as Voyager had obtained Technology that as far more superior then their own weapons. But since she thought, and i quote what she said to the Admiral: "Captain Janeway is about to die; if that happens, Admiral Janeway will never exist, and everything that she has done will be undone."
It didn't work though, we know that now but she believed it and that was enough to change the orders. Even though she did it herself, it was only because she had more information at the time.
Its always the case with the Queen, also with the whole Unimatrix 01 thing about her blowing up a cube that it always appears as if she is an individual. But you have to remember that she isn't. When she speaks, the Hive mind is talking. At all times. She is a just a tool, like a Borg drone, her purpose is to give a face to the Borg(like locutus, who was created to persuade Humanity to be assimilated), be able to commnicate normally with an alien species(speaking with billions of voices at once kinda freaks most of them out) and of course experiment with Individuality(like they did with Seven of Nine, when the Queen tried to get her back in the collective voluntarily)
| Pyro114 wrote: | In order to make the immortal queen hive combination work, there has to be a 'saved file' of the queen when she's in her physical form -- your blueprints.
For that 'backup' to be effective it has to be updated in realtime, so they'd have to have an active datalink at all times. The virus could easily piggyback on that datastream an attack the program's core.
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Well that kinda the whole idea of the Borg Hive mind isn't it? A constant full connection with every single Borg drone. The Hive mind is an active datalink, thats what would make her Porgram immortal, as that data will never get lost in the nearly endless capacity of the borg collective mind.
No core needed then too.
| Quote: | Next, yes a single Borg could restart a hive, but it would lack the collective memory and the Queen's commad. As the Queen would be destroyed and the hive network probably down, ships would create their own collective and either team up again (restarting the entire Borg thing) or go kick each others asses (total chaos)
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Alright, not a chance. If the borg queen commands them, they lost it when the borg went back in time in Fist Contact as well, but her missing didn't affect them at all. They obvsiously don't have the queen to give them commands.
Next to that, its not neccesary for a Borg drone to be in contact with the Hive mind to do what its supposed to do. Just longer times being disconnected makes certain individual traits to be reactivated(or just simply whatever supresses the individuality deactivated). But i already stated that.
| founder wrote: | Good debate being stirred here.
I think judging from the little information we got from "Endgame", I think we can all agree the Borg were very hurt from the pathogen and probably set back. Personally, I don't think they'll be bothering the UFP for the rest of the 24th century (twenty years left of it).
I'm still not convinced the Borg are officially destroyed. As Q once said, you can destroy a part of them but what they truly are always exists. It seems killing the Queen, as displayed in FC, does nothing to them. I think the Borg are set back monumentally, but not really dead. Probably the only way to destroy the Borg is to kill every single drone. |
| Valathous wrote: | | Besides, it'd be economic suicide for Paramount to kill off their franchise's #1 universally hated and feared "bad-guy" |
I completely agree
| Pyro 114 wrote: | | I do assume the Borg have encountered phatogenes/virus' before. But I would assume future Janeway would have assumed that as well and made the most kick-ass virus in federation history. |
Also agreed.
| Valathous wrote: | And thereby assuming that humanity an odd 40 years into the future is more technologically, scientifically, and medically advanced than anything else that the Borg encountered before-hand thereby reassurance the arrogance and self-importance of humanity,
To think that the Borg haven't encountered beings more advanced than Humanity 40 years ahead in time is baffling, to say the least. |
We don't know the situation of the borg in Admiral Janeways timeline. Could be they had already used multiple types of Pathogens on the Borg before this one was constructed. Who knows how long she had been working on it.
Next to that, the Borg in Janeway's timeline are more advanced themselves, meaning that the Pathogen she created could have been based on defeating the more advanced Borg from her own timeline, but she decided to use it against the old one.
You have to remember that up untill the events of End Game, Admiral Janeway came fom the same timeline, with the same events, with the same Borg. So whatever her own future Starfleet knew of the borg had to be more then what they knew in the past. Meaning that the Pathogen could have only been able to bypass more of the Borg defenses then anything from the old timeline could(even though there probably are more advanced species out there, not even discovered in Admiral Janeways time).
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Never explain comedy or satire or the ironic comment. Those who get it, get it. Those who don't, never will. -Michael Moore
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Pyro114
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 99
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| Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:57 pm |
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| lionhead wrote: | | Pyro114, your some kind of computer wizkid right?(i mean that in the positive sense), would explain you connecting the Borg with a computer and using computer terms to explain the Borg. |
hehe, we'll I do have a pretty good understanding of computers, espescially the network stuff. But most of my theorie is based on militairy structures and only supplemented with my knowledge of computers.
| lionhead wrote: | Well that kinda the whole idea of the Borg Hive mind isn't it? A constant full connection with every single Borg drone. The Hive mind is an active datalink, thats what would make her Porgram immortal, as that data will never get lost in the nearly endless capacity of the borg collective mind.
No core needed then too.
my borg queen C&C quote
Alright, not a chance. If the borg queen commands them, they lost it when the borg went back in time in Fist Contact as well, but her missing didn't affect them at all. They obvsiously don't have the queen to give them commands.
Next to that, its not neccesary for a Borg drone to be in contact with the Hive mind to do what its supposed to do. Just longer times being disconnected makes certain individual traits to be reactivated(or just simply whatever supresses the individuality deactivated). But i already stated that.
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About first contact: that time around, only the physical queen was killed, my theorized backup/streaming program would still be online & active.'
What bothers me here is that the Queen is replicated several times. Information needs to be stored somewhere, in your theory I'd assume that would be spread over the billions of drones. And if you'd store data/knowledge/queen program's in the collective memory, what would happen with that data when a drone get's killed? Or a ship lost?
Then again you could have failsafes etc in place transferring the data when biosigs are fading and backups could be made on seperate ships.
Something just popped into mind.
Someone here theorized the nanites where in control of the collective.
This seems logical, as the hosts lose there individuallity. It is of course odd that Seven could regain her individuallity if the nanites where really in control but then again, that could have been a simple glitch.
Assuming this is the case (nanites in control)
Then the nanites, being computercontrolled robots, would be one.
No network as our computer networks or our military structures (multiple systems/units coordinating).
It would be more like our body. The drones are the tools (our hands) and the Queen would be the 'head', with the datalinks as the nerves.
^That's a little far-fetched, let's stick to the old theories.
| lionhead wrote: | | Valathous wrote: | | Besides, it'd be economic suicide for Paramount to kill off their franchise's #1 universally hated and feared "bad-guy" |
I completely agree |
Actually, I don't. Think of it, they weren't excactly planning on a post-Voy series, or film (yeah I know, Nemesis is). Plus, the Borg concept was pretty much stretched to it's limits.
| lionhead wrote: | | Alright, not a chance. If the borg queen commands them, they lost it when the borg went back in time in Fist Contact as well, but her missing didn't affect them at all. They obvsiously don't have the queen to give them commands. |
Funny, this quote has the ingredient for an, almost, fatal blow to my entire theory, but you don't even mention it 
It's not the absence of the Queen that is contradictionary. If I'm not mistaken, the kill takes place near the end of the movie, right? Well then there wasn't much time to need any new commands. Plus if I'd go back in time, cut off from any sort of supllies at all, I'd at least programme my drones to complete the mission (at all costs).
The funny thing is that, when they go back in time, they also lose their connection to the Hive net. So there'd be no chance for the Queen program to stream for the net. This of course could be countered by uploading the most current copy of the Queen to her active copy and create a temporary collective solely for the mission. They could synchronise with the 20th century Borg after completion of the mission.
Also, they wouldn't have acces to the Borg memory. Then again, they wouldn't need to, as long as all mission vital intel is stored in their temp. collective.
Not such a good agrument after all 
| lionhead wrote: | She is a just a tool, like a Borg drone, her purpose is to give a face to the Borg(like locutus, who was created to persuade Humanity to be assimilated), be able to commnicate normally with an alien species(speaking with billions of voices at once kinda freaks most of them out) and of course experiment with Individuality(like they did with Seven of Nine, when the Queen tried to get her back in the collective voluntarily)
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Then, why the hec have an active copy at the transwarp hub????? And what would possibly be the point in taking a Queen back in time in FC?
I can see your reasoning, but I can't agree with you on this one.
| lionhead wrote: | | Its safe to assume she hasm ore information regarding Voyager then any of the Other borg do, but she is cut off from the hive. Thouh, when she realises there is still 1 Sphere in contact with her, she can tell it what happened and needs to destroy Voyager right awa. That way proablby not the original plan of the borg anymore as Voyager had obtained Technology that as far more superior then their own weapons. But since she thought, and i quote what she said to the Admiral: "Captain Janeway is about to die; if that happens, Admiral Janeway will never exist, and everything that she has done will be undone." |
Well, that was kind of a stupid quote anyway, as Admiral Janeway was from an alternate timeline which, we agreed on in the Tech section is really an alternate dimension, so nothing would be undone and Admiral Janeway would still exist (well, she'd be dead, but thats not the point).
And this reminded me on something else. At the ending of Endgame Pt.1, there is a scene in a Borg cube whit Voyager on a monitor and the Hive mind scary voice says something about intercepting and stuff. Then the Queen appears and orders them to stand down. Doesn't that prove something?[/i]
-------signature-------
"Don't tell people how to do things, tell them what to do and let them surprise you with their results." - George S. Patton
"The journey is more important then the end...or the start."
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Pyro114
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 99
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| Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:26 pm |
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O, yeah.
I'm talking about a virus, your talking about a pathogene which in this context would be about the same thing.
But if we look at it's nature, I'll asume it's advandced AI (artifical intelligence, but you already knew that), rather than a classical virus.
Feedback on the AI thing is welcome and appreciated.
-------signature-------
"Don't tell people how to do things, tell them what to do and let them surprise you with their results." - George S. Patton
"The journey is more important then the end...or the start."
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:37 am |
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| Pyro114 wrote: |
hehe, we'll I do have a pretty good understanding of computers, espescially the network stuff. But most of my theorie is based on militairy structures and only supplemented with my knowledge of computers. |
Well, gotta understand then that the borg do not work s a Computer. Better to comapre them to a bee hive or ant colony.
| Pyro114 wrote: |
About first contact: that time around, only the physical queen was killed, my theorized backup/streaming program would still be online & active.'
What bothers me here is that the Queen is replicated several times. Information needs to be stored somewhere, in your theory I'd assume that would be spread over the billions of drones. And if you'd store data/knowledge/queen program's in the collective memory, what would happen with that data when a drone get's killed? Or a ship lost?
Then again you could have failsafes etc in place transferring the data when biosigs are fading and backups could be made on seperate ships. |
Uhm, i thought you had knowledge of Networks? Bits and pieces of unique data are not stored in a single cube or drone of course. all the information is stored several times over all over borg space. Who knows, perhaps every single drone has all the information the Borg has about everything. That sounds more like the thinknig of a machine.
| Pyro114 wrote: |
Something just popped into mind.
Someone here theorized the nanites where in control of the collective. |
yeah, that was me 
| Pyro114 wrote: |
This seems logical, as the hosts lose there individuallity. It is of course odd that Seven could regain her individuallity if the nanites where really in control but then again, that could have been a simple glitch. |
The "nanites"(they are called nanoprobes) take over control by adding Technology. The Doctor removed that Technology on Seven.
| Pyro114 wrote: |
Assuming this is the case (nanites in control)
Then the nanites, being computercontrolled robots, would be one.
No network as our computer networks or our military structures (multiple systems/units coordinating).
It would be more like our body. The drones are the tools (our hands) and the Queen would be the 'head', with the datalinks as the nerves.
^That's a little far-fetched, let's stick to the old theories. |
Uhm, that doesn't make much sense either. If the probes would be in control it means they are like our brains(or "head"), the drones the hands, the cubes the feet and the queen of course the mouth. The datalinks would be neveres, but not only nerves from the brain to the hands and mouth like in a human body, but from one hand to the other hand, from the hands to the mouth, feet, stomach, ears, everywhere. Thats the real difference. As again, you base it all on a network with a CPU. But it isn't.
| Pyro114 wrote: |
Funny, this quote has the ingredient for an, almost, fatal blow to my entire theory, but you don't even mention it
It's not the absence of the Queen that is contradictionary. If I'm not mistaken, the kill takes place near the end of the movie, right? Well then there wasn't much time to need any new commands. Plus if I'd go back in time, cut off from any sort of supllies at all, I'd at least programme my drones to complete the mission (at all costs). |
i wasn't talking about any commands given to the drones that went back in time with her. I was referring to the rest of the borg collective that stayed behind in the future.
| Pyro114 wrote: |
The funny thing is that, when they go back in time, they also lose their connection to the Hive net. So there'd be no chance for the Queen program to stream for the net. This of course could be countered by uploading the most current copy of the Queen to her active copy and create a temporary collective solely for the mission. They could synchronise with the 20th century Borg after completion of the mission.
Also, they wouldn't have acces to the Borg memory. Then again, they wouldn't need to, as long as all mission vital intel is stored in their temp. collective.
Not such a good agrument after all |
Well, Like i mentioned, it could very well be that 1 Sphere, with about 11,000 drones on board(according to Memory Alpha) would prbably have all the information the Borg have with them to the past. I believe even the few Drones that survived onto Enterprise, along with the Queen had all the information the Borg have. They all carry it around like luggage.
| Pyro114 wrote: |
Then, why the hec have an active copy at the transwarp hub????? And what would possibly be the point in taking a Queen back in time in FC?
I can see your reasoning, but I can't agree with you on this one. |
Well, i don't think the Queen was at the transwarp hub. I think Admiral Janeway travelled to the Queen at the Unicomplex. Long time ago that i've seen it though.
But if she was there well, could be many reasons why the Queen was at the Hub. Voyager passed by not too long ago(admiral Janeway told them to go back to the nebula), could be she was transported there to try another attempt of getting Seven to come back, or maybe try another way fo destroying Voyager, which would require the queen again to communicate.
The first time they attacked earth she claimed to have been there, at Wolf 359. She must have been there because they planned to Make Picard into Locutus and she was gonna get information out of him, or help make Humanity surrender. because thats what i think the queens purpose is.
The second time they attacked earth(First Contact) it wasn't the plan to go back in time, the cube got in orbit with Earth, they nearly had them. But the Enterprise got in the way so they improvised. I'm sure the queen went back with them for some reason other then giving them orders. The queen was in the single attacking cube in the first place either to convince Humanity to surrender or to get Picard back into the collective again somehow(but Enterprise wasn't there when the battle started)
| Pyro114 wrote: |
Well, that was kind of a stupid quote anyway, as Admiral Janeway was from an alternate timeline which, we agreed on in the Tech section is really an alternate dimension, so nothing would be undone and Admiral Janeway would still exist (well, she'd be dead, but thats not the point). |
It doesn't matter what we know, its about what the Borg believed would happen.
| Pyro114 wrote: |
And this reminded me on something else. At the ending of Endgame Pt.1, there is a scene in a Borg cube whit Voyager on a monitor and the Hive mind scary voice says something about intercepting and stuff. Then the Queen appears and orders them to stand down. Doesn't that prove something? |
Have to see that again to be able to answer.
| Pyro114 wrote: | I'm talking about a virus, your talking about a pathogene which in this context would be about the same thing.
But if we look at it's nature, I'll asume it's advandced AI (artifical intelligence, but you already knew that), rather than a classical virus |
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Neurolytic_pathogen
Memory Alpha is not canon though.
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Pyro114
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 99
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| Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:36 pm |
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| lionhead wrote: | | Uhm, i thought you had knowledge of Networks? Bits and pieces of unique data are not stored in a single cube or drone of course. all the information is stored several times over all over borg space. Who knows, perhaps every single drone has all the information the Borg has about everything. That sounds more like the thinknig of a machine. |
Yeah I was assuming that first bit. But a single drone housing who knows how many (probably millions of trillions of billions) Terabytes of information for 100s of species? I don't care how advanced you are a human sized databank can't contain that much of knowledge.
| lionhead wrote: | | Well, Like i mentioned, it could very well be that 1 Sphere, with about 11,000 drones on board(according to Memory Alpha) would prbably have all the information the Borg have with them to the past. I believe even the few Drones that survived onto Enterprise, along with the Queen had all the information the Borg have. They all carry it around like luggage. |
I don't think their luggage compartment is big enough for all that (not to be taken litteraly).
| lionhead wrote: | | i wasn't talking about any commands given to the drones that went back in time with her. I was referring to the rest of the borg collective that stayed behind in the future. |
Owh, I didn't get that, but I wouldn't have meant anything for the leftbehind lads, as they still have the program in their collective memory.
| lionhead wrote: | Well, i don't think the Queen was at the transwarp hub. I think Admiral Janeway travelled to the Queen at the Unicomplex. Long time ago that i've seen it though.
But if she was there well, could be many reasons why the Queen was at the Hub. Voyager passed by not too long ago(admiral Janeway told them to go back to the nebula), could be she was transported there to try another attempt of getting Seven to come back, or maybe try another way fo destroying Voyager, which would require the queen again to communicate. |
She was at the transport hub, Janeway's shuttle was there. Then again it's hard to identify different Borg installations as Paramount uses the same scene for almost every installation 
Anyway, as seen in the ending of Endgame pt.1, she was there before the Voyager was detected. Plus getting Seven to come back seems unlikely to me, don't ask why. And sinces when does blasting a ship to smithereens involve communcation?
| lionhead wrote: | | The second time they attacked earth(First Contact) it wasn't the plan to go back in time, the cube got in orbit with Earth, they nearly had them. But the Enterprise got in the way so they improvised. I'm sure the queen went back with them for some reason other then giving them orders. The queen was in the single attacking cube in the first place either to convince Humanity to surrender or to get Picard back into the collective again somehow(but Enterprise wasn't there when the battle started) |
Not there plan to go back in time???? What kind of stupid plan did they have then 'Let's assault the single best defended planet in the Federation with a single cube (not even a Tac Cube I remember). It was their plan all along, just the Entreprise following them kind of messed things up...
| lionhead wrote: | | Uhm, that doesn't make much sense either. If the probes would be in control it means they are like our brains(or "head"), the drones the hands, the cubes the feet and the queen of course the mouth. The datalinks would be neveres, but not only nerves from the brain to the hands and mouth like in a human body, but from one hand to the other hand, from the hands to the mouth, feet, stomach, ears, everywhere. Thats the real difference. As again, you base it all on a network with a CPU. But it isn't. |
Cubes the feet? Then why do you need the drones to control them. Nono cubes are tools, the big guns 
And I'm still not convinced that there's no 'head', if every nanite/nanoprobe/nanobot was part of the brain, then that would be weird, cause the datalinks would be nerves connecting individual braincells or something like that...very ineffieci�nt.
But fine, let's say the Queen would be a communcication subroutine rather than a command program (even though I recommend you watch the ending of Endgame pt1 again).
| lionhead wrote: | http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Neurolytic_pathogen
Memory Alpha is not canon though. |
Doesn't excactly state the type of virus and it's all speculatory.
They talk about Unim.-01 there, wasn't that the virtual dimension where Seven met other Borg and wasn't that destroyed already?
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:48 pm |
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| Pyro114 wrote: |
She was at the transport hub, Janeway's shuttle was there. Then again it's hard to identify different Borg installations as Paramount uses the same scene for almost every installation
Anyway, as seen in the ending of Endgame pt.1, she was there before the Voyager was detected. Plus getting Seven to come back seems unlikely to me, don't ask why. And sinces when does blasting a ship to smithereens involve communcation? |
No no, she was at the unicomplex. I can confirm that now. Memory Alpha has a very long article telling the entire 2 epsiodes in full detail. The admiral left to go to the queen in the unicomplex.
| Pyro114 wrote: |
Not there plan to go back in time???? What kind of stupid plan did they have then 'Let's assault the single best defended planet in the Federation with a single cube (not even a Tac Cube I remember). It was their plan all along, just the Entreprise following them kind of messed things up... |
Ah yes, well the Borg attack strategies has a whole different topic on this forum. You should look it up. But i can confirm, and others i think that it was the initial idea to assimilat earth again. Yes, with 1 cube. Like the first time.
| Pyro114 wrote: |
Cubes the feet? Then why do you need the drones to control them. Nono cubes are tools, the big guns |
Well, maybe not the feet . Perhaps the Transwarp conduits can be seen as feet.
| Pyro114 wrote: |
And I'm still not convinced that there's no 'head', if every nanite/nanoprobe/nanobot was part of the brain, then that would be weird, cause the datalinks would be nerves connecting individual braincells or something like that...very ineffieci�nt.
But fine, let's say the Queen would be a communcication subroutine rather than a command program (even though I recommend you watch the ending of Endgame pt1 again). |
Don't have a clue what you are saying there. The nanoprobes take over the functions of the brains, install new technology. The connection with the hive mind is made through one of those pieces of technology, installed within the brain.
| Pyro114 wrote: |
Doesn't excactly state the type of virus and it's all speculatory.
They talk about Unim.-01 there, wasn't that the virtual dimension where Seven met other Borg and wasn't that destroyed already? |
Unimatrix 0 would be the place where the borg drones that got the anomaly would meet and the resistance was started by Seven. It was in their dreams.
Unimatrix 01 is the location of the Unicomplex. Not the transwarp hub though.
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:25 pm |
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I think to many variables, that were not either referenced to, mentioned, or even a part of the plan is being said here. In short, to much assumption, and reading into what we saw is being done. The Borg, in short, are far to great to have simply killed off by a virus, or whatever it was called, from the future or not. They had done to much in the few centuries that they have existed to be wiped out like that. As mentioned before, the Borg have faced similar situations, and have shown they can "quarantine' any potential disasters. Certainly, the collective was sent into massive disarray at least, that much can be agreed on by anyone, even MA states that it's doubtful that the Borg were able to stop it before massive damage was done. However, to much has been stated to happen to the collective, or their advancement for this to have beaten them.
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Pyro114
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 99
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| Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:39 am |
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OK, if you guys say so.
But still the 'one ship to assault Earth" seems pretty, very stupid.
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:58 am |
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Man, my spelling was terrible back then.
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Never explain comedy or satire or the ironic comment. Those who get it, get it. Those who don't, never will. -Michael Moore
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Pyro114
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 99
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| Fri Jun 06, 2008 5:18 pm |
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Sorry, I didn't have time to actually read all of that.
You said they use only a single cube cause that's the most efficient way. But how come getting your ass handed to you, twice, is efficient?
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
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Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Sat Jun 07, 2008 2:54 am |
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Incalculatable circumstances. How big is the chance the Federation of Planets is able to stop a Borg Cube from entering the Aplha Quadrant and assimilate earth? Practically nihil. But then came Picard, twice.
Like i said in the other topic: If you have to feed to neighbors dog, a small Chihuahua because they are out of town for the afternoon and you go into the house and the dog surprises you and bites you in the hiney. Somehow it manages to chase you out of the house. You go home and lick your wounds thinking "darn little dog, got me by surprise, i gotta watch out for those teeth", next thing you will be thinking: "Did i just get chased out of a house by a dog no larger then a rat?". You should have known a small dog has teeth too, nothing to be blamed on the dog or its owners. But would you go back to the house alone to finish the job with a different approach, or would you call in a S.W.A.T. team to back you up?
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Never explain comedy or satire or the ironic comment. Those who get it, get it. Those who don't, never will. -Michael Moore
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Pyro114
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 99
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| Sat Jun 07, 2008 6:47 am |
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Incalculatable circumstances. How big is the chance the Federation of Planets is able to stop a Borg Cube from entering the Aplha Quadrant and assimilate earth? Practically nihil. But then came Picard, twice.
[/quote]
Then why would that be nihil?
Sure Picards one hell of an asskicker, but the rest of the fleet aint dumb.
And the Enterprise wasn't the only Sovereign in the fleet (just the only one around).
| lionhead wrote: | | Like i said in the other topic: If you have to feed to neighbors dog, a small Chihuahua because they are out of town for the afternoon and you go into the house and the dog surprises you and bites you in the hiney. Somehow it manages to chase you out of the house. You go home and lick your wounds thinking "darn little dog, got me by surprise, i gotta watch out for those teeth", next thing you will be thinking: "Did i just get chased out of a house by a dog no larger then a rat?". You should have known a small dog has teeth too, nothing to be blamed on the dog or its owners. But would you go back to the house alone to finish the job with a different approach, or would you call in a S.W.A.T. team to back you up? |
I'd try a different approach and that's my entire point.
The new approach was: get to Earth, go back in time and assimilated those neanderthalers.
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"Don't tell people how to do things, tell them what to do and let them surprise you with their results." - George S. Patton
"The journey is more important then the end...or the start."
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
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Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Sat Jun 07, 2008 1:15 pm |
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| Pyro114 wrote: | | Then why would that be nihil? |
Chances of what Picard did is almost Nihil... The just never took it into their calculations. They just came to the conclusion after the first time that what happened won't happen again, and there is no reason to suspect it would have. But picard again stopped them.
| Pyro114 wrote: |
Sure Picards one hell of an asskicker, but the rest of the fleet aint dumb.
And the Enterprise wasn't the only Sovereign in the fleet (just the only one around).
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The fleet was again nearly destroyed to them by that one cube. This time they where able to hold themselves together before the neire fleet was destroyed though.
There is only 1 other Sovereign class starship, the USS Sovereign and i don't think it was at the battle of sector 001. Anyway, there were also Nebula and Akira class starships at the battle, as well as the USS Defiant. A large portion of the fleet had been destroyed in the 3 hours of fighting with the cube. They where only able to damage the outer hull of the cube though. Nothing serious.
I don't think the fleet would have been able to destroy the cube, not by a long shot.
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Never explain comedy or satire or the ironic comment. Those who get it, get it. Those who don't, never will. -Michael Moore
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Pyro114
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 99
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| Sat Jun 07, 2008 4:16 pm |
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Yeah, funny thing that is as well.
Borg ships strength seems to vary ALOT between the episodes and movies.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:22 pm |
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| lionhead wrote: | | Like i said in the other topic: If you have to feed to neighbors dog, a small Chihuahua because they are out of town for the afternoon and you go into the house and the dog surprises you and bites you in the hiney. Somehow it manages to chase you out of the house. You go home and lick your wounds thinking "darn little dog, got me by surprise, i gotta watch out for those teeth", next thing you will be thinking: "Did i just get chased out of a house by a dog no larger then a rat?". You should have known a small dog has teeth too, nothing to be blamed on the dog or its owners. But would you go back to the house alone to finish the job with a different approach, or would you call in a S.W.A.T. team to back you up? |
That's hardly comparable...
This is on a much larger scale. If the Borg can spare dozens of Cubes for one world, surely they could for a world that has managed to resist them multiple times.
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
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| Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:27 am |
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| Pyro114 wrote: | Yeah, funny thing that is as well.
Borg ships strength seems to vary ALOT between the episodes and movies. |
why do you say that?
| Founder wrote: | That's hardly comparable...
This is on a much larger scale. If the Borg can spare dozens of Cubes for one world, surely they could for a world that has managed to resist them multiple times. |
Hm, still same old founder.
Your still using the same old "If they have more cubes, why don't they use them" argument.
But i thought my input on that might have brought up a few questions...
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Pyro114
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 99
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| Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:19 am |
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| lionhead wrote: | | Pyro114 wrote: | Yeah, funny thing that is as well.
Borg ships strength seems to vary ALOT between the episodes and movies. |
why do you say that?
| Founder wrote: | That's hardly comparable...
This is on a much larger scale. If the Borg can spare dozens of Cubes for one world, surely they could for a world that has managed to resist them multiple times. |
Hm, still same old founder.
Your still using the same old "If they have more cubes, why don't they use them" argument.
But i thought my input on that might have brought up a few questions... |
Well, I say that because the first time the Borg appear, Entreprise can't even damage the outer hull. But in VOY they ussually do some damage, I even remember seeing the Delta Flyer damage some systems (before being destroyed).
And Founders argument is alot better then yours.
In one VOY episode we see the Borg assimilate an even more helpless planet than Earth with dozens of ships.
Yet they assault Earth with 1 ship twice and get pwned what? Twice.
And if they could just venture back in time whenever the hex they'd want to, why not do that. Instead of a cube they'd only need a sphere, far more efficient.
-------signature-------
"Don't tell people how to do things, tell them what to do and let them surprise you with their results." - George S. Patton
"The journey is more important then the end...or the start."
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:41 am |
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Well, you don't seem to know you episodes very well. Because when the Enterprise was hurled into the Delta Quadrant and met the cube, they fired on it and caused some very serious damage to its outer hull.
Also, that episode of VOY where a simple species without any warp drive was assimilated by multiple cubes those additional Cubes where present to transport the species away from the planet. I gave that theory in the other topic as well.
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Never explain comedy or satire or the ironic comment. Those who get it, get it. Those who don't, never will. -Michael Moore
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Pyro114
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 99
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| Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:02 am |
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| lionhead wrote: | | Well, you don't seem to know you episodes very well. Because when the Enterprise was hurled into the Delta Quadrant and met the cube, they fired on it and caused some very serious damage to its outer hull. |
Yeah, and then the cube regenerated in a matter of seconds.
-------signature-------
"Don't tell people how to do things, tell them what to do and let them surprise you with their results." - George S. Patton
"The journey is more important then the end...or the start."
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:49 am |
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No, it didn't.
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Never explain comedy or satire or the ironic comment. Those who get it, get it. Those who don't, never will. -Michael Moore
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Pyro114
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 99
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| Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:57 am |
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Well, I'd have to watch the ep again, but I'm pretty sure it regenerated fast
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