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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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 Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:42 am Why Won't God Heal Amputees? |
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| Quote: | | Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst. (Matthew 18:19-20) |
Yet God doesn't heal amputees.
Doesn't matter anymore though, since we can:
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/142
Obviously this very question of Why won't God heal amputees is directed towards Christians for comments not for a scientific explanation, because we all know simple human biology.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:25 pm Re: Why Won't God Heal Amputees? |
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| PrankishSmart wrote: | | Quote: | | Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst. (Matthew 18:19-20) |
Yet God doesn't heal amputees.
Doesn't matter anymore though, since we can:
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/142
Obviously this very question of Why won't God heal amputees is directed towards Christians for comments not for a scientific explanation, because we all know simple human biology. |
I've heard this question, amongst others constantly. It is a fair question, but not one that debunks the concept of a God.
Many people(s) have their own view of who and what God is. Since you're directing it to the Christians, I'll try and answer it as best as I can. I was raised Catholic.
First of all, I don't think the quote means that "whatever you want, you will have". I think you're taking it out of context too. I have to go back and read it.
Second of all, I think if Jesus said that in the context that you think. His apostles would no doubt have attempted to "test" the anything you wish stuff. God isn't a genie and I don't think that Jesus was implying that in that quote. It sounds like he is saying that whatever you wish for on Earth, you shall have in Heaven by God's hands. I could be wrong, but that is how I interpret that.
As for the specific question, I personally do not believe that God directly influences us in that manner. I don't believe that if you pray hard enough, your wounds will regenerate like Claire Bennet, nor do I believe if you're from a sinful city that God will smite it.
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:32 am Re: Why Won't God Heal Amputees? |
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| Founder wrote: | | It sounds like he is saying that whatever you wish for on Earth, you shall have in Heaven by God's hands. I could be wrong, but that is how I interpret that. |
To me this is just saying that since it fails the test in reality we will change our hypothesis so that the thing that must be tested now lies outside the realm of testability.
| Founder wrote: | | As for the specific question, I personally do not believe that God directly influences us in that manner. I don't believe that if you pray hard enough, your wounds will regenerate like Claire Bennet, nor do I believe if you're from a sinful city that God will smite it. |
That does debunk miracle healing stories. So what you are saying is that it is useless using a prayer for healing? What is the purpose of a prayer if there is no influence from God?
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:26 pm Re: Why Won't God Heal Amputees? |
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| PrankishSmart wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | It sounds like he is saying that whatever you wish for on Earth, you shall have in Heaven by God's hands. I could be wrong, but that is how I interpret that. |
To me this is just saying that since it fails the test in reality we will change our hypothesis so that the thing that must be tested now lies outside the realm of testability.
What? I didn't change any hypothesis, because I never said I believed it to be in the way that you thought. Nothing was changed. It was never established to me that saying you believe in Jesus=the immediate granting of any wish you want.
| Founder wrote: | | As for the specific question, I personally do not believe that God directly influences us in that manner. I don't believe that if you pray hard enough, your wounds will regenerate like Claire Bennet, nor do I believe if you're from a sinful city that God will smite it. |
That does debunk miracle healing stories. So what you are saying is that it is useless using a prayer for healing? What is the purpose of a prayer if there is no influence from God? |
It doesn't debunk anything, because I said it was my personal theory on it. I never said that it was absolute truth and I maintain I can be wrong.
No, it isn't useless. A study shows that prayer actually has helped patients, but I think it is more psychological then divine. If it helps them overcome their illness by believing in a God and that the said God is on their side, then I fully support prayer.
What is the purpose of prayer? Um...since when does prayer=personal line to the God-genie/wishing well? Prayer was at one point a time to communicate with your God. It was (in the Catholic religion) a prayer to beg God for forgiveness for you sins. In various religions, prayer has a myriad of uses outside of asking God to let you win the lottery.
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:00 am Re: Why Won't God Heal Amputees? |
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| Founder wrote: | | PrankishSmart wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | It sounds like he is saying that whatever you wish for on Earth, you shall have in Heaven by God's hands. I could be wrong, but that is how I interpret that. |
To me this is just saying that since it fails the test in reality we will change our hypothesis so that the thing that must be tested now lies outside the realm of testability.
What? I didn't change any hypothesis, because I never said I believed it to be in the way that you thought. Nothing was changed. It was never established to me that saying you believe in Jesus=the immediate granting of any wish you want.
| Founder wrote: | | As for the specific question, I personally do not believe that God directly influences us in that manner. I don't believe that if you pray hard enough, your wounds will regenerate like Claire Bennet, nor do I believe if you're from a sinful city that God will smite it. |
That does debunk miracle healing stories. So what you are saying is that it is useless using a prayer for healing? What is the purpose of a prayer if there is no influence from God? |
It doesn't debunk anything, because I said it was my personal theory on it. I never said that it was absolute truth and I maintain I can be wrong.
No, it isn't useless. A study shows that prayer actually has helped patients, but I think it is more psychological then divine. If it helps them overcome their illness by believing in a God and that the said God is on their side, then I fully support prayer.
What is the purpose of prayer? Um...since when does prayer=personal line to the God-genie/wishing well? Prayer was at one point a time to communicate with your God. It was (in the Catholic religion) a prayer to beg God for forgiveness for you sins. In various religions, prayer has a myriad of uses outside of asking God to let you win the lottery. |
The way I see this popular question that Atheists ask Christians is that our biology does not possess the ability to reheal or regrow limbs, but to recover from some illness. Some who do prey do get results, and I can see how this could seem like a miracle, but the wildcard here is they are in the hospital at the same time receiving medical treatment. If we were to do a study of people receiving a prayer for an illness while receiving medical treatment, vs. people receiving a prayer for an illness while NOT receiving medical treatment, lets then view the results.
IIRC, 3 independent studies were done on affects of prayers, one in the 80s that seemed to show that prayer does work positively, one in the 90s that seemed to show that prayer actually works negatively, and one done very recently that showed no real difference. I always see that the Christians will cite the positive results study in their argument, and atheists will cite the negative one in their arguments.
If it doesn't debunk anything, then what do amputees just receive the short end of the straw it seems to me?
Some illnesses get cured. Others don't. Cancer gets cured sometimes. But amputated limbs don't regrow in humans. They do in salamanders.
All this can be easily explained if God doesn't exist. It has to do with the biology of humans (and salamanders). No further explanation required.
But if a God exists, who is omnipotent, then this God willingly chooses to cure some cancers (but not all), regrow limbs in salamanders, but never regrow�s limbs in humans. This God, in other words, picks and chooses which types of illnesses/injuries He will cure.
Why?
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:39 pm Re: Why Won't God Heal Amputees? |
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| PrankishSmart wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | PrankishSmart wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | It sounds like he is saying that whatever you wish for on Earth, you shall have in Heaven by God's hands. I could be wrong, but that is how I interpret that. |
To me this is just saying that since it fails the test in reality we will change our hypothesis so that the thing that must be tested now lies outside the realm of testability.
What? I didn't change any hypothesis, because I never said I believed it to be in the way that you thought. Nothing was changed. It was never established to me that saying you believe in Jesus=the immediate granting of any wish you want.
| Founder wrote: | | As for the specific question, I personally do not believe that God directly influences us in that manner. I don't believe that if you pray hard enough, your wounds will regenerate like Claire Bennet, nor do I believe if you're from a sinful city that God will smite it. |
That does debunk miracle healing stories. So what you are saying is that it is useless using a prayer for healing? What is the purpose of a prayer if there is no influence from God? |
It doesn't debunk anything, because I said it was my personal theory on it. I never said that it was absolute truth and I maintain I can be wrong.
No, it isn't useless. A study shows that prayer actually has helped patients, but I think it is more psychological then divine. If it helps them overcome their illness by believing in a God and that the said God is on their side, then I fully support prayer.
What is the purpose of prayer? Um...since when does prayer=personal line to the God-genie/wishing well? Prayer was at one point a time to communicate with your God. It was (in the Catholic religion) a prayer to beg God for forgiveness for you sins. In various religions, prayer has a myriad of uses outside of asking God to let you win the lottery. |
The way I see this popular question that Atheists ask Christians is that our biology does not possess the ability to reheal or regrow limbs, but to recover from some illness. Some who do prey do get results, and I can see how this could seem like a miracle, but the wildcard here is they are in the hospital at the same time receiving medical treatment. If we were to do a study of people receiving a prayer for an illness while receiving medical treatment, vs. people receiving a prayer for an illness while NOT receiving medical treatment, lets then view the results.
IIRC, 3 independent studies were done on affects of prayers, one in the 80s that seemed to show that prayer does work positively, one in the 90s that seemed to show that prayer actually works negatively, and one done very recently that showed no real difference. I always see that the Christians will cite the positive results study in their argument, and atheists will cite the negative one in their arguments.
If it doesn't debunk anything, then what do amputees just receive the short end of the straw it seems to me?
Some illnesses get cured. Others don't. Cancer gets cured sometimes. But amputated limbs don't regrow in humans. They do in salamanders.
All this can be easily explained if God doesn't exist. It has to do with the biology of humans (and salamanders). No further explanation required.
But if a God exists, who is omnipotent, then this God willingly chooses to cure some cancers (but not all), regrow limbs in salamanders, but never regrow�s limbs in humans. This God, in other words, picks and chooses which types of illnesses/injuries He will cure.
Why? |
Ok...it seems you're picking and choosing my post and ignoring a large majority.
As I've already said...I don't believe that prayer is used to ask for wishes (or shouldn't be). I don't believe that God affects us in that way. So in my eyes, God doesn't heal sometimes and God heals other times. I don't think either is done.
So it doesn't debunk anything because I'm not making the argument that he does heal at times and doesn't heal at other times. You seem bent on trying to force that argument on me. As for prayer, I think you're confused. I'm not citing that prayer helping certain patients is a clear sign of God's works. As I said, I beleive it's psychological, not divine intervention.
So your question is better suited towards someone that believes he does. I was trying to answer it based of off what I believed. Perhaps your question was aimed more towards the fundementalist type...
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robbiewebster
Rear Admiral
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 2594
Location: Rochester, New York
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| Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:58 pm Re: Why Won't God Heal Amputees? |
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| PrankishSmart wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | PrankishSmart wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | It sounds like he is saying that whatever you wish for on Earth, you shall have in Heaven by God's hands. I could be wrong, but that is how I interpret that. |
To me this is just saying that since it fails the test in reality we will change our hypothesis so that the thing that must be tested now lies outside the realm of testability.
What? I didn't change any hypothesis, because I never said I believed it to be in the way that you thought. Nothing was changed. It was never established to me that saying you believe in Jesus=the immediate granting of any wish you want.
| Founder wrote: | | As for the specific question, I personally do not believe that God directly influences us in that manner. I don't believe that if you pray hard enough, your wounds will regenerate like Claire Bennet, nor do I believe if you're from a sinful city that God will smite it. |
That does debunk miracle healing stories. So what you are saying is that it is useless using a prayer for healing? What is the purpose of a prayer if there is no influence from God? |
It doesn't debunk anything, because I said it was my personal theory on it. I never said that it was absolute truth and I maintain I can be wrong.
No, it isn't useless. A study shows that prayer actually has helped patients, but I think it is more psychological then divine. If it helps them overcome their illness by believing in a God and that the said God is on their side, then I fully support prayer.
What is the purpose of prayer? Um...since when does prayer=personal line to the God-genie/wishing well? Prayer was at one point a time to communicate with your God. It was (in the Catholic religion) a prayer to beg God for forgiveness for you sins. In various religions, prayer has a myriad of uses outside of asking God to let you win the lottery. |
The way I see this popular question that Atheists ask Christians is that our biology does not possess the ability to reheal or regrow limbs, but to recover from some illness. Some who do prey do get results, and I can see how this could seem like a miracle, but the wildcard here is they are in the hospital at the same time receiving medical treatment. If we were to do a study of people receiving a prayer for an illness while receiving medical treatment, vs. people receiving a prayer for an illness while NOT receiving medical treatment, lets then view the results.
IIRC, 3 independent studies were done on affects of prayers, one in the 80s that seemed to show that prayer does work positively, one in the 90s that seemed to show that prayer actually works negatively, and one done very recently that showed no real difference. I always see that the Christians will cite the positive results study in their argument, and atheists will cite the negative one in their arguments.
If it doesn't debunk anything, then what do amputees just receive the short end of the straw it seems to me?
Some illnesses get cured. Others don't. Cancer gets cured sometimes. But amputated limbs don't regrow in humans. They do in salamanders.
All this can be easily explained if God doesn't exist. It has to do with the biology of humans (and salamanders). No further explanation required.
But if a God exists, who is omnipotent, then this God willingly chooses to cure some cancers (but not all), regrow limbs in salamanders, but never regrow�s limbs in humans. This God, in other words, picks and chooses which types of illnesses/injuries He will cure.
Why? |
Let me start by asking you this question. If you don't believe that life on this planet was created by God, where did it come from?
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squiggy
Stooge Two
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 3007
Location: Messing with the fabric of Video Game realities. I'll summon Shiva on you! I SWEAR!
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| Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:20 pm |
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"Evolution" - A term you might want to look up, Robbie.
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Valathous
The Canadian, eh
Joined: 31 Aug 2002
Posts: 19074
Location: Centre Bell
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| Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:42 pm Re: Why Won't God Heal Amputees? |
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| robbiewebster wrote: | | Let me start by asking you this question. If you don't believe that life on this planet was created by God, where did it come from? |
Clearly we came from Monkees.
I'd like to think it's a happy median. Both monkeys and a force greater than any mind can comprehend.
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:50 am Re: Why Won't God Heal Amputees? |
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| Founder wrote: | | PrankishSmart wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | PrankishSmart wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | It sounds like he is saying that whatever you wish for on Earth, you shall have in Heaven by God's hands. I could be wrong, but that is how I interpret that. |
To me this is just saying that since it fails the test in reality we will change our hypothesis so that the thing that must be tested now lies outside the realm of testability.
What? I didn't change any hypothesis, because I never said I believed it to be in the way that you thought. Nothing was changed. It was never established to me that saying you believe in Jesus=the immediate granting of any wish you want.
| Founder wrote: | | As for the specific question, I personally do not believe that God directly influences us in that manner. I don't believe that if you pray hard enough, your wounds will regenerate like Claire Bennet, nor do I believe if you're from a sinful city that God will smite it. |
That does debunk miracle healing stories. So what you are saying is that it is useless using a prayer for healing? What is the purpose of a prayer if there is no influence from God? |
It doesn't debunk anything, because I said it was my personal theory on it. I never said that it was absolute truth and I maintain I can be wrong.
No, it isn't useless. A study shows that prayer actually has helped patients, but I think it is more psychological then divine. If it helps them overcome their illness by believing in a God and that the said God is on their side, then I fully support prayer.
What is the purpose of prayer? Um...since when does prayer=personal line to the God-genie/wishing well? Prayer was at one point a time to communicate with your God. It was (in the Catholic religion) a prayer to beg God for forgiveness for you sins. In various religions, prayer has a myriad of uses outside of asking God to let you win the lottery. |
The way I see this popular question that Atheists ask Christians is that our biology does not possess the ability to reheal or regrow limbs, but to recover from some illness. Some who do prey do get results, and I can see how this could seem like a miracle, but the wildcard here is they are in the hospital at the same time receiving medical treatment. If we were to do a study of people receiving a prayer for an illness while receiving medical treatment, vs. people receiving a prayer for an illness while NOT receiving medical treatment, lets then view the results.
IIRC, 3 independent studies were done on affects of prayers, one in the 80s that seemed to show that prayer does work positively, one in the 90s that seemed to show that prayer actually works negatively, and one done very recently that showed no real difference. I always see that the Christians will cite the positive results study in their argument, and atheists will cite the negative one in their arguments.
If it doesn't debunk anything, then what do amputees just receive the short end of the straw it seems to me?
Some illnesses get cured. Others don't. Cancer gets cured sometimes. But amputated limbs don't regrow in humans. They do in salamanders.
All this can be easily explained if God doesn't exist. It has to do with the biology of humans (and salamanders). No further explanation required.
But if a God exists, who is omnipotent, then this God willingly chooses to cure some cancers (but not all), regrow limbs in salamanders, but never regrow�s limbs in humans. This God, in other words, picks and chooses which types of illnesses/injuries He will cure.
Why? |
Ok...it seems you're picking and choosing my post and ignoring a large majority.
As I've already said...I don't believe that prayer is used to ask for wishes (or shouldn't be). I don't believe that God affects us in that way. So in my eyes, God doesn't heal sometimes and God heals other times. I don't think either is done.
So it doesn't debunk anything because I'm not making the argument that he does heal at times and doesn't heal at other times. You seem bent on trying to force that argument on me. As for prayer, I think you're confused. I'm not citing that prayer helping certain patients is a clear sign of God's works. As I said, I beleive it's psychological, not divine intervention.
So your question is better suited towards someone that believes he does. I was trying to answer it based of off what I believed. Perhaps your question was aimed more towards the fundementalist type... |
I understand your position now, and I always enjoy a good debate.
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:52 am Re: Why Won't God Heal Amputees? |
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| robbiewebster wrote: | | PrankishSmart wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | PrankishSmart wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | It sounds like he is saying that whatever you wish for on Earth, you shall have in Heaven by God's hands. I could be wrong, but that is how I interpret that. |
To me this is just saying that since it fails the test in reality we will change our hypothesis so that the thing that must be tested now lies outside the realm of testability.
What? I didn't change any hypothesis, because I never said I believed it to be in the way that you thought. Nothing was changed. It was never established to me that saying you believe in Jesus=the immediate granting of any wish you want.
| Founder wrote: | | As for the specific question, I personally do not believe that God directly influences us in that manner. I don't believe that if you pray hard enough, your wounds will regenerate like Claire Bennet, nor do I believe if you're from a sinful city that God will smite it. |
That does debunk miracle healing stories. So what you are saying is that it is useless using a prayer for healing? What is the purpose of a prayer if there is no influence from God? |
It doesn't debunk anything, because I said it was my personal theory on it. I never said that it was absolute truth and I maintain I can be wrong.
No, it isn't useless. A study shows that prayer actually has helped patients, but I think it is more psychological then divine. If it helps them overcome their illness by believing in a God and that the said God is on their side, then I fully support prayer.
What is the purpose of prayer? Um...since when does prayer=personal line to the God-genie/wishing well? Prayer was at one point a time to communicate with your God. It was (in the Catholic religion) a prayer to beg God for forgiveness for you sins. In various religions, prayer has a myriad of uses outside of asking God to let you win the lottery. |
The way I see this popular question that Atheists ask Christians is that our biology does not possess the ability to reheal or regrow limbs, but to recover from some illness. Some who do prey do get results, and I can see how this could seem like a miracle, but the wildcard here is they are in the hospital at the same time receiving medical treatment. If we were to do a study of people receiving a prayer for an illness while receiving medical treatment, vs. people receiving a prayer for an illness while NOT receiving medical treatment, lets then view the results.
IIRC, 3 independent studies were done on affects of prayers, one in the 80s that seemed to show that prayer does work positively, one in the 90s that seemed to show that prayer actually works negatively, and one done very recently that showed no real difference. I always see that the Christians will cite the positive results study in their argument, and atheists will cite the negative one in their arguments.
If it doesn't debunk anything, then what do amputees just receive the short end of the straw it seems to me?
Some illnesses get cured. Others don't. Cancer gets cured sometimes. But amputated limbs don't regrow in humans. They do in salamanders.
All this can be easily explained if God doesn't exist. It has to do with the biology of humans (and salamanders). No further explanation required.
But if a God exists, who is omnipotent, then this God willingly chooses to cure some cancers (but not all), regrow limbs in salamanders, but never regrow�s limbs in humans. This God, in other words, picks and chooses which types of illnesses/injuries He will cure.
Why? |
Let me start by asking you this question. If you don't believe that life on this planet was created by God, where did it come from? |
Create a new topic for that if you wish, don't try and hijack this topic by changing the topic from something you cannot answer to something NO ONE can factually answer.
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robbiewebster
Rear Admiral
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 2594
Location: Rochester, New York
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| Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:28 pm |
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| squiggy wrote: | | "Evolution" - A term you might want to look up, Robbie. |
Mathematical definition of impossibility - - > anything that has a 1 in 10^20 chance of happening.
According to scientists this is the probability of just two non-living molecules combining in any way to form living matter - - > 1 in 10^2000
Now what do you think the chances of an entire planet being inhabited by living organisms which were formed by the random combination of billions upon billions of non-living particles.
By the way, try not to be so insulting to me in the future. I know more about the theory of evolution than you might think.
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squiggy
Stooge Two
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 3007
Location: Messing with the fabric of Video Game realities. I'll summon Shiva on you! I SWEAR!
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| Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:42 pm |
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| robbiewebster wrote: | | squiggy wrote: | | "Evolution" - A term you might want to look up, Robbie. |
Mathematical definition of impossibility - - > anything that has a 1 in 10^20 chance of happening.
According to scientists this is the probability of just two non-living molecules combining in any way to form living matter - - > 1 in 10^2000
Now what do you think the chances of an entire planet being inhabited by living organisms which were formed by the random combination of billions upon billions of non-living particles.
By the way, try not to be so insulting to me in the future. I know more about the theory of evolution than you might think. |
Some argue that evolution is theoretical, but I'd rather believe it, then the concept that some 'all powerful' bieng who supposedly meddles in our' everyday lives, and yet at the same time, refuses to help those in need. From just simplistic everyday observations, if there is a god, he/she/it has a fantastic sense of humor. And I was just pointing out that there are other alternatives to religion, if you took offence, that's not my problem.
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Valathous
The Canadian, eh
Joined: 31 Aug 2002
Posts: 19074
Location: Centre Bell
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| Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:11 pm |
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| robbiewebster wrote: | | squiggy wrote: | | "Evolution" - A term you might want to look up, Robbie. |
Mathematical definition of impossibility - - > anything that has a 1 in 10^20 chance of happening.
According to scientists this is the probability of just two non-living molecules combining in any way to form living matter - - > 1 in 10^2000
Now what do you think the chances of an entire planet being inhabited by living organisms which were formed by the random combination of billions upon billions of non-living particles.
By the way, try not to be so insulting to me in the future. I know more about the theory of evolution than you might think. |
I find any odds much more probable than the idea of some omnipotent being having been there for all eternity that begot itself creating the university by himself. With all those molecules, especially those in the primordial ooze, those molecules were bound to meet up and create life.
But as for the topic question, I cannot truly give an answer since A) I do not believe in a god, and B) There is a passage in the bible one of my teachers talked about, I think it's Job, about god killing his family, destroying his home, giving him diseases to test his faith and when finally questioned after all of that, he says "why?" and the answer he gets is that god doesn't have to explain why he does something, he is god and shouldn't be questioned. How merciful. Something tells me he isn't about to give an 8 year old lawn mower accident child his arm back since losing a limb is another 'test of faith'.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:08 am |
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| squiggy wrote: | | robbiewebster wrote: | | squiggy wrote: | | "Evolution" - A term you might want to look up, Robbie. |
Mathematical definition of impossibility - - > anything that has a 1 in 10^20 chance of happening.
According to scientists this is the probability of just two non-living molecules combining in any way to form living matter - - > 1 in 10^2000
Now what do you think the chances of an entire planet being inhabited by living organisms which were formed by the random combination of billions upon billions of non-living particles.
By the way, try not to be so insulting to me in the future. I know more about the theory of evolution than you might think. |
Some argue that evolution is theoretical, but I'd rather believe it, then the concept that some 'all powerful' bieng who supposedly meddles in our' everyday lives, and yet at the same time, refuses to help those in need. From just simplistic everyday observations, if there is a god, he/she/it has a fantastic sense of humor. And I was just pointing out that there are other alternatives to religion, if you took offence, that's not my problem. |
That's an interesting statement, squiggy. That you'd 'rather believe' it, not that you believe it because it's absolute proven fact. Pretty much the same reason, (in your view), that Robbie believes in God?
If you knew anything of the traditional sense of God, there is no 'meddling in our every day lives'. And why would God have to have a fantastic sense of humor? The common conception is that God gave man free will, so any problems mankind has, we brought on ourselves.
Job never said why. I'm by no means a Bible scholar, but I have read it, and that doesn't happen, the whole point of that book is that Job never loses faith, no matter how bad things get. (which we do in every day life, but fail to recognize)
And last I knew, Catholics still believed in miracles, but for some reason had to have some group of priests verify them. [from what I read, it's for authenticity, but if you believe in a God, then that'd be kind of... faithless, IMO]
Soooooooooorry, PS.
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:14 am |
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| Theresa wrote: |
And last I knew, Catholics still believed in miracles, but for some reason had to have some group of priests verify them. [from what I read, it's for authenticity, but if you believe in a God, then that'd be kind of... faithless, IMO]
Soooooooooorry, PS. |
The Church does believe that miracles are still occurring, and perhaps private revelation as well. Usually, the local Bishop will show approval or disapproval only to ensure that the miracle/private revelation is True to the teaching of Our Lord and is not something from the father of lies. The Church does not want false teaching or fake private revelations gaining devotion or belief among Christ's faithful. For more info on the Church's teaching on private revelations, I have provided a link.
http://ewtn.com/expert/answers/apparitions.htm
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:26 am |
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| Theresa wrote: | | The common conception is that God gave man free will, so any problems mankind has, we brought on ourselves. |
I find that highly questionable historically. Before it was mainly centred about the wrath of god and fear of god. People were turned away by the restrictions and discriminations in the bible so Christianity then instead adopted the "God loves everyone" approach.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:08 pm |
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| PrankishSmart wrote: | | Theresa wrote: | | The common conception is that God gave man free will, so any problems mankind has, we brought on ourselves. |
I find that highly questionable historically. Before it was mainly centred about the wrath of god and fear of god. People were turned away by the restrictions and discriminations in the bible so Christianity then instead adopted the "God loves everyone" approach. |
Well thank you so much for that brief synopsis of "A History of Christianity According to PrankishSmart". This is in fact false. Early Christianity, as can easily be seen through early Christian art actually tended to focus on Christ as the Good Shepherd. Also I can think of a Church Father's writing from the 5th century about how we have free will.(Of course, we could just look at the Bible too.) The idea is that if we did not have free will, then we could not truly love God, and He could not truly love us.
The view of religion as restrictions and discriminations imposed by God to evoke fear is simply childish. As every good parent imposes rules and restrictions (many that the children do not understand and do not wish to follow) upon their own children so that they may grow up to be healthy physically and mentally, God imposes restrictions because in fact he does love everyone (as you and the Bible say) and wishes that we will grow in spiritual health.
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:43 pm |
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If I may put in my two sense, I think it's funny that if God is so concerned with all of us having better souls, why didn't he make us with great souls? God of Christianity seems to have an ego complex, if he really needs us to be around to worship him, or to keep him company. That implies that he is not perfect in himself. I also think it's odd that God would make his "word" the bible, which is highly questionable because of it being translated, re-translated, and held by a few authority figures over the years. Not everyone has access to the bible anyway, so why is Christianity the standard? What about good Jews, good Muslims, kind atheists? So he's going to send them to hell? If God is that childish and conceited, then I'd rather burn in hell.
Of course, I don't believe there is a hell, even though I believe there is an overwhelming Spirit, Is, or whatever you want to call it--a spiritual side of life. I don't think God (or The Is, The Spirit, etc.) is concerned with worship. I don't think he/she/it is concerned with the world. I think we are concerned with the world, and the afterlife (if there is one) is up to you. I think people who want immortal souls will have them. People who don't might just die. Souls can go anywhere they please, as the soul is a lesser god in itself...
My views may sound crazy, but it's no more crazy than religions, and my beliefs don't prevent me from believing in science, or from being open to all walks of life. And if I'm wrong, it's okay. I still will have lived my life as I believe is best, working in the world as science would dictate, with the hope of something after. There is no harm in that.
And if Christianity is correct in all aspects of God and heaven, I will happily go to hell.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:31 am |
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| Arellia wrote: | If I may put in my two sense, I think it's funny that if God is so concerned with all of us having better souls, why didn't he make us with great souls? God of Christianity seems to have an ego complex, if he really needs us to be around to worship him, or to keep him company. That implies that he is not perfect in himself. I also think it's odd that God would make his "word" the bible, which is highly questionable because of it being translated, re-translated, and held by a few authority figures over the years. Not everyone has access to the bible anyway, so why is Christianity the standard? What about good Jews, good Muslims, kind atheists? So he's going to send them to hell? If God is that childish and conceited, then I'd rather burn in hell.
Of course, I don't believe there is a hell, even though I believe there is an overwhelming Spirit, Is, or whatever you want to call it--a spiritual side of life. I don't think God (or The Is, The Spirit, etc.) is concerned with worship. I don't think he/she/it is concerned with the world. I think we are concerned with the world, and the afterlife (if there is one) is up to you. I think people who want immortal souls will have them. People who don't might just die. Souls can go anywhere they please, as the soul is a lesser god in itself...
My views may sound crazy, but it's no more crazy than religions, and my beliefs don't prevent me from believing in science, or from being open to all walks of life. And if I'm wrong, it's okay. I still will have lived my life as I believe is best, working in the world as science would dictate, with the hope of something after. There is no harm in that.
And if Christianity is correct in all aspects of God and heaven, I will happily go to hell. |
God is love, which is why mankind was created. Love must go outside of itself and therefore, God created man to love. He did create us perfectly, however. Even better, he gave us free will so that we could love Him in return, and experience the pinnacle and most joyous thing of existence. Without free will, we could not choose to love God in return. However, it is with that free will that we chose to turn and separate ourselves from God. However, God so loves us that He still has given us a chance at redemption even though we have infinitely offended He who is perfection. He has given us a chance to be in full communion with Him and a chance to see the One Who is Love. If you do not want that though, you of course cannot, and will not be forced into it. God lets us choose whether we want to be intimately with Him forever, or to be separated from Him.
Furthermore, the God of Christianity has an ego complex? He allowed us to commit Deicide against Him and physically spit upon His face. I think your choice of words is far from correct.
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squiggy
Stooge Two
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 3007
Location: Messing with the fabric of Video Game realities. I'll summon Shiva on you! I SWEAR!
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| Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:28 am |
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| Puck wrote: | | Arellia wrote: | If I may put in my two sense, I think it's funny that if God is so concerned with all of us having better souls, why didn't he make us with great souls? God of Christianity seems to have an ego complex, if he really needs us to be around to worship him, or to keep him company. That implies that he is not perfect in himself. I also think it's odd that God would make his "word" the bible, which is highly questionable because of it being translated, re-translated, and held by a few authority figures over the years. Not everyone has access to the bible anyway, so why is Christianity the standard? What about good Jews, good Muslims, kind atheists? So he's going to send them to hell? If God is that childish and conceited, then I'd rather burn in hell.
Of course, I don't believe there is a hell, even though I believe there is an overwhelming Spirit, Is, or whatever you want to call it--a spiritual side of life. I don't think God (or The Is, The Spirit, etc.) is concerned with worship. I don't think he/she/it is concerned with the world. I think we are concerned with the world, and the afterlife (if there is one) is up to you. I think people who want immortal souls will have them. People who don't might just die. Souls can go anywhere they please, as the soul is a lesser god in itself...
My views may sound crazy, but it's no more crazy than religions, and my beliefs don't prevent me from believing in science, or from being open to all walks of life. And if I'm wrong, it's okay. I still will have lived my life as I believe is best, working in the world as science would dictate, with the hope of something after. There is no harm in that.
And if Christianity is correct in all aspects of God and heaven, I will happily go to hell. |
God is love, which is why mankind was created. Love must go outside of itself and therefore, God created man to love. He did create us perfectly, however. Even better, he gave us free will so that we could love Him in return, and experience the pinnacle and most joyous thing of existence. Without free will, we could not choose to love God in return. However, it is with that free will that we chose to turn and separate ourselves from God. However, God so loves us that He still has given us a chance at redemption even though we have infinitely offended He who is perfection. He has given us a chance to be in full communion with Him and a chance to see the One Who is Love. If you do not want that though, you of course cannot, and will not be forced into it. God lets us choose whether we want to be intimately with Him forever, or to be separated from Him.
Uhm... okay then. I'll pretend I actually managed to follow that without having to re-read it 19 times, trying to unloop that one.
Furthermore, the God of Christianity has an ego complex? He allowed us to commit Deicide against Him and physically spit upon His face. I think your choice of words is far from correct. |
I think your' choice of phrasing is a rather circular argument.
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:52 am |
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| Puck wrote: | | God imposes restrictions because in fact he does love everyone (as you and the Bible say) |
The concept of 'God loves everyone' is actually a new concept to Christianity. Also God's love is not unconditional. It is conditional based of your faith and beliefs in him. So in actual fact, God does not love everyone. He just loves most Christians.
Isn't it amazing though how a topic that cannot be answered by Christans can get highjacked so quickly to turn away from the original question.
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Sat Apr 19, 2008 4:38 am |
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I'm perfectly content with the God I feel I believe in. But a god that hates some people and would cause them eternal pain because they didn't bow at his feet properly? I think that's ego. He requires you to revere him and obey his every word just because it's what he told you to do. If I were all powerful and all that, I don't think I would require people to love and obey me. I think someone who's all-powerful and perfect would ideally have high enough self-esteem not to need it. My mother tried to force me to love her and obey her every word, and she was an awful person too. I made an informed choice after 17 years of being trapped in at least 12 different kinds of churches, and after being a devout Christian for a very long time. It stopped working for me when I learned that so many things I thought were dastardly and evil were not evil, and god supposedly punishes some of these people. Just didn't add up, and doesn't, for me. Probably never will. I can't feel like that towards people.
However, I don't think there's anything wrong with Christians, again. It works for them, doesn't work for me. Atheism works for some people, or Budhism, and that's good; what pleases you to believe, so long as you're not hurting others directly, is fine by me. I don't have a problem with Christians that honestly just try to do good in the world... how could I? We have similar goals in many ways, aside from the needing to convert people thing. I have my reasoning for not believing in that kind of god... I'm not necessarily saying anyone else has to feel the same.
I hope I answered the actual question directly by saying that I feel as deists and don't think god really concerns himself with this world too much >.> . That was the point of my post with a lot added in.  I take a page from David Hume and William James.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:23 pm |
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| PrankishSmart wrote: | | Puck wrote: | | God imposes restrictions because in fact he does love everyone (as you and the Bible say) |
The concept of 'God loves everyone' is actually a new concept to Christianity. Also God's love is not unconditional. It is conditional based of your faith and beliefs in him. So in actual fact, God does not love everyone. He just loves most Christians.
Isn't it amazing though how a topic that cannot be answered by Christans can get highjacked so quickly to turn away from the original question. |
Ok. I know a lady, her name is Rhonda. She was diagnosed with leukemia, I don't recall which kind exactly. Her white blood cell count tanked, she had virtually no immune system, wasn't allowed contact with others w/out gowns, etc... She was prayed for (repeatedly), the leukemia is gone. She was treated at Eastern Maine Medical Center in Bangor, Maine. The doctors recorded that they "have no explanation" as to what happened. (I volunteered at the clinic for cancer and blood disorders and had access to her hard copy files, granted I couldn't discuss them w/ anyone but her).
So, are you going to tell me (and them) what happened? Was it God? Was it her belief, or was it medical treatment? (to the last, her doctor says no).
It seems to me that this question is asked with the assumption that our will is always consistent with God's will. Even Hollywood figured out that'd be a bad idea with their comedy Bruce Almighty. (When Bruce simply says "yes" to everyone).
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:59 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | | she had virtually no immune system |
What exactly do you mean when you say virtually no immune system.
Do you believe in miracles because you want to believe in them.
I don't consider anecdotal evidence as proof.
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